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Joebada

Ready to buy DPMS GEN II, but which one?

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Gentleman,

 

Please help me decide between the Recon and the MOE.

 

The only differences between the two seem to be the barrel and the handguard (and of course the price).

 

The Recon weighs 1.25 lbs more than the standard MOE (8.5 lbs vs 7.25), and I'm assuming most of that weight is due to the heavier barrel on the Recon. Both barrels are 16", but the Recon barrel is 416 stainless bead blasted and is closer to a bull barrel, while the MOE has a lightweight 4150 chromelined barrel.

 

I know a heavier barrel will tend to have longer life, slightly better accuracy and not heat up as quickly when running a lot of rounds through it, but is this really worth the extra weight in the GEN II platform?

 

How else will the heavier 416 stainless differ from the lightweight 4150 chromelined?

 

How much longer will this heavier barrel on the Recon really last, how much better will it really shoot, how much longer can you run it hot without the groups widening significantly? 

 

Has anyone here shot both? How does the recoil compare?

 

I don't care about the quad rail on the Recon, as the only accessories I plan to deploy are a scope and a bipod, so it really all comes down to the barrel and whether that extra weight (and price) is worth it or not.

 

I will be using the gun to still hunt whitetails and hogs, target shoot at my club's 600 yard range and it will also serve as my sole defensive / battle rifle.

 

I can buy the MOE on Buds for $1,184 and figure the Recon will cost about $200 more, but haven't found one in stock at that price yet.

 

Thank you very much for reading and for any advice / insights you may offer. I look forward to owning my first AR and participating on this forum.

 

Thank you,

Joe

Edited by Joebada

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The Recon weighs 1.25 lbs more than the standard MOE (8.5 lbs vs 7.25), and I'm assuming most of that weight is due to the heavier barrel on the Recon. Both barrels are 16", but the Recon barrel is 416 stainless bead blasted and is closer to a bull barrel, while the MOE has a lightweight 4150 chromelined barrel.

The barrel and hand guard are heavier on the Recon. It's not a bull profile though. The barrel has a heavy profile under the hand guard and slims at the gas block.

I know a heavier barrel will tend to have longer life, slightly better accuracy and not heat up as quickly when running a lot of rounds through it, but is this really worth the extra weight in the GEN II platform?

 

How else will the heavier 416 stainless differ from the lightweight 4150 chromelined?

 

How much longer will this heavier barrel on the Recon really last, how much better will it really shoot, how much longer can you run it hot without the groups widening significantly?

A heavier barrel might not have a longer life, but it should be more precise due to increased rigidity and maintain that precision for longer.

The 416R stainless of the Recon should also increase the precision over the chrome-lined MOE. It's hard to say how long they'll both last though (I wouldn't guess one wears drastically faster assuming not rapid firing all the time).

Has anyone here shot both? How does the recoil compare?

While I haven't shot the G2 MOE, it must have a harsher recoil compared to the Recon due to the shorter, carbine, gas system on it. The Recon doesn't have bad recoil to me, but it can be improved. I have shot a LR308 Oracle from DPMS, which also has a carbine-length gas system and the recoil was much harsher than I like. I placed it in the "this isn't much fun to shoot" category.

I don't care about the quad rail on the Recon, as the only accessories I plan to deploy are a scope and a bipod, so it really all comes down to the barrel and whether that extra weight (and price) is worth it or not.

The Recon also comes with the 2-stage trigger. It's not half bad!

 

I will be using the gun to still hunt whitetails and hogs, target shoot at my club's 600 yard range and it will also serve as my sole defensive / battle rifle.

What kind of accuracy and precision are you looking for at 600yds?

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Thanks Farkle, really appreciate the detailed response.

 

I thought they both had the 2 stage trigger, thanks for pointing out they don't. I too have heard the 2 stage DPMS trigger is one of the better production AR triggers out there.

 

I didn't realize the barrel slims down on the recon either, good to know.

 

We use a standard 600 yard NRA target, and I'd like to be able to keep it in the 10 ring (12") with practice.

 

I wonder about the recoil on the 7.25# gun also, especially on a semi-auto where the ability to take a quick follow up shot can be important. I wish I could shoot both before deciding.

 

What did you pay for your recon if you don't mind me asking?

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What is the difference between mid length and carbine length gas systems?

 

Both barrels are 16" long, why two different systems?

 

Thanks,

Joe

Edited by Joebada

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We use a standard 600 yard NRA target, and I'd like to be able to keep it in the 10 ring (12") with practice.

You'll probably want the Recon barrel then. 

I wonder about the recoil on the 7.25# gun also, especially on a semi-auto where the ability to take a quick follow up shot can be important. I wish I could shoot both before deciding.

The recoil on both can be lessened with Heavybuffers.com heavy buffer. The Recon doesn't really need more than the CAR-10, but the MOE might be better suited with the CAR-10 XH. I stuck a CAR-10 buffer in my friend's Oracle, and it's much better, but could still benefit from some more weight.

 

What did you pay for your recon if you don't mind me asking?

My buddy (bmoney on these forums) bought it for about $1600 IIRC. Not that it's terribly applicable since we pay California prices (and most places in CA won't stock them because they think that they're on the CA AW ban list because the receiver says Panther Arms on it).

What is the difference between mid length and carbine length gas systems?

Both barrels are 16" long, why two different systems?

The carbine gas system is shorter and the mid-lengh is further down the barrel (longer). This means the pressure at the gas port is much higher with a carbine gas system as opposed to a mid-length. I'm not sure why anybody these days would make a carbine gassed barrel...

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Why are you stuck on the DPMS?. I built an aero 16". SS barrel for less than $1600 with an amazing Giessele SSA-E trigger, super slick cryptic coatings BCG, BCM charging handle, Magpul stock, VG Precision Gamma muzzle brake.

FBF1E1CD-63C4-4509-B7A3-D2DCB65C822A_zps

E08C4BE0-95A4-4A72-BAC0-911DE463531D_zps

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Thanks Farkle, really appreciate it.

 

Spartan,

 

I'm not stuck on DPMS, it just seemed like the best option that I could afford. I don't know enough about the AR platform, or basic gunsmithing in general, to feel confident building one.

 

That looks like one hell of a weapon you put built. Is it .308 or something else? How much did it weigh empty before the scope?

 

What barnd is the upper and lower, is it better if they match? How difficult was it to put together? Are their good general assembly directions available on the net?

 

Thank you,

Joe

Edited by Joebada

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Nevermind, just read your build and range report posts. Very nice.

 

Would stil be interested in the unloaded weight before putting scope on though.

 

I want something in the 7.5# range that will shot 1 MOA benched with handloads.

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As an old retired gunsmith I had resisted the AR15 type of firearms as I was pleased with the M1 M14 platforms, 30 caliber. Recent trips to the range introduced me to the 308 - 7.62X51 AR rifles and I got the crazy old man "new rifle itch" found this AR308 site and rather than pay almost $2000 for a hard to find Ruger SR762 I opped for a good new DPMS LR308 Oracle with a glass sight, extra magazine and 50 rounds of Federal LC ammo for an out the door price of $1150 Later added a Giessele trigger and am pleased with the reliability and accuracy. For me it is a good deal, I have a work in progress and when I change some parts out I have experiences and knowledge of the degree of improvment from stock or lack of improvements. I don't like the roughness of the charging sequence or the noise of the return to battery and will work on these items. Later I suspect I could be ready to build a 300 Blackout from scratch. But not yet.

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Nevermind, just read your build and range report posts. Very nice.

 

Would stil be interested in the unloaded weight before putting scope on though.

 

I want something in the 7.5# range that will shot 1 MOA benched with handloads.

 

 

AR10s are heavy in general.  If you're wanting something lighter, definitely steer clear of the recon.   You can watch any youtube video on how to assemble an AR lower.  If you can change oil in a car, you can do it.  Aero has the weights listed on their site Im sure.  I dont have a scale at my house accurate enough to weigh it.  

 

My only point was that for the same price as a new DPMS, you can build a helluva a lot nicer gun with some great upgrades that you will really appreciate on the range or in the field.  

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AR10s are heavy in general.  If you're wanting something lighter, definitely steer clear of the recon.   You can watch any youtube video on how to assemble an AR lower.  If you can change oil in a car, you can do it.  Aero has the weights listed on their site Im sure.  I dont have a scale at my house accurate enough to weigh it.  

 

My only point was that for the same price as a new DPMS, you can build a helluva a lot nicer gun with some great upgrades that you will really appreciate on the range or in the field.  

This new post today, could be a reason to buy a complete new in the box DPMS rifle, or if you are interested in shooting soon rather than watch for the mailman or the brown truck to bring your parts over the next month or so.... Just another point of view.

 

 

Posted Today, 02:34 AM

Been sculking around on the  .308AR forum for a short while now. I have been reading as much as possible about the AR10, getting ready for my first build. Gathered the parts over time and I have completed the build except for the barrel/gas block/hand guard installation. That being said......

I am looking for someone in the DFW area that is willing to lend their expertise to my project. I understand the installation process but am not confident enough to do the installation without guidence. I do not have a receiver set vice block and am concerned about bending the receiver. I am also installing a JP handguard that goes on differently than the normal handguard.

 

Is there anyone here in the DFW area that is willing to help me finish my project. I want to do it myself, but I want to do it right the first time without screwing things up. I am looking for someone that has done this before that can hold my hand and walk me through to the finish. I could have a gunsmith do it for me but then I could not honestly say that "I" completed my first AR10 build.

 

Any help or feedback is appreciated,

 

Gary O.

godum02@yahoo.com

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This new post today, could be a reason to buy a complete new in the box DPMS rifle, or if you are interested in shooting soon rather than watch for the mailman or the brown truck to bring your parts over the next month or so.... Just another point of view.

 

 

Yeah, i mean, it would be terrible to wait like a few days for the best parts to arrive so you have an enjoyable, slick shooting gun for a lifetime compared to going out buying a bone stock, base model gun right now for the same price.   I mean i get your point but if I'm dropping $1500+, i can wait a few days to do some research, make the best decision for my needs and get the right stuff for the long term... but that's just me.  If you're a "gotta have it right now" guy, then yes, that's a great point. 

 

I did all my research over a few days, placed all my orders in one day and was out shooting less than ten days later.  It would've been sooner but i was out of town for work and had to get my lower from my FFL.  

 

As far as assembly goes, i mean the only thing you have to assemble really is the lower.  Most uppers can come complete.  Just hop on the ole youtube machine or throw up a post in a local gun forum and half a dozen people will offer to help.  

Edited by Spartan

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I agree that a lot of folks get more of a feeling of accomplishment by"building" their shooting stick from parts from different places then have it look and shoot well. But for others, me included,it would be like using the parts list to order an engine, drivetrain,chassis, body and tires and wheels from aftermarket vendors to "build" your own Chevy Suburban, rather than going to the Chevy store and buying a factory built one with a factory warranty.

Different strokes for different folks.

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I don't think spending 30min to assemble a Lego gun is in the same ballpark as building an entire car. Not saying one way is better than the other. If somebody made a factory gun exactly how I wanted my gun...for a similar price, I'd be all over it.

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I don't think spending 30min to assemble a Lego gun is in the same ballpark as building an entire car. Not saying one way is better than the other. If somebody made a factory gun exactly how I wanted my gun...for a similar price, I'd be all over it.

 

Thanks for saying what i was going to say.  Putting a lower together takes about as long as hooking up a DVD player if not less time.  We aren't building a car from the ground up.  

 

I could give you a list of DIY things that are harder than assembling a lower. The rest of the assembly is stuff you would have to DIY to clean it later on anyway, it's not remotely like swapping an engine.  I hate to sound like a jerk but if you can't assemble a lower... How do you clean your gun?  

 

i know different strokes for different folks but cmon.  watch a few youtube vids, get a beer and put it together.  You feel like a MAN after sipping your beer, probably lost a detent spring once or twice but you're holding YOUR gun.  You're like a gun god.  Plus, you can spend about the same money as buying a box gun and get some really nice upgrades like trigger, BCG and muzzle brake.  Those three mods alone make shooting sooooo much more enjoyable (well BCG is just nice to clean) especially on a heavier caliber.  

Edited by Spartan

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I didn't realize it was that easy to put these guns together. I'm leaning toward this option now, as I am in no rush , and like the idea of having premium parts at a similar price to a production gun with avg quality parts.

However, I am concerned when I read things about AR 10 builds being "finicky", or how you were surprised the action stayed open on last shot on your $1600 gun. If I'm spending that much money on premium parts and assembling correctly, I would expect the gun to function flawlessly and shoot at least 1.5 moa with premium ammo. Otherwise, why not buy a production gun with a warranty that is widely reported to be a good shooter?

Edited by Joebada

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Assembling a lower and upper is easy... AS LONG AS you have all the tools and supplies...

Let's not forget that:

-not everybody has a vise

-not everybody has the correct upper and lower vise blocks or barrel extension tools

-not everybody has a torque wrench with the correct torque range

-not everybody has the proper barrel and/or castle nut wrenches

-not everybody has the proper grease for the upper receiver and receiver extension threads

-not everybody has the proper roll pin punches

-not everybody has the proper headspace gauges...

Yeah, assembling a lower and upper is easy, but not that easy to do properly...

Edited by FaRKle!

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Assembling a lower and upper is easy... AS LONG AS you have all the tools and supplies...

Let's not forget that:

-not everybody has a vise

-not everybody has the correct upper and lower vise blocks or barrel extension tools

-not everybody has a torque wrench with the correct torque range

-not everybody has the proper barrel and/or castle nut wrenches

-not everybody has the proper grease for the upper receiver and receiver extension threads

-not everybody has the proper roll pin punches

-not everybody has the proper headspace gauges...

Yeah, assembling a lower and upper is easy, but not that easy to do properly...

This post above is the truth everyone says how easy BUT you have to have the tools to make it easy..... I did not have them and did not want to spend the money to buy them so I bought a stock DPMS off the shelf for 900.00 and then added what I wanted and threw away what I did not want I could give a rats A$$ about the color I will krylon it anyway when the time comes all that matters is does it shoot with no problems? and is it accurate mine is I have killed 3 elk 4 deer it is scratched up and it looks used       JUst right! you do what you want it is your money and your story tell it how you like... good luck...

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I have a friend with most of the tools listed above, and some basic gunsmithing experience, but neither of us have any experience putting ar's together.

I wonder if building an ar 15 first would be advisable, considering the ar 10 is less modular and more challenging?

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Assembling a lower and upper is easy... AS LONG AS you have all the tools and supplies...

Let's not forget that:
-not everybody has a vise
-not everybody has the correct upper and lower vise blocks or barrel extension tools
-not everybody has a torque wrench with the correct torque range
-not everybody has the proper barrel and/or castle nut wrenches
-not everybody has the proper grease for the upper receiver and receiver extension threads
-not everybody has the proper roll pin punches
-not everybody has the proper headspace gauges...

Yeah, assembling a lower and upper is easy, but not that easy to do properly...

 

 

You can always buy a pre-assembled upper.  Your tool list is the complete/every tool possible list if building the upper too.  Most people can get by with basic house tools if just doing the lower and still save money versus buying a complete gun or build a nicer gun for the same price if they just assemble the lower. 

 

My Aero upper with 13" free float handguard and SS barrel was $530 i think.  Just slide in your BCG and charging handle.  

 

 

 

I have a friend with most of the tools listed above, and some basic gunsmithing experience, but neither of us have any experience putting ar's together.

I wonder if building an ar 15 first would be advisable, considering the ar 10 is less modular and more challenging?

 

Yeah, i think in the old days, sure, you were starting off on something without any knowledge or being show how to but with youtube and all the resources available online now... it's too easy!  Ask around, everyone is happy to help, watch videos etc.  There is virtually nothing different on assembling an AR10 lower versus AR15, just buy your LPK from the same manufacturer as the lower so there isnt an issue.  I dont get why everyone is acting like it's rocket science to put an AR together.  My first one, i scrounged tools together, taped off my pliers for the roll pin starting, used the round end of a drill bit to put the take down detent pins in.  Most lowers have threaded bolt catch pins anyway now.  That was the only hard roll pin.  Plus decent lowers don't even have a trigger guard roll pin. 

 

If it's not for you, that's fine but it's really not complicated especially if you check a few youtube vids to see the basic process.  You shouldn't need a single special tool for a lower besides a castle nut wrench ($7 on amazon), detent pin tools are nice to have ($10 on amazon) but not necessary.  

Edited by Spartan

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I didn't realize it was that easy to put these guns together. I'm leaning toward this option now, as I am in no rush , and like the idea of having premium parts at a similar price to a production gun with avg quality parts.

However, I am concerned when I read things about AR 10 builds being "finicky", or how you were surprised the action stayed open on last shot on your $1600 gun. If I'm spending that much money on premium parts and assembling correctly, I would expect the gun to function flawlessly and shoot at least 1.5 moa with premium ammo. Otherwise, why not buy a production gun with a warranty that is widely reported to be a good shooter?

 

Joe,

 

I would add that I spent a few evenings reading about AR10s/parts compatibility first.  I chose to get my LPK (Lower parts kit) from the same manufacturer as my lower so i didn't have any issues there.  After doing my own now and looking back at a lot of the info i read, i think most of those people just threw stuff together. Do your research and buy parts from a reputable company.  If you aren't in a hurry, get on some mailing lists for Aero, Primary Arms etc.  They have sales at Labor Day, Memorial Day, Thanksgiving, Fourth of July, Black Friday, Christmas etc.  You can probably save $200-400 on a build by getting parts on sale.  

 

As far as "lock back on empty" goes, some of the issues were from people not running an Aero LPK (parts are a smidge different), i also ran a standard AR10 buffer, spring and buffer tube.  I will go to a JP silent capture spring in the future but wanted to start with a factory outfitted AR10 to make sure there weren't any issues.  People often throw a gun together with different gas tube/barrel lengths, AR15 buffer tube, AR10 spring, who knows what buffer then they wonder why it isn't running right.  There are endless options for springs and buffer weights.  I really recommend going with standard/factory stuff first then modding in the future from there.  

 

If you have any questions, I did a ton of research and it's all fairly fresh.  Happy to review my parts list and why i chose each part with you.  My goal was a 400-600 yard consistent gun, eventually stretching to 800 as my skill improves.  Very happy with the Aero stuff for its quality, price and accuracy.  Hopefully my Feddy gold match will be in soon.  I'm going to run another 100 rounds of PMC before nailing down with the gold match.  

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I didn't know diddley about a LR308 never shot one, I have seen the insides of many firearms. I did order a civilian Colt  bull barrel .223 target model  for a young Air Force vet. back in 1987 and touched it to record the serial number back when I had my gunshop. I also had a Sterling arms Armalite .223,  that I sold in 2 days, seemed kinda like a toy girls or little boy's gun after working on M1s, M14s and M60s. Weatherby .300 Magnums etc., etc. I have had as much repair work for the public as I ever want,  and I've had enough visits from ATF goons that hardly know a ,22 long rifle from a 60mm mortar...Boy Howdy some customers are really PITA they want a miracle fix-up done for  no more than $25.  I still do my personal work, which is okay without a FFL.

 

and like the man said " You do what you want it is your money and your story tell it how you like... good luck..."  that is how we do it. 

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