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6.5 creed questions


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I notice that you're leaning towards lightweights BCGs and some other non-standard parts for this gun.  Why?  What are you looking for out of those items, and what do you think they'll do for you?

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Well, ideally in a perfect world.. in theory it would change the recoil impulse. Though, one would be able to argue both directions;

 

Less moving mass equals less sight disruption

 

Less moving mass means less forward momentum, which equals less muzzle dip. Could be a good/bad thing.

 

Honestly, the main purpose is to reduce gas present in receiver. Less blowback, less issues. Again, razor's edge. DI is dirty, but seems to be more consistent in groups than oprod guns. Or so I hear. Though, I have noticed that most guns are overgassed significantly. Which, if the weapon were maintained well.. along with consistent ammunition using a specific burn rate/range of propellant.. theoretically, the amount of gas being returned into the carrier could be reduced by measurable margin. Especially if intending to run suppressed only.

 

The notion about JP's split gasblock was due to it's attachment method. Would allow me to use a flange on barrel larger than gasblock journal. So a form1 could be threaded on as described previously.

 

So, would you have a list of known functioning dimensions of gas system stickied anywhere? I must have missed that...

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4 hours ago, PfcSnuffy said:

Well, ideally in a perfect world.. in theory it would change the recoil impulse. Though, one would be able to argue both directions;

 

Less moving mass equals less sight disruption

 

Less moving mass means less forward momentum, which equals less muzzle dip. Could be a good/bad thing.

 

Honestly, the main purpose is to reduce gas present in receiver. Less blowback, less issues. Again, razor's edge. DI is dirty, but seems to be more consistent in groups than oprod guns. Or so I hear. Though, I have noticed that most guns are overgassed significantly. Which, if the weapon were maintained well.. along with consistent ammunition using a specific burn rate/range of propellant.. theoretically, the amount of gas being returned into the carrier could be reduced by measurable margin. Especially if intending to run suppressed only.

 

The notion about JP's split gasblock was due to it's attachment method. Would allow me to use a flange on barrel larger than gasblock journal. So a form1 could be threaded on as described previously.

 

So, would you have a list of known functioning dimensions of gas system stickied anywhere? I must have missed that...

First - This thread is full of "win" - I look forward to reading it in the future when I'm working on a build... 

 

That said - this rookie (me) is going to chime in with a statement / question about your last post.   I have always been under the impression that with a common input force more accelerated mass will result in a longer accel / decel process and thus a lower impulse event - resulting in the need to exert less peak force on the system to control the muzzle.   In my understanding, minimizing mass makes sense for a race gun but only makes sense if you are going to minimize input energy as well.    I have a buddy that is a regionally competitive steel plate pistol shooter - and  some of his 9mm loads are so soft that I joke that my fat ass could race them to the plate and win.   His gun is tuned to function with these silly light rounds - huge mass in the frame, little mass in the slide, springs to match.   I doubt seriously that his rounds would cycle my stock Shadow 2... and my guess is that if I put a standard 124gr NATO load (that my shadow 2 LOVES) in his gun it might try to tear the slide off of the frame due to the lack of mass in the slide and lack of buffer spring... 

 

So - if you were building a pistol caliber carbine for some sort of short range speed shooting competition I'd think that the "lighter is better" rule would apply for BCG etc.   But you are building a 6.5 CM laser gun to shoot long heavy (relatively) bullets at at long ranges - I'd expect that this means that you want to find the fastest / flattest shooting load that the gun shoots accurately - and fast means more energy...  I would think that running high energy rounds in front of a super light BCG is going to result in higher impulse operations resulting in MORE muzzle movement and possibly dip as opposed to less?    

 

I may be totally wrong - just the mental ramblings of a relative rookie... looking forward to you, or 98Z, or some one else, setting me straight... 🙂

Edited by BigNate
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Ever fired a 240? The recoil in it is more abusive than an ar308/ar10. The large frame ar has significantly less mass, both reciprocating and static. Keep in mind, the reciprocating system is probably five times the weight of an ar308.

 

What is in motion tends to stay in motion.

 

I would rather have 1.5lbs at 20mph punch a 12lbs piece of metal into my chest over a 5lbs piece at 20mph punch a 20lbs piece into my chest.

 

The more I can make static while reducing the reciprocating, by all means will alter the recoil feel. I much prefer a push over a punch.

 

Now, all the same.. if I use less energy to push a smaller weight, it should by theory travel at an equal or slower rate.

 

Keep in mind, the total or 'net' energy will not change. I simply want to create more of a soft pulse.

 

Now, the reason why that machinegun uses a heavy operating system is to drive the muzzle forward. It helps settle the weapon and create more consistent grouping by resisting muzzle rise. However, on a semi-automatic.. I see little to no purpose of this. The other purpose is to overcome friction, thus allowing said weapon to chamber and fire the following round. Now.. with a slightly tighter set of tolerances, more well polished surfaces(reduced friction), less dirty powder(less gumming of action/receiver) and better consistency of rounds(charge weight, projectile weight&dimensions, brass tolerance).. by theory, a person could run a well tuned machine to the term of reliably. Or, so could be argued.

 

Plenty of people run 38super 2011 pistols with a 45k psi loading, pushing 115 or 124gr bullets to same power levels as a factory load 45acp and have no issues. One must keep in mind, that race gun may require impressive cleaning and maintenance, BUT it also can never fail. One malfunction means a lost paycheck. Which, when thousands are on the line...

 

Military standards are for a reason. Not because it is required for combat either. Ever met half of the enlisted troop? A lot of them are bare minimum, lie and procrastinate types of people.

 

I would be confident enough based upon race pistol experience that.. so long a person did not run a skeletonized weapon, while keeping it properly maintained - it may not be a real issue. If they understood maintenence and handloads were a standard requirement.

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31 minutes ago, PfcSnuffy said:

The more I can make static while reducing the reciprocating, by all means will alter the recoil feel. I much prefer a push over a punch.

 

Now, all the same.. if I use less energy to push a smaller weight, it should by theory travel at an equal or slower rate.

 

On this part we agree... 

 

I guess I had focused on working within the parameters of a gas system that was intended for the heavier BCG / Spring / etc...   I presume that the challenge is going to be found in tuning the system so as to reduce gas to the BCG to the level necessary to cycle the weapon consistently and with sufficient energy to both extract the case and then feed the next round - and to do that in a way that does not hammer the buffer into the back of the tube.  I presume that the lighter you get, the more precise the tuning requirements will be as the reduced mass (and I presume spring rate) will give a narrower window in which the gun will cycle properly without being over-gassed (again - speculating - and waiting for 98Z to yell at me... 🙂   ).  

 

Appreciate the opportunity to exercise some old and rusty brain cells. 

 

 

Oh - and my experience with (and as) an enlisted person many moons ago was different than what you described.   Folks who evidenced those tendencies got whupped into shape pretty quickly.   

 

Edited by BigNate
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1 hour ago, PfcSnuffy said:

I simply want to create more of a soft pulse.

I built a low reciprocating mass AR-15 that has been reliable as all get-out with a caveat. Uses a lightweight carrier, a buffer with no weights, and a 10% reduced power spring. It needs three clicks open on a SLR gas block to run with cheap Federal 223, weaker loads are fine if you turn it up, hotter loads don't seem to do as well.

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3 hours ago, PfcSnuffy said:

Ever fired a 240?

I've fired the 240 ALOT.  And 249s ALOT.  Even M-60s, again, ALOT.  The M2 and Mk19 are my favorites for crew-served, once you free-gun them, and get that T&E out of the way.  Honestly, if you're not counting artillery or tanks, there's not much I haven't fired, all the way up to 106mm Recoilless Rifle.  You can't even possible carry, or even pull a 106, so I'd take a 90 over that big thing any day of the week.   M-79 thumpers included. 

8 hours ago, PfcSnuffy said:

Well, ideally in a perfect world.. in theory it would change the recoil impulse. Though, one would be able to argue both directions;

 

Less moving mass equals less sight disruption

 

Less moving mass means less forward momentum, which equals less muzzle dip. Could be a good/bad thing.

 

Honestly, the main purpose is to reduce gas present in receiver. Less blowback, less issues. Again, razor's edge. DI is dirty, but seems to be more consistent in groups than oprod guns. Or so I hear. Though, I have noticed that most guns are overgassed significantly. Which, if the weapon were maintained well.. along with consistent ammunition using a specific burn rate/range of propellant.. theoretically, the amount of gas being returned into the carrier could be reduced by measurable margin. Especially if intending to run suppressed only.

 

The notion about JP's split gasblock was due to it's attachment method. Would allow me to use a flange on barrel larger than gasblock journal. So a form1 could be threaded on as described previously.

 

So, would you have a list of known functioning dimensions of gas system stickied anywhere? I must have missed that...

I'm glad you answered that one - I set that question up speficically last night, for a reason. 

I'll share my view on that.

Placeholder 6

I want to tell you guys a story, about reciprocating mass...

The only reciprocating mass in your AR is the BCG weight and the buffer weight.  Your BCG isn't really your "recoil system," but you need to take it into account when you're putting your recoil system together. Lightweight BCGs and all that crap belongs in race guns.

I built this gun up from a new rail purchase, and a bunch of "stolen parts" from the first .308AR that I ever built.  Mk11 Mod 0.   Ish...

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I shot this gun two weekends in a row.  Two Sunday's ago, I took it out for it's "break-in," even though the barrel is from 2010, and is well broken in.  At 100 yards, re-zeroing the scope to this gun (stolen scope), at lower magnifications, it was fine.  Felt like any other .308AR, as far as recoil goes. Scope didn't jump off target, etc...   I immediately moved to the 475 yard target that I put out there, and cranked up the magnification.  At that mag power, and distance - the scope was jumping off target with every single shot.  I never saw any of my own hits...  I had to wait for my spotter to yell "HIT!" or not, then (on hits) I'd hear the impact a moment later.  Never got to see one of them...

So...  This original gun had a Tubb CWS in it (Carrier Weight System), with the tungsten insert.  Why NOT just put it back in here, since I'd already stolen so much from that gun?... So, I did. 

The CWS body with the tungsten weight in it comes in at 112 grams = 3.95oz.  I'm already running a 5.200" long .308AR rifle buffer that weighs 5.4oz.  Full size (not lightened) Fulton Armory chromed BCG that weighs 535 grams (18.87oz).  And I added 3.95oz directly into the back of the BCG, directly to the reciprocating weight of the entire recoil system...   That's a Quarter Pounder...  Is it exactly the same adding that weight to the BCG body, as it is to the buffer itself?  It damn near is, because it's reciprocating weight that runs the gun. Wouldn't really matter if you added it directly to the BCG, or to the buffer weight.

How did it affect the function of the gun? Took it back out there last Sunday.  Stupendous difference at 475 yards.  Scope never came off target once, and I watched every single hit that I made, and I saw the shots that I missed - and corrected my own misses for the follow-up shots - because I could SEE THEM now... 

5.4oz buffer + 3.95oz CWS = 9.35oz of reciprocating weight, which IS NOT counting my BCG weight - a full weight BCG...  

And some of these manufacturers think that a weakling 3.8oz buffer actually works in a .308AR?...   Rubbish...  Bullshiit.  3.8oz buffers don't beling in .308ARs, unless that's the "tuned weight" that you came up with in your Race Gun build. I've proven this time and time again. 

My $0.02.

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9 hours ago, PfcSnuffy said:

So, would you have a list of known functioning dimensions of gas system stickied anywhere? I must have missed that...

No.  I've never posted a list like that, but that's a good idea.  I know exactly where I'm going to post it, too.  Won't be able to work on that until next week, with a shoot coming up on me fast this Saturday, but I'll make one.

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Most race guns also have BIG compensators. A good muzzle break will help keep you on target and reduce recoil. Compensators work better the more gas you pass through them.

My 9x21 loads made major and that compensator kept the muzzle down.

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7 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

No.  I've never posted a list like that, but that's a good idea.  I know exactly where I'm going to post it, too.  Won't be able to work on that until next week, with a shoot coming up on me fast this Saturday, but I'll make one.

Appreciated.

 

Hopefully you get it stickied. Best luck with your shoot. I hope to hear good results in the future. No rush on that data chart. Push all that right.

 

I suppose a lot has to do with your ammunition selected and tuning the firearm to it. If you were using max loads behind 168-180gr bullets... you may very well need the heavier weight to settle sights. Also, it looks like you are using a muzzle device. Pending the device nature.. it may be used to reduce perceived recoil instead of push the muzzle downward. --

As I stated, heavier mass drives the sights back into position. Which, as recoil energy goes up, so do the sights. Additionally.. if you are firing it off a bench, with bipod and sandbag.. it may be slightly different than when leaning into weapon. One thing I have noticed is posture affects things more than anything else. Even when zeroing my rattled out m4.. if I just let it sit softly on the bags, it will bounce a lot. Off of the mansized silhouette backer at 25m.

******

Far as service goes - boys... it the new army. They now allow transgender, long hair, painted nails, earrings, makeup. Anything a noncom does will likely cost them their career. It is easier to give 4856 words and let the chapter begin. Wait two years and the problem gone with a bar. Enough said right there......

******

My initial thought was using a .06# gas port and progressively enlarging it until the weapon ran consistent and reliable when hosting suppressor and firing specific load. Though, that may prove to be a pain. There would have to be an err of margin, being still overgassed.. compensating for lot variance in powders, also while allowing for a range of powders in a specific category of burn chart. Though, that is same idea issued weapons run on... just I would like to be less over gassed.

 

I tried using that 10oz heavy buffer from slash in this 308 configuration. All I will say is, the jp scs and reducing gas a bit made the same loads feel much different. Now, all this said... unless I am using sling and in a good firing position, the 308 seems to bounce off target pretty often. To my knowledge, that has always been a concern. Plunging effect and recoil. For many groups using precision weapons.... Which is my push for better bc's and more modern expanding projectiles. I am not held to warfare conventions as an individual... so..

 

Thank you to all whom are and have been participating. I appreciate all of you equally. Hope that nothing I have said was taken to be insult or arguementive. Not how was intended or delivered on my end.

 

V/R

Snuffy

 

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On 8/27/2021 at 3:22 AM, PfcSnuffy said:

Hopefully you get it stickied. Best luck with your shoot. I hope to hear good results in the future. No rush on that data chart. Push all that right.

It'll be posted in a topic that is already pretty prominent.  It's my "years-of-research" topic.

The shoot sucked for me today, mainly, and overall.  More shooters than we've ever had, I was "squad mom" again - which means keeping it running, spotters, timers, scoring.  I ran scoring until it was time for me to shoot, and picked up scoring again after.  Zero time for pics from this one.  Just descriptions, words, and a story that I haven't written yet.

I fukked up and did something to my gun, and didn't make sure the zero was on, afterwards.  I'll describe that later, in the other thread.  Out of 5 stages, I blew 2, didn't do great on 1, and cleaned 2 stages.  One of the stages I blew this month, I cleaned with ease 2 months ago.  Just wasn't working for me today.  And, that's how it goes. 

It's not bench, nowhere near.  It's more like PRS for gas guns.  Hell, it IS a PRS match for gas guns.  And ONLY gas guns.  No bolt guns allowed.  Max distance today was 655 yards, and that was one that I cleaned.  Ridiculous, what I didn't make. 

Here's where the known-positive gas port information will end up, when I get it together:

 

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On 8/24/2021 at 1:54 AM, PfcSnuffy said:

You mentioned using the armalite springs. Any reason that specific spring over any others? I have used the jp silent capture, the tubbs springs, even tried the slash heavy buffer business.... eh.. i think the tubbs spring and adjusting gas worked "best"(easiest).. the silent capture was nice. More work than the tubbs route and not certain if it is actually "more efficient". Though, it is nice by merit. Not likely ever to use the heavy buffer system again.

 

Really thinking about switching to a light mass buffer and carrier for the long gun. I am pretty consistent with cleaning. Although, reducing mass in rear of rifle does offset balance. Makes me think about few other things. Have seen people put lead weights in a2 stocks and the ubr stocks.

Armalite recoil springs, for Large Frame ARs.  Eugene Stoner figured that out, and he's way smarter than me.  The same spring runs both carbine and rifle receiver extensions, when the recoil system (buffer weight) is at the PROPER weight, for a Large Frame AR.  Same spring for both, made my the same company, made to the same dimensions and standards everytime...  Is a winner. 

It's not some foolish "aftermarket parts company" that doesn't even make a firearms, but they make parts - and they don't know the difference between a DPMS LR-308 recoil system, and the Armalite AR-10 recoil system...    It's not PSA, that routinely send out AR15 Carbine springs in their PA-10 .308ARs...  

The aftermarket is the the primary reason you can't just "trust a spring."  Many of those companies don't even make a gun - but they want in on the market. The Secondary reason is marketing information...   TOO MANY conpanies just list everything as "AR-10". Yeah?  Nowhere near AR-10 - stick their "AR-10" upper that they're advertising, on an Armalite AR-10B lower - it won't even pin.  Because aftermarket parts companies, can't even advertise their parts correctly, and don't know the smallest difference between a DPMS LR-308 pattern and the Armalite AR-10 pattern.  Trust those guys with making a proper spring, to control the recoil in a Large Frame AR?  When most of them don't even make a gun in the first place?

I don't.  Not at all, and it's been proven here, time and time again, with fucked up recoil springs that don't even belong in an AR15, let alone in a Large Frame AR...  

So, if you (first) use a recoil system that has enough ass to control the mass (of the recoil impulse and power of the .308 WIn cartridge, over the AR15s 5.56x45) go to the company that invented the system in the first place.  Armalite EA1095 springs work in rifle and carbine recoil systems (with the proper recoil system components on your gun), they make them the exact same way, everytime, from the same materials, to the same specs.  They just don't fuk that up.

But other companies do, routinely.

They only other recoil spring on the market that mirrors the performance of the Armalite EA1095 spring is the Sprinco RED Spring.  Sprinco doesn't do anything BUT performance springs, that's their job, and they're damn good at it.  I have several of their parts, for other things.  For .308ARs and other large frame calibers, the EA1095 is a no-brainer, though.  If they were sold out everywhere, in the world, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Sprinco RED for a gun build. I'll just pay twice as much for it.

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39 minutes ago, 98Z5V said:

Have seen people put lead weights in a2 stocks and the ubr stocks.

Just did this last week.   You're talking about this:

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First month out on this match series for me was 4 months ago.  Shot the LaRue 6 ARC gun.  Didn't have the magazine-feeding issues figured out yet  - which were no big deal on the range, but were a big deal in a match...  This was the first time out, REALLY testing it - this gun.

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We had to shoot out of stuff like this...

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After that first match, and the feeding issues with Grendel mags, and the 6 ARC projectile, I shelved that gun for competition, until I solved the mag-part of the equation.  I had it figured out, before the next match, but my mind was made up.  The next gun going to the next match was the Mk12 Mod 1, 5.56 gun, 75gr Hornady handloads with a BDC scope.  And that's what I've been shooting since.

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Gun performed flawlessly, until last month, when we had to shoot from THIS THING!

 

That thing fucked us up so bad, that we had our OWN version built by the next Saturday.

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I got that thing swinging so bad in the match, firing when the swing was coming back, that it was like a kid on a swingset...  Until I accidentally fired whilst going forward - and it STOPPED, COMPLETELY.   Right then, we decided to build our own, to practice from. And it works, GREAT.

So, I never realize - until that vid, and that match, how bad an A2 FH is for recoil.  Until I was suspended, swinging, shooting.  I changed the muzzle device out for the VG6 2-port brake and a the CAGE device.  Works on all the Grendels, Valk, and ARC well.  As well as the Mk11.  Took it out last weekend, and it made a change in the zero.  No issue, re-zero'd the scope, shot 1 mil low, 1 mil right.  Fixed it.  THIS week, the 3.5lb buttstock weight arrived, on Thursday.  Slapped that thing in there, shot this morning. 

No re-zero.  That fucked me.  Today.

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ELIMINATED scope movement.  ELIMINATED felt recoil.  Completely.  I knew my misses before spotters called them, and often made follow up shoots for those misses, and made hits - before the calls came out.  However, it shifted my zero...  On big targets at distance, no issue, I was on, or missed and sent another, sometimes before the calls were even made.  On the tiny targets, it was off.  And I missed those bastards.  Today was a great success,and sucked at the same time - because I changed the gun, and didn't re-verify zero before going out there to zero it again.

So, those buttstock weights - just like I was talking about adding 3.95oz to the back of the buffer - they make an accuracy difference.  And the difference is in follow-up shots. 

Lightweight race gun parts, for a gun that you're designing - a combat gun.  That's oil and water, right there.  My $0.02 on that.

Edited by 98Z5V
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On 8/26/2021 at 3:08 PM, BigNate said:

Less moving mass equals less sight disruption

On a .308AR, .308 Win handload, I've put more moving mass into the BCG, and it's proven to be less sight disruption.  It's already a heavy gun, so I added where I could.  Follow-up shots were easy after that.

On a 5.56 gun, I've added 3.5lbs to the buttstock, a good brake, and it's completely changed the recoil impulse. As far as today goes. I haven't tested it off the Sex Swing yet, but I'll probably do that next Sunday morning, just to see for myself, with as-rapid-fire-shots as I can make them, on the 450 target.  My main opinion on this all is- lightweight is not where it's at, for what you're describing as a goal.  You don't want an 80lb gun...  Might as well ruck a M2 and tripod...  But lightweight internal parts are not your answer.  Unless = Race Gun = Only 1 tailored load for that Race Gun that works, and nothing else does.

Edited by 98Z5V
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On 8/26/2021 at 10:24 AM, PfcSnuffy said:

Well, ideally in a perfect world.. in theory it would change the recoil impulse. Though, one would be able to argue both directions;

 

Less moving mass equals less sight disruption

 

Less moving mass means less forward momentum, which equals less muzzle dip. Could be a good/bad thing.

 

Honestly, the main purpose is to reduce gas present in receiver. Less blowback, less issues. Again, razor's edge. DI is dirty, but seems to be more consistent in groups than oprod guns. Or so I hear. Though, I have noticed that most guns are overgassed significantly. Which, if the weapon were maintained well.. along with consistent ammunition using a specific burn rate/range of propellant.. theoretically, the amount of gas being returned into the carrier could be reduced by measurable margin. Especially if intending to run suppressed only.

 

The notion about JP's split gasblock was due to it's attachment method. Would allow me to use a flange on barrel larger than gasblock journal. So a form1 could be threaded on as described previously.

 

So, would you have a list of known functioning dimensions of gas system stickied anywhere? I must have missed that...

Ok my two arrowheads, 6.5 CM and 308 both in ten lb guns do not have much at all for recoil, it just does not exist so you are worrying about something that really is nothing. If it is not going to be a long range weapon then it is a waste of caliber on the CM the 308 can be a very good combat rifle and long range weapon but you need to choose the direction you are going. if long range is your goal then you have to learn to shoot prone and there is a ton of stuff to learn but one thing many over look is the rifles buttstock and how it acts when it recoils you do not want catchy sling swivels a or anything on the part that rests on the bag you want that to recoil straight back and when you get that combo right you can watch the vapor trail of your bullet and it's impact... that is like a hallelujah moment to learn that skill because it all comes together after that.

  I have friends who think they can shoot long range without going prone Ha! BS yes you can make a shot once in a while but you are never rock solid I still struggle with being comfortable i have to make myself be that way but once there you can sleep, wake up and the scope is still on target...I shoot a bolt gun at all my matches 6.5x284 Norma it is a 6.5 CM on steroids but my next project is a 6.5 CM gas gun and that is what I will shoot next year.. hopefully but all that I have learned from bolt guns has transferred to hunting very well as I use a 308 Gas gun in the 10 lb range with ammo and extras I have killed a lot of elk deer and bears with it  the weight is welcomed when I am shooting animals at 300 400 etc then after the animal is down is when I wished it weighed 5 lbs lol good luck.

1031150956.jpg

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So, what you are telling me is.. the guy who set this up as 18" m118lr chamber with rifle gas. A criterion hybrid barrel.. the geisselle dmr trigger, magpul a2 stock, 10oz heavy buffer, deewillson bcg(nitride) and a partskit ar15 package did well enough? It has non adjusting gasblock and nothing special for small parts.

 

Also, that I am not going to get any better than what it is. Running 6.5 with a better bc bullet is also going to wash?

 

Anything else?

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7 hours ago, PfcSnuffy said:

So, what you are telling me is.. the guy who set this up as 18" m118lr chamber with rifle gas. A criterion hybrid barrel.. the geisselle dmr trigger, magpul a2 stock, 10oz heavy buffer, deewillson bcg(nitride) and a partskit ar15 package did well enough? It has non adjusting gasblock and nothing special for small parts.

 

Also, that I am not going to get any better than what it is. Running 6.5 with a better bc bullet is also going to wash?

 

Anything else?

That sounds like a solid parts list, full of damn good hardware.  You will definitely see a flatter shooting projectile in 6.5C, for sure, and it'll have longer range before going transonic, and carry more energy on impact at those longer distances.  My opinion is that the proper .308 win round can be very effective, and do very well at distance - but it's still not going to beat a good 6.5C load, nor .260 Rem load. 

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So, if I am going to single load each round and am not part of a formal fighting unit... is it worth getting a new barrel and bolt, dies, projectiles and running 130gr otm's? Like; inside neck expanding mandrels, lathing outside neck dimensions to uniform standing, reaming all primer pockets to be uniform. Use a drop tube, settle the powder.. Turn the round upside down before seating projectile. Use a precision arbor press with guage. Ensure runout is minimal.

 

How much more could I see in benefit? If... no costs are considered. Would the 18" heavy barrel do fine?

 

Stick with the 10oz buffer or go lighter? Will be suppressed...

 

Nightforce sells at a reasonable discount to me, so... what glass? Nx8 2.5 to 20? Or.. just get the atacr 5-20? The 1-8x nx8 has a decent reticle and would work well. I am sure it would provide ample stretch room.. well past 600yards. Though, it's overall precision may begin to fade.

 

Lastly - anyone have a surplus of pistol grips sitting around? My miad grip is ok.. but, I am considering the tactical deluxe from ergo. Similar angle of grip. Just overmolded and more palm swell.

 

Right now, I have a PSR atlas bipod in my sights. Going to swap my angled grip off, use the tall bipod as a handstop/forward stop.. slap some ergo/bcm keymod skins on the handguard between bipod and use mini vert grip behind the grip panels(closer to mag).

 

Any good keymod qd mounts? I looked at the bcm ones. Currently have a ms1/ms4 magpul sling. It is... ok. But, I am not particularly fond of it. Only benefit I see is the ms4 attachment allows me to singlepoint the weapon while manualing up or down rough terrain. Hang it against my back.

 

I am semi-interested in the sling JP vends. With that spring loaded buckle. My magpul slider will snag about anything and self adjust. Not acceptable.

 

Appreciated. Hope to hear more.

 

Thank you

V/R

Snuffy, McGee

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1 hour ago, PfcSnuffy said:

So, if I am going to single load each round and am not part of a formal fighting unit... is it worth getting a new barrel and bolt, dies, projectiles and running 130gr otm's? Like; inside neck expanding mandrels, lathing outside neck dimensions to uniform standing, reaming all primer pockets to be uniform. Use a drop tube, settle the powder.. Turn the round upside down before seating projectile. Use a precision arbor press with guage. Ensure runout is minimal.

 

How much more could I see in benefit? If... no costs are considered. Would the 18" heavy barrel do fine?

 

Stick with the 10oz buffer or go lighter? Will be suppressed...

Definitely leave the 10oz buffer in there, if you're keeping it .308 Win.  I've personally seen the benefits of that, myself.  Keeps the scope ON target, after firing. 

For all that other stuff - if I was building a 6.5 creedmoor for distance, I'd be loading the 147 Hornady ELD-M.  The 153 A-Tip doesn't give enough benefit in BC over that 147, to switch to it, and it's added expense. Ironically, I'm loading 147 ELD-Ms for my .260 Rem.  That's the one...

For everything else - what you're describing for precision loading of ammo (I think)  -  I don't do any of that stuff.  Never heard of it, before you mentioned it.    Especially turning a round upside down before seating a projo. 

the only thing that is gonna answer most of your questions -reverts back to one of my earliest questions.  Distance.  Your gun is already built with a very, very nice 18" barrel.  I run an 18.5" very, very nice barrel.  It's supersonic to 1050 yards with a 178 expanding hunting projectile.  What you need is up to you - not any of us.  The one I have does exactly what I need it to do, and then some.  Would I change it?  Nope, not a single thing.  I wanted a gun to do something different, so I built another gun, the .260 Rem. 

Edited by 98Z5V
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What bullet are you using and at what velocity? Powder?

 

Most precision shooting will use a seating die and a press. They put the bullet in, assemble the die and invert it. This makes powder fill the shoulder area around base of bullet. Keep in mind the primer is now at 12oclock, projectile at 6. Powder fills areas that cannot be filled when the primer is at 6oclock.

 

It reduces the amount of crushing powder grains. Between that, uniform primer pockets and necks... people say it reduces ES. Enough those silly BR guys do this stuff regularly.

 

Why not use the 130 otm over the 140's? The higher velocity and similar bc would almost make a flatter shot. Granted more drift, but.. better for unknown distances.

 

The issue is, 30cals in the 150-155 range that could perform a better unknown distance shooting tend to be very secant and.. from my understand a real pain about getting good groupings from in gasgun.

 

So, you are telling me with equal case prep and reloading.. good powder and projectiles.. I would not see much difference shooting to 800m?

 

Which powders, projectiles and general charge weights?

 

I thought about picking up some imr 3031 the other day. Had a chance. Then, running a 155 to 168 weight bullet. Loading for smallest groups and just dropping them indirect fire style downrange. Though, I am not entirely sold.

 

I was asking about different grips - if anyone has a bunch for some comparisons of opinion.

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In 6.5 CM H4350 is about like peanut butter is to jelly it is the bomb I have always shot the Hornady  140 ELD for steel matches but now in 6.5 x284 Norma I shoot berger Hybrids and IMO they are a better bullet the whole deal with expanding mandrels is to get consistent bullet release I use them in bolt guns because I have no Crimp but in a gas gun I am not sure it would work the same ,someone with more know how than me would have to answer that .

   But loading for a gas gun and a bolt gun are two different animals unless you are loading one at a time and then what have you gained might as well have a bolt gun...

  I anneal my brass after every two firings do Gas gun shooters anneal? I do not know as I do not try to be a surgeon with mine out past 600 that is my self imposed limit for my 308 but with a 16 inch barrel and factory barnes 168 TTSX no critter wants me shooting at them...

  Here is a question for anyone who knows do you think a gas gun can be MOA at 1000 if so what or how would you load for it ?

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I have been told it is possible to make well placed shots at that range with issued weapons... someone from snipershide did a video showing ipsc sized steel being hit at like 1100?

 

Also, I have been told some people use bushings at .003 and .004" of sizing fit. Unsure how well it works.

 

Suppose it is all a different animal.

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6 hours ago, Armed Eye Doc said:

@98Z5V and @JBMatt have hit IPSC target at 1000+ yards.  

I've taken my 6.5 gas gun out to 1500 hitting a milk jug.  Was running out of optic, but got it done at 1,000, 1,200 and 1,500.  Hit a 30" plate at a mile, as well.  Was definitely out of optic.  308 will get it done too, just takes way more effort.  Not worth it, in my opinion.

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