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Accurized AR Match, 24Jul21


98Z5V
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26 minutes ago, edgecrusher said:

Mine is a White Oak barrel but I’m in the same boat. I’m down to 4 lbs of Varget. Sucks. Right when I got going…

I hear great things about White Oak barrels.  Maybe I'll get one when I burn this one out.

Get in touch with Bruno Shooters Supply.  They had Varget when I was in there last week.

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10 hours ago, JBMatt said:

Yep, that's what I'm getting out of that same BA barrel. In testing I have multiple 5 shot groups at or under 3/4".  I use IMR 8208-XBR and CCI 450's and have single digit SD's.  Working really well.  Having trouble finding that powder and I'm down to 2 lbs.  I'll try this recipe if I need to.  Good to know there's another good one out there.  Anyone have a line on 8208 XBR?

Now, HOW MANY TIMES have I told you that Varget and RL-15 are damn near identical twins?...   How many?...   :popcorn:

Run out of one, start with the other at your exact same load, and see how it does.  Twins. 

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Just for note - CCI 450 Magnum primers and CCI 41 primers.  Exact same power, the CCI 41s are made to the "thick cup" dimensions that the .mil states.  Same power from them, the 41 has a thicker cup.  CCi 41s are a small tick larger in OD, too, for a tighter fit in the primer pocket.

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22 hours ago, JBMatt said:

@BigNate I just put together 50 test loads with that Hornady 75 gr BTHP w/ cannelure you just ordered to put through my 16" Wilson Combat. CCI #41, annealed and trimmed Lake City Brass. Notice I made 10 of @98Z5V preferred load so that I can give them a fair shake in testing.  Trying 3 different powders.  At 2.250" OAL, the cannelure is perfect and crimps just like it's factory.  Looking for that magic 2750 fps and under 1 MOA without pressure signs.  I'll letcha know how they work out.

20210727_094304.thumb.jpg.168e93801b72713a5a7a811f5d3e805d.jpg

Thanks a ton... Looking forward to hearing results... 

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12 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

Just for note - CCI 450 Magnum primers and CCI 41 primers.  Exact same power, the CCI 41s are made to the "thick cup" dimensions that the .mil states.  Same power from them, the 41 has a thicker cup.  CCi 41s are a small tick larger in OD, too, for a tighter fit in the primer pocket.

I did a primer test with my original, unsuppressed load for the 77 gr.  It's 24 gr of IMR 8208 XBR running a Federal 205M primer.  That's the unsuppressed formula and I've now refined it to 23.5 running a CCI 450 and suppressed.  I had a bunch of different primers and just wanted to see what the difference would make on that recipe.  Everything was the same with these loads.  Powder, bullet, depth, prep, all loaded and all shot at the same time staggered so that results would be consistent.  It was really interesting to see the difference between the CCI 41 and the CCI 450 compared to the Federal 205M that I had been running.  But as far as the 41 and 450 goes, there is a considerable loss in fps and half the SD.  Safe to say that the Remington 7 1/2 did not show well in this test.

20210721_073807.thumb.jpg.5241c4bf208ebea5eaf51b197e66a528.jpg

20210728_084652.thumb.jpg.86fce462fc069d4289f1ff4192a84789.jpg

Take out the flyers and the groups are fairly equal, except for the fps and SD.  70 fps slower and half the SD for the 450.

Obviously more testing could be done, but I'm satisfied with sub MOA results.  Now that I've refined the load at 23.5 with the CCI 450 I'm printing well under 1 MOA consistently.

424782160_Ballistic-X-Export-2021-06-1306_46_45.270196.thumb.png.9f1a2e22fcc91c337cecd027bfabefc0.png

Scope adjustment between groups.

1970055456_Ballistic-X-Export-2021-06-1318_23_05.665016.thumb.png.fefb4cec362531887f52dfaf3a86cc36.png

Different day, same load.

944067483_Ballistic-X-Export-2021-07-1111_53_17.814142.thumb.png.502421c6d6274c626f8becacc5f8d2b7.png

Damn flyers!  :fullauto:

1409681398_Ballistic-X-Export-2021-07-2809_23_15.841507.thumb.png.f95b19c65448626f82e08867de705d61.png


 

Edited by JBMatt
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19 minutes ago, BigNate said:

I picked up a bit of this stuff in case I can't get a load sorted out in the next few weeks.   

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2090124928

 

 

 

I found these while I was snooping around the other day.

https://www.alltacticalus.com/products/norma-101575502-7393923317175-4851

If you're not familiar with Ammoseek.com it's a great starting point for just about everything.  They seem to list about 90% of what online.

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43 minutes ago, JBMatt said:

I found these while I was snooping around the other day.

https://www.alltacticalus.com/products/norma-101575502-7393923317175-4851

If you're not familiar with Ammoseek.com it's a great starting point for just about everything.  They seem to list about 90% of what online.

Thanks much.   I've seen and bookmarked Ammoseek.com - but keep forgetting to use the bookmark... 😞

Those Norma rounds look spicy... 🙂   77gr at 2790 is about 100fps above the other factory match 77 stuff that I've found.   

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19 minutes ago, BigNate said:

Thanks much.   I've seen and bookmarked Ammoseek.com - but keep forgetting to use the bookmark... 😞

Those Norma rounds look spicy... 🙂   77gr at 2790 is about 100fps above the other factory match 77 stuff that I've found.   

edit... I lied... LOL  50 - 100 FPS

 

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11 hours ago, BigNate said:

Thanks much.   I've seen and bookmarked Ammoseek.com - but keep forgetting to use the bookmark... 😞

Those Norma rounds look spicy... 🙂   77gr at 2790 is about 100fps above the other factory match 77 stuff that I've found.   

It all depends on the barrel length, and what they're telling you on the box. 

You gotta remember...  the finest "sniper ammunition" ever developed for a military contract was the Mk 262 load, be it the Mod 0 load or the Mod 1 load (projectile difference, in the Sierra 77 SMK).  The ;mil fought Hornady, and Hornady fought the mil right back, saying "What you're looking for is impossible."  The .mil crown kept at it, made Hornady keep testing, and Hornady pulled it off.

The Mk 262 load is designed for 2750fps from an 18" barrel.  Period.  End of Lesson.  That's where the Magic happens on those 77gr and 75gr projectiles, through an 18" barrel, loaded to the strict .mil standards for accuracy for that load.  You don't get it to 2750?  It doesn't perform like intended.  You over 2750?  It's still making Magic, unless it's crazy hot, and blowing up guns.   

I've spent over 10 years "chasing the load," and trying to duplicate Mk 262 loaded ammunition.  My very first exposure to it was in late 2003, in Afghaniland, running it through M4A1 guns.  It's one hell of a loaded round.  My final refinement of it, over that time, has brought me to (stupid) accuracy levels through an 18" gun, and hammering down at 2789.75 fps.  <<<  That's average over 30 rounds through the chrono, through a warmed-up gun. 

So, here's the bottom line in that dissertation...   If somebody is advertising speeds on the box of ammunition - if they're not telling you what the barrel length is, for that stated speed - then it's a guessing game, until you buy some and break out your chrono, and see what's up.  If there's an ammo maker out there touting speeds on the box, for some loaded 5.56 77grain, or 75 grain, and they're not using an 18" barrel - then it's all lipstick on a pig.  They'll leave YOU figuring out if it's legit or not.  If it's not 2750fps from an 18" barrel - it's not legit. 

Here's some Mk 262 development backstory...

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/special-forces-to-civilians-black-hills-mk-262-mod-1-review/99098

After a reloading "issue" I had after Sandy Hook - EVERYTHING DRIED UP...   I couldn't find my Sierra 77gr SMKs anymore.  I switched to Hornady 75gr HPBTs.  I also had to switch powders, after that - my beloved Varget dried up. Completely.  Varget was gone for about 3 years after Sandy Hook, not to be found.  So, I switched to Alliant RL-15, Reloder 15.  Once I made some VERY MINOR tweaks to my previous 77 SMK/Varget load,with my new components, I noticed a very small gain in accuracy.  Very small, but still there.  This was sometime towards the end of 2013.  At that point, I made the change forever, and haven't looked back.  I further refined my Hornady 75 HPBT and RL-15 combo, and I'm quite happy with it.  I've got enough supplies stocked up, that I'll probably never have to change it again. 

 

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@JBMatt, here's an example of the "Optimized Brown Tip" that I told you about...  

It's Black Hills-loaded ammo, with the Barnes 70 TSX. This is the real, issued ammo right here.

https://www.armslist.com/posts/11705838/south-carolina-ammo-for-sale-trade--black-hills-manufactured--barnes-tsx-70-grain-otm-5-56-mm--brown-tip--naval-special-warfare--nsw--develo

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Starting in 2020 (ironically, the beginning of COVID-Hysteria), Hornady sells this ammo in 420-round sealed cans.  Here was their announcement:

 

What they stated was "10-round group must be 2" at 300 yards..."  What they DIDN'T state, was that each lot of production had to do that 5 times...  FIVE strings of 10-rounds, at 300 yards, smaller than a 2" group. 

It's the most extensively-studied loaded ammunition that Hornady has ever had to produce. 

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7 minutes ago, 98Z5V said:

Starting in 2020 (ironically, the beginning of COVID-Hysteria), Hornady sells this ammo in 420-round sealed cans.  Here was their announcement:

 

What they stated was "10-round group must be 2" at 300 yards..."  What they DIDN'T state, was that each lot of production had to do that 5 times...  FIVE strings of 10-rounds, at 300 yards, smaller than a 2" group. 

It's the most extensively-studied loaded ammunition that Hornady has ever had to produce. 

I understand that the going rate for these rounds is they trade 1:1 for 4X8 sheets of 3/4” floor ply…

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9 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

@JBMatt, here's an example of the "Optimized Brown Tip" that I told you about...  

It's Black Hills-loaded ammo, with the Barnes 70 TSX. This is the real, issued ammo right here.

https://www.armslist.com/posts/11705838/south-carolina-ammo-for-sale-trade--black-hills-manufactured--barnes-tsx-70-grain-otm-5-56-mm--brown-tip--naval-special-warfare--nsw--develo

I found the projectiles for sale, but at $1.00 ea I think I'll hold off for a while on playing with those.  Lol.

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10 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

It all depends on the barrel length, and what they're telling you on the box. 

You gotta remember...  the finest "sniper ammunition" ever developed for a military contract was the Mk 262 load, be it the Mod 0 load or the Mod 1 load (projectile difference, in the Sierra 77 SMK).  The ;mil fought Hornady, and Hornady fought the mil right back, saying "What you're looking for is impossible."  The .mil crown kept at it, made Hornady keep testing, and Hornady pulled it off.

The Mk 262 load is designed for 2750fps from an 18" barrel.  Period.  End of Lesson.  That's where the Magic happens on those 77gr and 75gr projectiles, through an 18" barrel, loaded to the strict .mil standards for accuracy for that load.  You don't get it to 2750?  It doesn't perform like intended.  You over 2750?  It's still making Magic, unless it's crazy hot, and blowing up guns.   

I've spent over 10 years "chasing the load," and trying to duplicate Mk 262 loaded ammunition.  My very first exposure to it was in late 2003, in Afghaniland, running it through M4A1 guns.  It's one hell of a loaded round.  My final refinement of it, over that time, has brought me to (stupid) accuracy levels through an 18" gun, and hammering down at 2789.75 fps.  <<<  That's average over 30 rounds through the chrono, through a warmed-up gun. 

So, here's the bottom line in that dissertation...   If somebody is advertising speeds on the box of ammunition - if they're not telling you what the barrel length is, for that stated speed - then it's a guessing game, until you buy some and break out your chrono, and see what's up.  If there's an ammo maker out there touting speeds on the box, for some loaded 5.56 77grain, or 75 grain, and they're not using an 18" barrel - then it's all lipstick on a pig.  They'll leave YOU figuring out if it's legit or not.  If it's not 2750fps from an 18" barrel - it's not legit. 

Here's some Mk 262 development backstory...

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/special-forces-to-civilians-black-hills-mk-262-mod-1-review/99098

After a reloading "issue" I had after Sandy Hook - EVERYTHING DRIED UP...   I couldn't find my Sierra 77gr SMKs anymore.  I switched to Hornady 75gr HPBTs.  I also had to switch powders, after that - my beloved Varget dried up. Completely.  Varget was gone for about 3 years after Sandy Hook, not to be found.  So, I switched to Alliant RL-15, Reloder 15.  Once I made some VERY MINOR tweaks to my previous 77 SMK/Varget load,with my new components, I noticed a very small gain in accuracy.  Very small, but still there.  This was sometime towards the end of 2013.  At that point, I made the change forever, and haven't looked back.  I further refined my Hornady 75 HPBT and RL-15 combo, and I'm quite happy with it.  I've got enough supplies stocked up, that I'll probably never have to change it again. 

 

Thanks 98Z - great info... 

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13 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

It all depends on the barrel length, and what they're telling you on the box. 

You gotta remember...  the finest "sniper ammunition" ever developed for a military contract was the Mk 262 load, be it the Mod 0 load or the Mod 1 load (projectile difference, in the Sierra 77 SMK).  The ;mil fought Hornady, and Hornady fought the mil right back, saying "What you're looking for is impossible."  The .mil crown kept at it, made Hornady keep testing, and Hornady pulled it off.

The Mk 262 load is designed for 2750fps from an 18" barrel.  Period.  End of Lesson.  That's where the Magic happens on those 77gr and 75gr projectiles, through an 18" barrel, loaded to the strict .mil standards for accuracy for that load.  You don't get it to 2750?  It doesn't perform like intended.  You over 2750?  It's still making Magic, unless it's crazy hot, and blowing up guns.   

I've spent over 10 years "chasing the load," and trying to duplicate Mk 262 loaded ammunition.  My very first exposure to it was in late 2003, in Afghaniland, running it through M4A1 guns.  It's one hell of a loaded round.  My final refinement of it, over that time, has brought me to (stupid) accuracy levels through an 18" gun, and hammering down at 2789.75 fps.  <<<  That's average over 30 rounds through the chrono, through a warmed-up gun. 

So, here's the bottom line in that dissertation...   If somebody is advertising speeds on the box of ammunition - if they're not telling you what the barrel length is, for that stated speed - then it's a guessing game, until you buy some and break out your chrono, and see what's up.  If there's an ammo maker out there touting speeds on the box, for some loaded 5.56 77grain, or 75 grain, and they're not using an 18" barrel - then it's all lipstick on a pig.  They'll leave YOU figuring out if it's legit or not.  If it's not 2750fps from an 18" barrel - it's not legit. 

Here's some Mk 262 development backstory...

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/special-forces-to-civilians-black-hills-mk-262-mod-1-review/99098

After a reloading "issue" I had after Sandy Hook - EVERYTHING DRIED UP...   I couldn't find my Sierra 77gr SMKs anymore.  I switched to Hornady 75gr HPBTs.  I also had to switch powders, after that - my beloved Varget dried up. Completely.  Varget was gone for about 3 years after Sandy Hook, not to be found.  So, I switched to Alliant RL-15, Reloder 15.  Once I made some VERY MINOR tweaks to my previous 77 SMK/Varget load,with my new components, I noticed a very small gain in accuracy.  Very small, but still there.  This was sometime towards the end of 2013.  At that point, I made the change forever, and haven't looked back.  I further refined my Hornady 75 HPBT and RL-15 combo, and I'm quite happy with it.  I've got enough supplies stocked up, that I'll probably never have to change it again. 

 

I just shot 100 rounds of that Hornady 75gr/24gr RL15 recipe last Saturday. Accurate as all get out out of my Colt HBAR 20” barrel.

Edited by Sisco
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12 hours ago, JBMatt said:

I found the projectiles for sale, but at $1.00 ea I think I'll hold off for a while on playing with those.  Lol.

They're worth developing a load, and keeping some loaded up.  Not for plinking.  They are DEVASTING on meat and bone.  :thumbup:

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AR-15 in 223 Wylde is built, scope is mounted, and rounds will be here tomorrow....  We'll see if I can pattern with it at a level that doesn't leave me pissed off and willing to spend twice a much on ammo for the AR-10.  😛

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Lonewolf McQuade said:

Are we not good enough for a pic of the finished product?😉

I didn't bring it to work with me...   some of the office ladies would probably frown on that...  😛   

I'll take and post a picture tonight... 

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Alright @98Z5V and @BigNate  I got out to run some testers through my 16" Wilson Combat.  I only have an 8x LPVO on this thing, but I was shooting pretty solid.  Trigger pull was consistent and the crosshairs were steady. As solid as one can at only 8 power.  I'd venture to say I could easily clean these up with a little more magnification, but it's what's on there for now.  The plan is to develop a 75 gr load for this, get a 10x on there and shoot the restricted class one day out at the Accurized AR Match.  But for now I'll just play around with it until the funds become available for another optic.  @98Z5V preferred load, 24.2 gr of RE 15 was a little slower than I'm looking for with this setup.  I was barely under an inch with 24.1 and 24.3.  24.2 blew out a little bit to just over an inch.  Not terrible but the SD's were heading in the right direction as it got faster. (accuracy node)  24.3 got me 2670 fps with 11 SD.  I ran a couple other powders and it looks like that 75 gr Hornady wants to fly closer to that magic 2750.  The book says max load is 24.9 gr, so I'm gonna try and get it there, if I can.  I'll keep playing with it.  It'll give me something to do...  Anyone know where there's a stash of RE 15?  Lol

38560943_Ballistic-X-Export-2021-08-0217_28_10.878449.thumb.png.b5295a176399fb478a0c0fbeeb7d99e2.png

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