PA10 for deer hunting

[unzman55]

Hey everyone,

I'm new to this site, and am humbly asking for your expert opinions.  I appreciate your responses.

After only getting one shot off at the biggest buck I've ever seen (and missing - he was hauling arse) using a bolt action .308, I've decided to move into the AR 10 world.  This guy should have been on my wall, and I didn't have time to get off a second shot after racking the bolt.  I'm disappointed and salty.

Like probably many of you guys, I'm middle class, married, two kids, and a house.  So the perfect $3,500 (at least) AR 10 of my dreams is WAY out of the question.  So Ive decided to build a PA 10.  I have already built an AR 15 through them, and am happy with it.  I would like to keep the rifle build cost under $1000, so PSA is the first build that comes to mind.  If you have other recommendations I would appreciate. 

Here's the scenario.  Where I hunt there is two options; first being in the woods with a maximum shot realistically around 50 yards max with lots of brush.  Second, if I hunt looking over the nearby field I would see a shot of 250 yards max (100-200 most likely).  I will also be making shots of 500 yards at the range for fun, but that's not my main concern.  This is the new hunting rifle, not a bench rest gun.  Weight is also a concern, but I only have to walk about a half mile and I'm not out of shape.  Lightness would be a plus.  If you know how much these rifles weigh please let me know, PSA doesn't list weights which worries me a bit. 

Here's my questions:

1.  .308 or 6.5CM?  I would be at an advantage with 6.5CM in field, and at a disadvantage in the woods with brush I'm guessing.  Recoil would be an advantage with 6.5CM but I've never used a "Limbsaver", don't really care. I'm a reloader so .308 I have been doing for awhile, I have nothing in 6.5CM.  I'd have to buy dies and all the rest (aw shucks).

2.  If 308; 18" or 20" barrel, midlength vs. rifle length gas.  Is 18" enough for the 200-250 yard "minute of deer" long shot?  Am I splitting hairs worrying about it?

3.  Optic:  I'm thinking a Vortex 1x8 Strike Eagle.  BDC for the close up and 250 long shot. Illumination is nice for dawn/dusk.  Anyone else have experience with this optic?  Opinions?

Sorry if I got too wordy or asked too much for one post. 

Thanks for your help.

 

 

 

[Armed Eye Doc]

Welcome to the forum from Texas.  

I will answer what I can. 

PSA Gen2 seems to be a good rifle for the money from the reports on here. 

For the distances you will be shooting, even out to 500 yards+, you will be well served with a 16" barrel.  There is almost no benefit to a longer barrel.  It will also help your desire to cut the weight. 

A gas gun should recoil less than your bolt gun, so you should not need a limb saver.

I have not used the scope you have, but 8x at no more than 500 yards should be plenty of magnification. 

I can't speak to the ballistic difference between the 308 and 6.5. 

You should get more experienced answers in a little bit. 

[sketch]

doc said the truth but if the question pertains to building a 308 or 6.5 than buying a whole rifle there is much to be determined.. welcome from wa.

Ive had good times with vortex scopes. not at the hunter aspect but all around does great and clear! 

 

[washguy]

Untz  Welcome to the forum from  Texas !

you said  "I'm new to this site, and am humbly asking for your expert opinions.  I appreciate your responses.

"After only getting one shot off at the biggest buck I've ever seen and missing - he was hauling arse) using a bolt action 308." Maybe you stated this wrongly or I read it wrongly.....and I don't wanna be a dik...BUT  He was hauling arse?  Why you shooting at a deer that's hauling arse in the first place?  So my opinion that you asked for is don't be shooting at a deer that's hauling azz....with that being said get the PSA and the Vortex 1x8...ive got one they are nice...the vortex...I know nothing about the PSA cept its in your price range and ought to serve your needs....I like 16" barrels with a mid gas system they will out shoot you...no need for 18 or 20 at your distances.....check out Boof's posts on the PSA          Wash

[survivalshop]

    Texas Lung shots work , a couple of seasons ago , I shot at very close range at a Buck & he was hauling a$$ & blew his left front leg off at the Knee , the follow up shot was him running straight up a ridge  , away from me & the only time I had clear shot in the woods was aiming at his neck , well it entered just past his punch & came out his throat & stoned him . The loss of the leg didn't seem to slow him down at all . I just couldn't let a wounded Deer go , so I took a chancy shot & lucky it worked .

 Weapon was a DSG with Hastings rifled Barrel with cantilever Scope mount on a Remington 870 mag. 12ga. I also shot a real nice 10 pointer on the run with the same set up in the 2014 season . I have that mount on my wall .

  While we all like to have a Deer stopped , its not always the way we see them , where I hunt , hunting pressure has them on the run most of the time . Just have to lead them .

  I would also go with a 16" bbl. , your not shooting at long range , so the 6.5 is really not needed , the 308 is plenty of power for the thin skinned Whitetail . You can always change what you don't like down the road one you hunt with the rifle a bit .

  While most talk about a light 308AR , once you put a scope , sling & ammo , they are all heavy compared to a Bolt Gun .

[washguy]

"Texas Lung shots work , a couple of seasons ago , I shot at very close range at a Buck & he was hauling a$$ & blew his left front leg off at the Knee , the follow up shot was him running straight up a ridge  , away from me & the only time I had clear shot in the woods was aiming at his neck , well it entered just past his punch & came out his throat & stoned him . The loss of the leg didn't seem to slow him down at all . I just couldn't let a wounded Deer go , so I took a chancy shot & lucky it worked . "

YIKES                    Wash

[unzman55]

13 hours ago, washguy said:

Untz  Welcome to the forum from  Texas !

you said  "I'm new to this site, and am humbly asking for your expert opinions.  I appreciate your responses.

"After only getting one shot off at the biggest buck I've ever seen and missing - he was hauling arse) using a bolt action 308." Maybe you stated this wrongly or I read it wrongly.....and I don't wanna be a dik...BUT  He was hauling arse?  Why you shooting at a deer that's hauling arse in the first place?  So my opinion that you asked for is don't be shooting at a deer that's hauling azz....with that being said get the PSA and the Vortex 1x8...ive got one they are nice...the vortex...I know nothing about the PSA cept its in your price range and ought to serve your needs....I like 16" barrels with a mid gas system they will out shoot you...no need for 18 or 20 at your distances.....check out Boof's posts on the PSA          Wash

Thank you everyone for the responses and the welcome. 

My 16" PSA .223 is pretty accurate 100-200 yards with a bushnell red dot for SHTF situations.  If i wasn't hitting the target out that far, they'd at least be ducking.  I am just not familiar with the .308 round at that barrel length.  Well aware of .308's capabilities, been shooting it, and reloading it for a long time.  That .308 bolt gun has dropped every deer it's hit anyways.  It's a 22" barrel. 

I don't care about recoil, my "limbsaver" comment was supposed to mean I'm not a sissy.  I've never felt the need to use one for my Mosin Nagant, 12gauge, or 7mm Rem Mag.  I can shoot .308 all day.  I was more thinking about follow up shots after the first initial, while keeping the target in the crosshairs.

I have a hard time believing anyone on this forum, or any deer hunter for that matter, wouldn't have at least took a pot shot at a running deer with a rack like that.  I was in the brush situation when he came through.  I'm thinking with an AR 10 style rifle i would have at least got two shots off, maybe three.  If I would have had the opportunity for a "Texas lung shot" as survivalshop so eloquently mentioned (that term always makes me chuckle a bit) I would have taken it.  Bolt gun stock got caught up on thick Wisconsin deer hunting wear.  Adjustable stock length will help with that.  I had "buck fever" I admit it.  I hunt for meat primarily, but that deer was HUGE.  Really have a hard time believing most wouldn't be happy getting that deer down, even If he looked like swiss cheese afterwards.  I'd gladly clean out a Texas heart shot for that rack.  Buck of my life.

My intent is always an ethical deer kill, if that wasn't implied.  Glad I missed if I would have just wounded that deer.  No blood trail.

Again, just unfamiliar with .308 in an AR style rifle.  The 16" barrel accuracy is surprising.  Has to be a significant velocity loss, but if you know the drop, it'll still hit the target, and with .308 I'm sure it's still lethal..  I will take that into account.

Thanks again.

 

 

[Boot_Scraper]

I built my PA-10 for the exact use you're intending. Well, not entirely. I own an X-bolt .308 but the WMA I hunt has a hog epidemic currently. I wanted something affordable, light(ish), powerful, and as much ammo as possible. PA-10 with a Faxon pencil fit the bill. I must say, after many hunts with this weapon, it's my new favorite. A few of my spots are open cypress swamp that could reach up to 200 yards. For those, the X-bolt gets to play, but 95% of the time shots are inside 50. 

All that said, BUILD IT! 

Start with a nice lightweight barrel (16"!!!) and go from there. My PA-10 upper/lower fit leaves much to be desired. I shimmed it/accuwedged it but it still bothers me. Here's a smoking deal on an Areo set M5 308 set. If I could do it again, that's how I'da done it.

Here's mine with it's first meal.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Boot_Scraper

[unzman55]

Sweeeet!  Thanks Boot_Scraper!

[washguy]

Untz       Let me recap your posts...so heres the latest of the crap you just posted.

YOU SAID 

"I have a hard time believing anyone on this forum, or any deer hunter for that matter, wouldn't have at least took a pot shot at a running deer with a rack like that.  I was in the brush situation when he came through.  I'm thinking with an AR 10 style rifle i would have at least got two shots off, maybe three.  If I would have had the opportunity for a "Texas lung shot" as survivalshop so eloquently mentioned (that term always makes me chuckle a bit) I would have taken it.  Bolt gun stock got caught up on thick Wisconsin deer hunting wear.  Adjustable stock length will help with that.  I had "buck fever" I admit it.  I hunt for meat primarily, but that deer was HUGE.  Really have a hard time believing most wouldn't be happy getting that deer down, even If he looked like swiss cheese afterwards.  I'd gladly clean out a Texas heart shot for that rack.  Buck of my life.

My intent is always an ethical deer kill, if that wasn't implied.  Glad I missed if I would have just wounded that deer.  No blood trail." YOUR'E Full OF CRAP on that line of thinking !

Let Me Clue You in....".  SO You Like To Make Blanket Statements about my brothers on this forum hunting like THE WAY YOU HUNT?  FIRST OFF YOU AINT NO HUNTER . You are EXACTLY the KIND Of PERSON that gives Hunters  Bad Name......   WHY DONT YOU TAKE YOUR CRAP TO ANOTHER FORUM ? We have a nice place here and  want to keep it that way.                                            Wash

Edited December 3, 2017 by washguy

[sketch]

Thats duck hunting in public ranges.. i see pot shots all the time.. ruins the hunt for everyone including yourself. I didnt hunt this year just for that very reason.. ive been peppered to many times. and the long shot with a 12 ga. dosnt connet. 

I would sugest some pratice in a moving environment. like fowel or rabits or yotes ? aim small miss small. Dont spook the animal get their early the next day and stalk it until your ready to place a good shot! 

[Boot_Scraper]

[unzman55]

Wow, sorry if I offended.  I'm sorry if I made a generalization or stereotype of the typical deer hunter.

So I'm only supposed to shoot at deer that comes right to me and waits broadside patiently for the perfect shot?   I've taken other deer shooting them on the move, and I've hit them and dropped them.   How am I full of crap if I'm glad that I didn't even get close and completely missed, rather than wounding a deer? You've never shot at game that was moving?  Okay, good for you.  Survivalshot mentioned previously he shot at a deer "hauling arse".  Is he breaking your moral hunting code?  I screwed up, I missed.  Tried to lead him.  Either the brush took it out or I shot in front of him.  No blood trail so I hope someone else got him, or he'll be there next year for me.

I hunt private land, not public.  I'm not getting in the middle of WWIII out there, tried that and ain't doing it again.  Nor would I rapid fire recklessly putting other hunters in danger.  The direction I was shooting was safe.  I'm just mad I didn't get a second shot off to get that bugger. I firmly believe I would have if I didn't have to rack a bolt.  Imagine if that buck was running through private land.  It would have been swiss cheese. 

The deer was spooked towards me by a hunter in the adjacent woods.  Didn't know that until the guy I was hunting with saw moving orange over there before he heard my gunshot.  By the time I heard and saw the deer , took one shot and racked the bolt he was gone.  Hunted for four days after that, and unfortunately he never came back.  Tried everything; scents on the local scrapes , mock scrapes, antler rattling, doe bleats.  He was probably in the next county.

If you hunt differently, so be it.  Again sorry to offend.

[washguy]

Unz        "  Survivalshot mentioned previously he shot at a deer "hauling arse".  Is he breaking your moral hunting code?

Why yes as a matter of fact...im disappointed in him too....  

here in Texas we have no public hunting lands to speak of...so its all private land . it costs big money to hunt where the big deer are...couple of years ago my wife passed on a shot of a big buck because of the wrong way it was facing....we saw more deer that weekend but never pulled the trigger because we had horns on the wall that were larger and we had some meat in the freezer.... so that hunt was  5  thousand dollars and we never pulled the trigger ...still had a great HUNT.....like I said the first time   Your kind give hunters a bad name.... 

"How am I full of crap if I'm glad that I didn't even get close and completely missed, rather than wounding a deer? You've never shot at game that was moving?"    you made my point once again.....           Wash

btw...if the people that lease this property out for hunts read what you wrote...they wouldn't even let you in the front gate of their ranch

Edited December 4, 2017 by washguy

[unzman55]

You want to pay 5 grand for nothing, for no meat or antlers, good for you.  You want to make a perfect shot every time only, good go ahead. Not my fault you live and hunt in Texas.  Hunt another state then.  I didn't have any meat in the freezer.  That was the first and only deer I saw all season.  I'm not breaking any laws, or any rules.  Nothing says in the 2017 Wisconsin deer regulations you cant shoot at a moving target.  It's not my fault you want everyone to follow your "holier than thou", "purist", "supposed higher moral" hunting code.  Quit pretending your better than everyone else, you aren't.

Try hunting public land in another state.  Everything you'll experience there will be ten fold worse than anything I would come even close to doing.  A human making it alive out of those public woods is a plus. 

[Boot_Scraper]

Sandwich break!?

[unzman55]

3 minutes ago, Boot_Scraper said:

Sandwich break!?

LOL please, good grief. 

Edited December 4, 2017 by unzman55

[survivalshop]

1 hour ago, washguy said:

  "  Survivalshot mentioned previously he shot at a deer "hauling arse".  Is he breaking your moral hunting code?

Why yes as a matter of fact...im disappointed in him too....

  I disappoint a lot of people in life , so I don't take it personally any more   ( maybe I never did )

  I'm a Killer , plain & simple ,& I hunt with extreme prejudice ,any way I can take an animal legally is fine with me , when I hunt its for the meat , not the thrill of it all , though I do pass up a lot of shots & only take those I know I can make & since I have I am just about the only one who comes home with meat in camp on a yearly basis , I guess I'm must be doing something right , because I don't have to track wounded Deer , but have for many others.

  I'm no Horn hunter , never was , when I'm in the woods with a Firearm Hunting , I'm a cold blooded killer & need meat , where I hunt ( Private land, over 400 acres  , I'm a family friend ) you don't get many chances in the one week only Gun season & I live 1000 miles away from my Hunting grounds , I don't pass up much , as long as its mature .

   I always thought those who pay that much $$ for a Hunt , are executive hunters & they play by different rules .?

[unzman55]

12 minutes ago, survivalshop said:

  I disappoint a lot of people in life , so I don't take it personally any more   ( maybe I never did )

  I'm a Killer , plain & simple ,& I hunt with extreme prejudice ,any way I can take an animal legally is fine with me , when I hunt its for the meat , not the thrill of it all , though I do pass up a lot of shots & only take those I know I can make & since I have I am just about the only one who comes home with meat in camp on a yearly basis , I guess I'm must be doing something right , because I don't have to track wounded Deer , but have for many others.

  I'm no Horn hunter , never was , when I'm in the woods with a Firearm Hunting , I'm a cold blooded killer & need meat , where I hunt ( Private land, over 400 acres  , I'm a family friend ) you don't get many chances in the one week only Gun season & I live 1000 miles away from my Hunting grounds , I don't pass up much , as long as its mature .

   I always thought those who pay that much $$ for a Hunt , are executive hunters & they play by different rules .?

right there with you buddy.  I disappoint a lot too and could care less.  Giant game farm bucks are rare around here.  Half of them die over the crazy cold wisco winters.  I hunt for meat too, but I don't shoot Bambi. 

[sketch]

so im clear you posted no pics of the land and i was drawn in by the running shot on public land that seems dangerous to me and would hold off unless i could make the shot 100% of the time.. something to pratice for next time in the desert with no other inhabitant in harms way. ie hunter in orange stepping out after the buck?  Like i said ive been peppered enough to not hunt this year and i hope you dont get that same effect with a large bore rifle. better luck next time.

[unzman55]

I understand and appreciate your concern.  Plenty of times on drives or on public land where I haven't taken a easy clear shot out of safety's sake.  "Know your target and beyond".  If i see blaze orange, or even know that blaze could be in that general direction i won't take the shot. I have no interest in tagging a human or being tagged.  I refuse to hunt deer season around here anymore on public land, at least on opening day. It really is dangerous.  I wouldn't bring one of my kids out there for sure, it's getting bad.  Thank you for the good luck wishes sketch.

When I get the build done, I'll post range groups and the like.  I'm learning a lot about AR 10/PA 10 builds through this site and I appreciate it all, from everyone.

[washguy]

Survival/Untz       I guess us gentlemen hunters do live by a different set of rules.... my rules are right here ....so sad  Yall don't get it

Clean Kill or No Kill, Lord

0 Lord, I am a hunter
And life I seek to take
But let me not attempt the shot
Beyond my skill to make
For Lord they are your creatures
Given for our use
But each one falls within your sight
They're not for our abuse
And when I loose my shot

Please guide it swift and true
Or let it miss completely, Lord
That pain be not undue
A clean kill or no kill, Lord
Such is my heart's desire
Give me the skill to make it so
Or let me hold my fire
And when my time upon this earth
The days they are fulfilled
Grant that I may die at least
As clean as those I killed.

 

      Wash  

 

[survivalshop]

5 hours ago, washguy said:

   I guess us gentlemen hunters do live by a different set of rules.... my rules are right here ....so sad  Yall don't get it

     Don't get it ?   What don't I get  ?   You hunt your way & I hunt my way , to each their own .

       The only Animal that suffered ( only for a few seconds ) was the one I shot the leg off of & he was dispatched almost instantly with the follow up shot , its never meant to happen but does , when you walk in others shoes & see how hard it is to not go to a Hunt where they breed large racked Bucks for those who can pay for it , where you can pick & chose what you take , like a petting farm . I'll take any shot I believe I can make , its my decision & my experience that I can make it , I'm taking it , running , standing still , walking away , all the same to me. 

  I dont want anything to suffer  & I have ate many Deer tags in my time ,because I couldn't get a shot , that when I get the chance , I take it . I love Hunting & enjoy myself every time I'm out there & also enjoy watching the wild life , but when it comes to taking a shot , I'm stone cold , I think of them as the enemy & they are going to die ! 

   I have spent many , many ,ten hour days in a Tree Stand & never see a Deer or come close to getting a shot , do that for four or five days straight & maybe your attitude might change , maybe not !

 Have you ever Bow Hunted ?

[unzman55]

8 hours ago, washguy said:

Survival/Untz       I guess us gentlemen hunters do live by a different set of rules.... my rules are right here ....so sad  Yall don't get it

Clean Kill or No Kill, Lord

0 Lord, I am a hunter
And life I seek to take
But let me not attempt the shot
Beyond my skill to make
For Lord they are your creatures
Given for our use
But each one falls within your sight
They're not for our abuse
And when I loose my shot

Please guide it swift and true
Or let it miss completely, Lord
That pain be not undue
A clean kill or no kill, Lord
Such is my heart's desire
Give me the skill to make it so
Or let me hold my fire
And when my time upon this earth
The days they are fulfilled
Grant that I may die at least
As clean as those I killed.

 

      Wash  

 

1. The shot I took, was within my skill to take.  Made shots like that before, that day wasn't my day obviously.  It was in a safe direction, a follow up shot would have been too.  Want me to diagram it?
2. "Or let me miss it completely", was my point from before. 

"How am I full of crap if I'm glad that I didn't even get close and completely missed, rather than wounding a deer? You've never shot at game that was moving?"    you made my point once again.....           Wash

I don't know how much clearer I can make the point, it's in what you just posted.

You also said you have antlers on the wall bigger than what you could have taken at the game farm.  I don't.  In my approximate 20 years of deer hunting, I've only seen 4 bucks.  Three down out of four ain't bad.  Not a one of them over a seven pointer.  Two sixes, one seven, and mature.  The antlers aren't mounted because they're obviously nothing to brag about.  Wisconsin hunting ain't easy, there are no perfect conditions, I spend more time trying to prevent myself from becoming an icicle.  Try to make a shot out of a tree stand, in -10 degree wind chill with 8 layers of clothes, and a tree stand harness on.  It's not exactly shooting over wide open spaces with a shooting stick or bipod, one layer of clothing, and perfect weather conditions.

You usually only get one opportunity, two If your lucky.  And by "opportunity" I mean even seeing any deer.  There has been years I haven't seen anything but squirrels.

If I had 5 grand to spend on a hunting vacation, I sure as heck wouldn't be building a PA 10.  Nothing against PSA, they provide nice weapons for the average wallet.  There is better quality out there, not within my price range.  Nor is a hunting vacation.  I have to hunt where it's free.  Can't even afford to lease land, so I don't care what your game ranch thinks of me, I won't ever be going most likely (Powerball can you hear me?).

Anyone else have toddlers?  Like Elsa in "Frozen":  Let it go, let it go... (Sorry if it's stuck in your head now)

Can we just talk about PA 10's and gear now?  If I wanted a sermon, I'd just go to church.

Edited December 4, 2017 by unzman55

[mley1]

First, as a hunter, I'd suggest that getting a .308 AR is NOT so that you can spray and pray you hit the target animal. This idea that all hunters take running shots at deer is simply not accurate. In fact, I would suggest it's the opposite. Most of my hunting friends want the deer broadside, and standing still. They take great measures to ensure they DON'T take a running shot. With that said, I think the PA10 in .308 will make a great deer hunting rig. In fact, I put one together just for that purpose. And, I'll be using it deer hunting this next week.

On a side note, I will say that fast follow up shots on deer can be made with a bolt gun, especially a light weight and good fitting bolt gun. The PA10 is much heavier than ANY of my bolt guns. And, while the rate of fire on the PA10 may be faster, it's much slower to get into action due to its weight and size. In fact, if I were to pick a rifle for hunting a drive it would NOT be a PA10, or ANY .308 AR due to their weight and size. A light weight, slicked up, well fitting, bolt gun with good optics is MUCH better. And, YES, I've shot at running game and killed it WITH A BOLT GUN. However, I prefer a standing broad side shot. A .308 AR is NOT a fix for inadequate abilities with a bolt gun in a hunting situation.

Here's a pic of my PA10.