Building a CSASS for the Wife...

[COBrien]

Well, gents, building my 5.56 Dissipator rifle (in secret...) has led to a sickness.

I am now looking into building my own version of a CSASS-type rifle for the wife. Perhaps this is penance for building a rifle for myself behind her back, I don't know. Or perhaps, after the OIS on 9/17/17 here, where the suspect was using an AR-10 to send .308s through the walls of his house to keep from going to jail, I want her to be as heavily armed as possible when she gets a call-out.

Regardless, she doesn't know about this one, either. Yet.

For reference, here is what I believe to be a spec list for the U.S. Army's CSASS: https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/csass.htm

So far, I have a Fulton Armory FAR-308 lower. And nothing else.

Here are the highlights of my proposed parts list:

1. FA FAR-308 Upper, "DPMS Low"

2. Criterion/FA 18.5" medium-weight SS rifle gas barrel (considering a Criterion/ADM 16" rifle gas barrel, hybrid or HBAR)

3. FA NiB BCG (not firm on NiB, but when the "plain Jane" version is $270 and the NiB is $300, maybe the NiB is worth the marginal extra cost...)

4. MagPul UBR buttstock

5. MagPul MIAD 1.1 pistol grip

6. Midwest Industries DPMS Low M-Lok handguard (15" for 18.5" barrel, 12" for 16")

7. Leupold Mk 4 LR/T 3.5-10x40 (mildot)

8. KAC 300m 45° offset BUIS

 

Keep in mind this rifle may be used in an LE capacity as a "long range" solution. Of course, in LE circles, 95% of "sniper" shots take place between 0 and 100 yards.

[edgecrusher]

If this is for patrol go with a 16” or a 14.5” with a pinned and welded muzzle device. 18” is far too long for swinging around in patrol and not needed. She won’t be engaging anything past 100 yds and realistically it’ll be under 50. 

[edgecrusher]

Plus if she can use any rifle she can qualify with build a .458 SOCOM. First hand Experticity from out trip shows that fucker packs a serious punch.

[edgecrusher]

1 hour ago, COBrien said:

Keep in mind this rifle may be used in an LE capacity as a "long range" solution. Of course, in LE circles, 95% of "sniper" shots take place between 0 and 100 yards.

Also this. Is she her teams sharpshooter? Then she won’t be. She will be held liable. Trust me. 

[COBrien]

They are currently accepting applications for sharpshooters (looking to select 3, with 2-3 "alternates"). She has expressed a serious interest (both to me and the SRT commander) in this position. She's already a negotiator, so if she is selected she would be an alternate (for when the other negotiator is on-scene, I would imagine). Those selected will be trained on Rem. 700s in .308, and my understanding is that they will be allowed to qualify with any rifle that will accurately and reliably fire department-issued rounds (think TAP 168s).

39 minutes ago, edgecrusher said:

Also this. Is she her teams sharpshooter? Then she won’t be. She will be held liable. Trust me. 

I'm trying to understand what you meant here. Are you saying she will be held liable if she's not the sharpshooter? If so, then yes, I understand that.

This is a small-ish department (40ish officers at full strength, currently approx. 20 officers), so when fertilizer meets ventilator, it's all hands on deck.

 

If I'm honest, I think I'm just looking for an excuse to build her a rifle... This seems like a good one.

6 months ago, I was looking for a good excuse to buy her some IIIa soft armor with IV plates in an external carrier. Unfortunately, one arose 3 months ago. She'll have her plates and carrier by Christmas.

[survivalshop]

 Even if didn't or couldn't use it at work , it would be a good practice Rifle for both of you .   

 

 I'm with Edge , go 16" , light , but not too light of contour , I have a 16" Kreiger/Criterion HB & its pretty heavy , these Rifles are heavy enough with out over doing it with the Barrel .

[sketch]

6 hours ago, edgecrusher said:

Plus if she can use any rifle she can qualify with build a .458 SOCOM. First hand Experticity from out trip shows that fucker packs a serious punch.

which i concur.. im on board for a 16" barrel soon.  im sure it has a little more umph and would knock loudly at 100 yds.. padd the stalk up a tad and let er rip! 300 gn. projo is plenty! 

[edgecrusher]

18 hours ago, COBrien said:

They are currently accepting applications for sharpshooters (looking to select 3, with 2-3 "alternates"). She has expressed a serious interest (both to me and the SRT commander) in this position. She's already a negotiator, so if she is selected she would be an alternate (for when the other negotiator is on-scene, I would imagine). Those selected will be trained on Rem. 700s in .308, and my understanding is that they will be allowed to qualify with any rifle that will accurately and reliably fire department-issued rounds (think TAP 168s).

I'm trying to understand what you meant here. Are you saying she will be held liable if she's not the sharpshooter? If so, then yes, I understand that.

Ok, we are on the same page then. Our team uses GAP 700’s. We are a larger department and they train or deploy daily. 

[edgecrusher]

18 hours ago, COBrien said:

 

If I'm honest, I think I'm just looking for an excuse to build her a rifle... This seems like a good one.

 

Nothing wrong with that. A 16” will get her out to 600 yds with ease, it will be lighter and plenty accurate. All the extra weight from a longer barrel is felt “more” being further away from the body. This is a great option and the weight is spot on. 

 

http://faxonfirearms.com/16-pencil-308-win-mid-length-4150-nitride/

 

And before you (or the peanut gallery) gets apprehensive about the profile, consider you won’t be getting this thing anywhere near hot enough for stringing unless you are mag dumping or shooting automatic. And both seem pretty expensive with the .308.

[98Z5V]

We need some StainTrain in this one...

@StainTrain

[COBrien]

I think I'm pretty well settled on the ADM/ Criterion 16" Hybrid (rifle gas) barrel. I think a HBAR on this rifle would just be too much... Should I be at all concerned running rifle gas on a 16" .308 barrel? I know all the talk of 5.56/.223 "Dissipators" and their unreliability (still haven't got mine totally together yet...), but it seems to me a .308, with its substantially greater case capacity and gas output, wouldn't have any problem cycling the BCG. Hell, ADM runs this exact barrel -- well, the HBAR -- on their UIC-10 (.308) "DMR" rifle. I wouldn't imagine they'd be running that setup if it resulted in a finicky rifle.

After thinking about it some more, I believe a 15" handguard would be better for this application -- get a bipod out further and give her more "rail estate" for whatever she may need. Not to mention it'll give some additional sight radius for BUIS.

Edited December 7, 2017 by COBrien

[StainTrain]

Heavy Armed doesn't equate to having the proper equipment for the prescribed task.  I love .308 win like it is a child I have raised, but from what you described above isn't the scratch that's needed for the Wife's itch.  The rifle you want to build, and I am liking it, fits in the a very very small niche in the LE world.  

I would rethink the .308 piece.  But if you are set on it, a light to medium profile 308 barrel at 16 inches (with a good muzzle brake) with a 13+ inch Hand guard is a solid option.

There a lot of good barrels for a good price out there, the faxon being one of them, but if your wife decides to step off being negotiator to be a sharpshooter, You should strongly consider a custom .308 barrel with high quality barrel blank   .  The margin for error is extremely small and commercial off the shelf stuff can be a gamble.  There is a difference and I'm not talking about 100 yard group size solely.  

As for optics, a high quality 1-6 is plenty.

 

[Robocop1051]

On 12/1/2017 at 8:40 AM, COBrien said:

Well, gents, building my 5.56 Dissipator rifle (in secret...) has led to a sickness.

I am now looking into building my own version of a CSASS-type rifle for the wife. Perhaps this is penance for building a rifle for myself behind her back, I don't know. Or perhaps, after the OIS on 9/17/17 here, where the suspect was using an AR-10 to send .308s through the walls of his house to keep from going to jail, I want her to be as heavily armed as possible when she gets a call-out.

Regardless, she doesn't know about this one, either. Yet.

For reference, here is what I believe to be a spec list for the U.S. Army's CSASS: https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/csass.htm

So far, I have a Fulton Armory FAR-308 lower. And nothing else.

Here are the highlights of my proposed parts list:

1. FA FAR-308 Upper, "DPMS Low"

2. Criterion/FA 18.5" medium-weight SS rifle gas barrel (considering a Criterion/ADM 16" rifle gas barrel, hybrid or HBAR) Criterion barrels are awesome. Also the Faxon 16" Gunner barrel is an adequate profile with a shitton of features.

3. FA NiB BCG (not firm on NiB, but when the "plain Jane" version is $270 and the NiB is $300, maybe the NiB is worth the marginal extra cost...)

4. MagPul UBR buttstock Cut weight (almost 2 pounds) with a MFT Minimalist or an AB Arms U.S.S. 

5. MagPul MIAD 1.1 pistol grip She'll hate the size over time. My wife prefers the Magpul MOE+ and K2+

6. Midwest Industries DPMS Low M-Lok handguard (15" for 18.5" barrel, 12" for 16") MI is a decent company, but I wouldn't use them for any "life depends on it" gear... If you haven't looked at them yet, check out PRI GenIII Handguards

7. Leupold Mk 4 LR/T 3.5-10x40 (mildot) *See below

8. KAC 300m 45° offset BUIS *See below

 

Keep in mind this rifle may be used in an LE capacity as a "long range" solution. Of course, in LE circles, 95% of "sniper" shots take place between 0 and 100 yards.

3.5-10x is too much for what we do. You even stated that the likelihood of engaging at that target is minuscule at best. Personally I'd never sacrifice my short game, just for the possibility for a long game. All the new 1-6x or 1-8x are more than sufficient for LE purposes and still provide you with a two-eye-open, CQB style, close range optic. Choosing an optic that only goes down to 3x eliminates indoor use. We don't have the luxury of military's point shooting. Every round has to count, so every round must be shot with precision. My personal choice has been, and always will be, the Elcan Specter. It's priced out of most peoples range, but it absolutely is the best (my opinion) combat optic on the market.

For magnified optics, flip up 45° offset sights won't help you when you need them most. Even the fastest ones out there, take too long to deploy. Imagine trying to take a a magnified shot at a medium to long range, then your threat unexpectedly pops up at a short range. It would take the same amount of time to dial a scope down to a 1x or 2x, as it would to flip up two sights. Fixed 45° sights or a decent 45° MRDS is the only way to go. I working on an extreme long range engagement rifle that I'm outfitting with a US Optics 5-25x optic. This scope is being accompanied by a 45° Trijicon RMR, for CQB/Close engagement. It's a big cost, but this rifle is going to places where lives depend on speed and precision.

[COBrien]

@StainTrain your points are well-taken. I understand this is a niche rifle, which will likely (and hopefully...) only ever be used for training/qualifying. I'm collecting ideas at this point -- if I'm honest, this lower was purchased as "insurance" right after Las Vegas -- and I realize I may be a bit premature in even considering a build. They haven't even got the rifles to send their sharpshooters to school with yet.

Would you suggest building her a custom 5.56 patrol rifle instead, at this point? She currently has her as-issued Bushmaster A2 carbine (literally nothing done to it, as it's, well, an A2 upper and owned by the department...) riding around in her car with her. She also has a Bushy Carbon-15 in the safe -- it was a Christmas gift from her dad right after Newtown.

She has also expressed an interest in turning in her Bushy, getting one of the LESO M16s the department has, and putting together an SBR upper for it. (For the record, I know... She's all over the place...).

[COBrien]

@Robocop1051 I appreciate the input. You make excellent points.

I've been wondering if a 3.5-10x scope would be too much glass for this purpose, and you hit the nail on the head. At any expected engagement range, that will be too much magnification on a man-sized target.

I'll look into the buttstocks you suggested. Saving weight on a 9+ lb. rifle will be an added benefit.

As for grips, I'm a huge fan of Hogues. My wife doesn't mind them, but she does seem to prefer MagPuls. Thanks for the insight into the size -- it's not everything, but it does matter...

Re: BUIS, I hadn't thought about it in those terms. I'll definitely reconsider that.

[ARTrooper]

I think what the other guys have said is spot on. 

But, I think more research needs to be done. What are her department POLICIES? Maybe her department as real lax policies, mine has a very specific list of upgrades I can do to my patrol rifle, secondary weapons I can have, and even the number of rounds I have with me at all times. No point building a rifle for work if her supervisors won't even let her use it. 

If they will let her use what you are trying to build, I completely agree with the guys. 16" barrel, and don't worry about the rifle gas length, it will be great, especially considering you will be tuning it to a very specific round that her department uses. A 15" handguard. A flash suppressor that you can attach a suppressor to might be something to consider also. And a scope that is 1-8 power would be the way I would go also. In high stress situations nobody wants to be searching for their target with glass that is magnified more than they need. 

I agree heavily with robo, get the weight down on the thing as much as possible. LE carry enough weight and often times have to move fast. Weight plus speed equals exhaustion and that leads to poor shots. Lighter allows her to recover quicker before a shot hopefully. 

If this is all for naught because of policy. Maybe work on upgrading her 5.56 patrol rifle and go short and light. A department near me have patrol rifles with 10" barrels making it easier to get them out of their vehicles and reducing the weight as much as possible. the also have suppressors on their rifles.

On ‎12‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 10:40 AM, COBrien said:

Or perhaps, after the OIS on 9/17/17 here, where the suspect was using an AR-10 to send .308s through the walls of his house to keep from going to jail

If penetration is the thing that makes you want to update your wife's patrol rifle, based on my experience I can tell you that 5.56/.223 has enough penetration to go through multiple walls in the average house. And if greater danger exception permits to using deadly force without isolating a target, a regular patrol rifle can do the job in the situation of a barricaded subject. 

[COBrien]

@ARTrooper I have discussed this potential project with the department's armorer, who is tasked with inspecting and approving personally-owned/built weapons prior to in-service use, and who also happens to be a personal friend of ours (in a department of ~20 officers, everyone knows everyone personally...). He has advised me that anything which will reliably run department-issued ammo and group sub-MOA at 100 yards is acceptable.

I am converting all of our personally-owned rifles with threaded muzzles to Sig SRD QD muzzle devices (to use with the suppressor I intend to purchase in the coming months). I was intending to use the same Sig SRD QD Brake on this project. The department does not currently possess or field any cans, though now that the SRT guys have been issued RRA (that's what they say, but I've yet to see one in person) 10.5" SBRs, they are considering it.

Of course, and again, I realize I'm a bit premature in considering this build at this point. I will speak with the SRT commander (who's also the armorer I mentioned above) this evening about the status of the sharpshooter program.

The actual build won't start in earnest unless/until my wife is selected, at least as an alternate shooter. Will I pick up small pieces and parts as they go on sale? Absolutely. But no "big ticket" components will be purchased yet.

In the event she changes her mind and/or is not selected, this lower will languish in the box under my desk at work until the time is right. I also have a Fulton Armory small-frame lower in that same box, which may be built into a 5.56 patrol carbine for her instead. Or maybe I start collecting parts for an SBR upper (12.5" or 10.5"?) and furniture for her to throw onto one of those LESO lowers...

I realize I can build a personally-owned SBR, but thinking about the possibility of a personally-owned SBR being used by a LEO for a LEO purpose, and being carried around in a car day in and day out (OHP recently had one of their cars broken into and guns stolen out of the racks -- don't ask me how) makes the hair on the back of my neck stand on end. I'm an attorney by day, so I see liability and lawsuits everywhere.

[StainTrain]

I would find out more about the Sharpshooter position and how the agency intends to utilize them before starting on a build.  According to your post,  it will have to be a .308 because of the selected duty round.  

Since you dabble in the legal arts, then I recommend you look into recent use of force reviews within your state.  The agency you described is small which means shooting reviews will be done by an outside agency (most likely).   While she will be covered by the Department's Policy (I would get a copy of that to have on hand) Home Customized weapons can be and are sometimes viewed with a jaundiced eye. While not a deal breaker, it can sometimes add  talking points to the discussions that don't need to be there.

I strongly discourage using personally owned NFA items for official duty use.   

 

 

Edited December 8, 2017 by StainTrain

[sketch]

I agree with the stain dont take the nfa to work. but for fun and pratice go with the sig! mine is great for many cals.. even 223/556 i think the micro break does help while not suppressed just fine! This thread has sold me on a video for testing walls.. its gonna be a bit due to hollidays but ill try for exterior siding and interior drywall. 

[98Z5V]

4 hours ago, StainTrain said:

I strongly discourage using personally owned NFA items for official duty use.  

^^^  I'm with him on that...  Doesn't sound like a good idea, during a Grand Jury investigation of an officer-involved shooting...  I can tell you what the POW (Personally Owned Weapons) position is on military aspects - you'll get Court Martialed for a .38 Special... 

***  DISCLAIMER:  I'm NOT a Law Enforcement Officer, never have been, never will be (Their job is harder than a .mil position, and that shiit is hard enough...).  I'm also not a lawyer, and cannot advise on law. 

 

[survivalshop]

8 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

^^^  I'm with him on that...  Doesn't sound like a good idea, during a Grand Jury investigation of an officer-involved shooting...  I can tell you what the POW (Personally Owned Weapons) position is on military aspects - you'll get Court Martialed for a .38 Special... 

***  DISCLAIMER:  I'm NOT a Law Enforcement Officer, never have been, never will be (Their job is harder than a .mil position, and that shiit is hard enough...).  I'm also not a lawyer, and cannot advise on law. 

 

 Just think what you would be if you stayed at a Holiday Inn 

 CO,

Your getting some real good advice on this Thread , you have a lot to digest . 

[ARTrooper]

The lax policy for your wife's department sounds nice, but it not being that specific could bit her in the @ss. I think building the weapon should not be an issue as long as it is approved by supervisors in a very very detailed memorandum down to the very last part you put into it. That will be your legal protection if there is an officer involved shooting. 

But then as you said, rifles occasionally get stolen out of squads, and you have no protection against that.

Also in an officer involved shooting, though very rare, the weapon will be taken into evidence and you probably won't see it again for years.

I'm one that is all for providing personal equipment for yourself if the department doesn't provide the standards you want, I know many people that do, just do everything you can to cover your @ss. And like stain said, I agree you should look up recent use of force reviews and make sure there is nothing that can come back on you.

 

[StainTrain]

I am ok with providing POWs except in the form of Precision Rifles and NFA items.  If the Department wants the Precision capability (responsibility/liability whatever), they need to pony up for the equipment and training.  

 If the Department wants the benefits of select fire, Suppressors, SBRs, etc, then they need to do the paperwork.  Let them be the ones that interface with the USG.

 

 

 

 

 

[unforgiven]

It's all about liability, everyone loves you till 

1. You get hurt.

2.You fuked something up bad enough that someone noticed.

3. It is something that will make someone up the food chain look bad.

[COBrien]

Thanks all for the input, fellas, but I think this project is getting shelved for now. I may pick this back up as a build for her (...or myself?) later on.

After talking it over with the wife (which I should have done in the first place...), she's decided she'd rather have a nice, light(er) (than the Bushmaster A2-uppered carbine she was issued) patrol carbine in 5.56 NATO for the time being. Her first response was, "well, I have this Carbon-15 I could use," but, truthfully, I'm not comfortable with her relying on that rifle on the street. I appreciate her dad buying it for her, but...

Not saying anything negative about Bushmaster, Carbon-15s, or carbon fiber/polymer receivers in general, but when it absolutely, positively has to go 'bang', I'm not 100% sold. If removing and/or retorquing a barrel nut can render a Carbon-15 upper useless, I don't want my wife behind it in a firefight.

Edited December 15, 2017 by COBrien