A.James

Awesome! Yeah I was looking into that barrel specifically. 1016S-HYR I believe the part number is. Thanks for the recommendation! Found it for around two ninety, you think that’s a decent price?

I loved it there too, and I agree, could never live there again.

Southern habits die hard... sir. I’m a little jealous of your space freedom, but maybe third time’s the charm - they say! 😉 Thank you, regardless of your modesty, you definitely do your part on this forum. Thanks for hanging in there with me!

Thank you sir!

Thanks guys. I suppose I was trying to hit a homer on the first pitch... high hopes? Yeah I think so, but the higher we set our goals, the greater heights we can achieve. I’ll be paying a bit more in the long run probably, but those dollars will be well spent to acquire the experience to tune it myself, hopefully with the guidance of those willing to continue to lend a hand. I’ll put together a parts list tomorrow and post it here. If anything looks incompatible and you happen to notice, please let me know! Thank you all again for the advice and schooling. So much. I have a bit more confidence moving forward at this point and I’m excited to get my hands dirty. I’ll update here as I grab stuff - might be kind of slow going from here on out, thanks for sticking around! Knowing myself, I’m sure I’ll get onto some deeper topics as this thing starts to come together, but I’ll try to keep my future posts on more an update basis rather than a request for full on lessons like I’ve been so blessed with. Thanks again everyone. I’m excited to talk more when I’ve got something to show from these great talks! 🙏

I think you are confirming my final sentiment from my previous post. My “cry once” will be worth the gains of experience and firsthand understanding. I appreciate your push in this direction, especially because it saves my wallet (until I get to the range for troubleshooting). I don’t think I’m over thinking it, but based on your comment here, I believe I may be thinking that the bandwidth of efficacy of these buffer changes is greater than it actually is. Perhaps I was thinking changing the buffer weight could have a 20x effect when in reality it could only be a 2x effect (just throwing out hypothetical/relative numbers). I’ve shot enough to know that comparable rifles shoot differently, maybe my strongest asset to gain would be range time and evaluation on a personal level. Then I could report back with my perceptions, refer to the ideas of the great minds here, and nail down some factual specs to go along with my [near future] experiences. I get physics, and I know Mr. Stoner probably evaluated the ideas I’m bringing up here. But, he tested all his theories and solidified a working system through endless experimentation. I’m not trying to improve upon his parameters, just trying to sync the [never ending .308AR] modifications that we see today (including my goals on this build) with the proven specs he came up with - thanks DPMS! Lol... Wasn’t he first concerned with overall gas pressure, which then led him to his design on barrel length vs. gas system length/diameter/flow vs. reciprocating mass?

Precisely what I was thinking. Looking at TBAC Ultra 7, the greater mass on the muzzle end has more inertia which would “fight” muzzle rise, the can captures some gas before bullet leaves barrel, lessening gas system pressure over time, but extending dwell time (perhaps marginally) compared to a bare muzzle... If I recall my homework correctly, the Ultra 7 is [anecdotally] pretty forgiving in the sense of back pressure to the receiver area relative to other suppressors I’ve looked into, which may require a lesser mass than [for discussions sake] HeavyBuffers’ maximum recommendations (up to 10 oz. rifle buffer) for suppressed use - especially if their evaluation of “suppressed use” involved testing of suppressors including those that have been reported to add significant back pressure to the receiver area. I’m still HOPING for a carbine length extension (either AR15 7” or AR10 7 5/8”) for a shorter collapsible stock length, but I feel if @98Z5V had issue WITHOUT suppressor on AR10 length rifle extension and rifle gas, 16” barrel length - pushing him toward 9.5~ish oz. of buffer + added [BCG] reciprocating mass total, I *MIGHT* need a similar amount of mass to sling those heavier projectiles with perhaps lighter powder loads, to stay on target, especially when suppressed. Which would mean my ideal stock and buffer system might be “not enough,” proving to require rifle buffer and stock. I’m trying to dial in the theory as close as possible before purchasing. Buy once. If it “tames” gas to recoil, then that would imply I need less total mass than 98 did based on his findings. The suppressor being added (as far as muzzle rise, inertia, physics; are concerned) kind of seems counter intuitive to the general “marketed” recommendation of additional buffer mass for suppressed use. I’m looking to find the best balance possible before adjusting the gas block. The adj. gas still reads [to me] as being the last step. Am I wrong here? Please correct any theory that is out of line. I feel like I’m being tutored for a test, and when I put my parts list together here (hopefully by page 3 😂) it will be my final exam as far as “should it work!?!” goes... I feel like we are getting into “set” gas block territory, and the adjustable gas block kind of greys-out some of this black and white. I think I’m really getting the hang of this .308AR theory, PLEASE correct me if I’m wrong. The more I understand about the scientific/physics variables to this overall equation, the more success I’ll have when I fire that first 20rd mag. For the record, the more time goes on in this thread, I’m beginning to feel like going for cheapest components at first may be my best bet. Gaining experience building/troubleshooting, as well as experience shooting and familiarizing myself with feel seems like the biggest win from my first 308 build. From there I could potentially increase buffer mass, improve parts one at a time until I have a bombproof weapons system. Then all those replaced parts (now spare parts) could be the foundation of my next experimental build. I’m not trying to skip steps, just trying to take as much time researching step 1 so I don’t shoot myself in the foot, METAPHORICALLY SPEAKING.

@sketch True. Lived in Seattle from 2013-2015, Colorado in 2016, back to Portland since 2017. I guess I’m naturalized at this point?

Hypothetically, yes. I’d hope I can find a solution in a carbine extension for a collapsible stock. I’m not sure 10oz would be necessary or even appropriate for my goals, so I guess that’s what I’m looking for advice on. The marketed applications on HeavyBuffers recommend more mass for suppressed weapons - from what I understand, to compensate for increased pressure that the suppressor might contribute to. Balancing the entire system. More mass needs more gas? The hypothetical shortfall of “too much buffer mass” being a gas port diameter that’s too small, right? (Including wide open on an adjustable gas block?) Conversely, more gas needs more mass? “Over-gassed” meaning buffer mass is too low...? Trying to test my understanding of the balance required. I’m beginning to foresee some of the issues I’ll probably run into in my first build, and it seems a lot of solutions have already been shared in the attached posts in this thread. The fix to having too much mass for the system would be to drill a larger diameter of the gas port? Sounds like lower total mass of the recoil system will jump up more vs. higher mass might dip down... This is more what I’m looking to address when I said diminishing returns. Then I could drill the gas port wide enough for proper cycling/function, and finally dial it into the zone with the adjustable gas block. The overall question is, “assuming I match my buffer mass to gas port diameter/entire gas system for the balance required for proper operation, what level of total mass will keep me the flattest?”

@jtallen83, I looked over those threads and read them from where you linked until the end. Had a GOOD laugh at the X-Caliber rep and all the flame he caught after his post. LOL!!! The threads there were pretty old, can you update me on how things worked out in the end? Have you heard of others running into similar problems with these barrels? I've read some bad reviews but also read a lot of good ones. Any comment on QC in recent years from X-Caliber? Thanks for sharing your experience!

Thanks! Just went back to read that one again. You already corrected me, using the standard buffer weight, adding mass ONLY to the BCG. I hear you loud and clear, mass could be in either position because it’s all working together. This “if I have that issue” is what I’m trying to avoid. Based on what I’m reading from you, other posters, and at HeavyBuffers, it seems more mass in the buffer/carrier will equate to softer recoil impulse - just plain physics, right? Is there a point of diminishing returns? Still TRYING to keep OAL down, I see a few options with the AR15 carbine vs. AR10 carbine vs. AR rifle buffer tubes and stocks: 7” AR15 Carbine tube with 6.5oz buffer allows shortest collapsible carbine stocks, improved recoil over standard 5.4oz buffer. Objectives #2 and #4 are upheld, #5 could still see improvement. 7 5/8” AR10 carbine tube with 8.5oz buffer allows more reciprocating mass with a slight addition to overall length - unless there is some collapsible/lightweight stock out there for this length receiver extension that I have yet to stumble upon. Objectives #2,4,5 are balanced here. 9 5/8” (I’ve also read 9 11/16”) AR rifle tube with 10oz buffer provides softest recoil at the cost of running a longer (and heavier) stock. Objective #2 goes right out the window, #4 is compromised, #5 is GOLD. To reiterate, I prefer to chase objective #5 at the cost of #4, but we’re losing a lot of clearance in order to make this gun shoot smoother. Again, does it need to be any smoother? Diminishing returns? I assume it will come down to shooters preference if/when to surpass a buffer weight that keeps the crosshairs on target. But I do feel like there is a minimum mass to aim for in order to balance the entire system. Anything beyond that is [mostly] comfort?

Damn. Those are a couple of cute little fur balls. Now, what was I reading about...? ...? ...Oh that’s right! 98’s Mk11 Mod 0!

I didn’t mean to sound like I didn't believe you, I echoed your statement. I was pouring over the schematics to try to figure out what the minimum barrel length could be on the RLGS, I wasn’t trying to disprove any info provided because I recognize the caliber of people I’m dealing with here. I’m the new kid in class. I’m learning new things. But I always read ahead, and ask questions for retention and understanding. 14.5” ain’t long enough, that’s a FACT. Never doubted ya. Like you said, until I have the barrel in my hands I won’t know for sure, I’m just speculating that 15” could be long enough. Maybe 15.1” - maybe 15.2” - maybe 15.3” etc., depending on how my barrel is drilled. And once again, we won’t know what’s possible with any given barrel until it’s in hand - because different manufacturers are doing different things with their .308AR barrels... Haha no worries, brother. My apologies if I seemed like a brat. Once again, based on everything I’ve read in your posts in this thread and in others, you’re very good at providing data to back up your facts. I’ve really begun to rely on your knowledge because it’s some of the only stuff out there that I trust. There is a lot of internet mumbo jumbo out there (claims), but the way you present your experience and back it up makes it super easy to swallow (facts). Didn’t mean to downplay the merit of your contribution by using the word “claims” - you’re legit. I’m very thankful for what you share!

Thanks for dropping by and welcome! Thank you for the links, as well! I’ve got more reading to do! I’ll probably add another post after I dive into those threads, to ask questions if there are any holes in my understanding. By all means, feel free to send links on the bolt/carrier front as well! I do my best to search before posting, but forum searches aren’t my strong suit. I can handle a web search, but for some reason in my past I have searched what I would consider exhaust-ably numerous terms before posting, only to have the first reply to my new thread be the link to a page that never came up in my searching. I’m forever sorry to any forum that had “yet another” post that has been beaten to death 100x before... 🤦‍♂️

Thanks for the warm welcomes, everyone! A couple of updates in that thread - going with 16" rifle gas, after some study I might be able to cut to 15" on RLGS, but 14.5" is TOO SHORT. I'll check back here occasionally to give updates for anyone who is interested. Current discussion in my thread is about to revolve around BCG - low mass vs. full mass - and buffer systems. Check it out if you're interested. Got a lot of good info from some very knowledgeable and experienced people here, as well as links to some important topics (which I believe are already pinned/sticky-ed).

So on that note, I'm going to table the gas port distance / gas tube length discussion. I've been schooled by some of the best here, and I've been pouring over barrel schematics to reference the claims brought up here. Absolutely not will rifle length fit on a 14.5" - not even DPMS pattern. But I'm starting to think that a 15" barrel with a <1" gas block length and typical .7" muzzle thread length MIGHT be able to fit a rifle gas system. (Maybe Armalite gas would still be too long, perhaps DPMS would just barely squeeze in there.) So my amended plan is as follows: I'm gonna grab a 16" rifle gas barrel - probably try X-Caliber, heard some good things about the quality and like the customization/price ratio. This is my first build, not trying to grab the best barrel money can buy, but I'm interested in SOME level of quality. I'll report back on my experience with the brand. This opens me up to a ready-to-build (without SBR stamp or pin/weld brake) barrel length that I can use while I save $$$ for my suppressor/QD brake. Then I can chop to whatever length will fit will my gas block and muzzle device (I'm thinking 15" would be cherry), pin and weld at that time. This lets me play with my new toy and test other parameters before adding another grand to the overall price tag. Baby steps. So its time to look at bolts/carriers, as well as buffer mass and spring. @98Z5V you had mentioned in one of the two threads pinned before that you had your sight jump off target. After increasing buffer weight AND adding mass to the BCG itself, your rifle stayed flatter... Can you give me a bit of info on BOLT mass vs. BUFFER mass? In my objectives #4 (low mass); and #5 (soft shooting recoil impulse), I understand there will be compromises between the two factors. Please elaborate to your hearts content on your take of where in the firing system the mass can/should be added. I'm intrigued by your fix on the rifle you mention in that thread, heavier bolt carrier. I've also heard a tighter spring with a lighter buffer could also be "soft." REMEMBER: I WILL BE USING AN ADJUSTABLE GAS BLOCK, and thus foresee a general tune-ability to most combinations. I've looked into HeavyBuffers and I'm liking what I'm reading, as well as other users' experiences with this high-er mass buffers and respective spring combos. I understand more mass moves away from objective #4, but closer to objective #5... I think personally on this build I'd rather lean toward #5. Not opposed to [up to 10 oz] rifle buffer/tube, but if I can achieve 99% of the result with a [5.4 oz. +] carbine buffer/M4 tube with a collapsible carbine stock, then objective #2 takes the cake. Let's talk bolt carrier mass, followed by buffer mass. Started with the barrel, let's move back from there. To get a guarantee of MOA on any X-Caliber barrel, has to be factory headspaced with a JP bolt (among other brands - but I'm liking what I read about the JP High Pressure deal). Not opposed to grabbing that bolt, but the full BCG from Aero is cheaper than the JP bolt alone. I've read that bolt does well in DPMS branded carriers, I think Fulton Armory is rebranded DPMS. Correction? Could grab: -Aero BCG for around $200 (no "stripped" option, comes with bolt) -JP bolt and Fulton carrier for around $325 (stripped carrier around $100, JP bolt around $225) -JP bolt and JP full mass carrier for around $450 Currently looking at the midrange option, sell me on the JP/JP? I'll be fine with JP/Fulton? Go cheap with the Aero? Please advise. Then we can choose the buffer length/mass/spring to play nicely with the BCG ass'y I decide on. Thanka ya's in advance!

Thank you so much for setting me straight! I must have read and wrote AR10 too many times, leading to my confusion. Hopefully I haven't confused anyone else in this thread, but assuming they read the responses, we should all be able to "clean up" the way we speak about the .308AR platform, being more specific with our verbiage in regard to Armalite vs. DPMS/SR-25 patterns. In all this research I'm jonesing to build my second AR as an Armalite pattern, and compare the differences... For now DPMS is gonna give me quite a few more options, and perhaps problems which I'll have to debug - and thus learn from. When I order my barrel I'll be sure to measure it to ensure I grab the proper gas tube. I'll probably buy parts one at a time and make sure everything fits properly before adding the next piece of the puzzle. Slow and steady, I'll learn and grow in my understanding of the dreaded .308AR lack-of MilSpec. Thank you again for the assist, you're helping more people than just myself by setting this straight, preventing the spread of misinformation/incorrect nomenclature from my future posts. I agree it sucks when everybody has problems and heads here just to be told they bought incompatible parts... I'm hoping I plan and research enough to avoid this conundrum in my first build. -Side note: I love how you speak about Wilson Combat in this post vs. others I've found. Different levels of "BBQ priming?" Tehee.... It's so ironic you tagged this thread here... This was the first thread I read that made me think... DAM. I don't even know WTF is going on here... That thread is what made me open this [slightly] more specific can o' worms. In replying to one of your last posts in this thread, before the last two you made, I was laying in bed thinking, "I hope I can dig up that thread again - the one with all the pics of the gas tube in the upper and how it should align. Maybe @98Z5V will have some insight/agreements with what I read there..." Lo and behold! You were "that guy." Small world. After realizing that you are the one whose posts pushed me into this theoretical exploration, I have even more respect and reverence for the words you've shared with me in this thread. Thank you again for your experience and expertise. I also appreciate how black and white you are considering all this manufacturer-inter-compatibility (or lack thereof), especially with barrels. Definitely gave me the heads up on what to watch out for, you've already helped me to play defense on myself and these "marketing dimensions," if you will. I feel I won't get blindsided, 'cuz I'm definitely putting all the time I need into doing my homework. Again, thank you and @survivalshop, as well as all the others who put in some serious time and energy in that thread, as well as in the one linked therein. Again, thank you all so much for your dedication to this community. 🙏

Exactly what I was thinking, and probably the main source of my confusion, port position vs tube length. Thank you for clarifying this! I know you didn't, and that is totally my mistake. I've been diligently reading all the posts here and in other threads, especially yours. Your responses to my questions are concise and full of information, I read them very carefully to make sure I'm getting things straight. When I was replying to your earlier post, I had to scroll back and forth to re-read those numbers you listed and I must have just grabbed the wrong number while I was composing my response. My apologies, and thank you for your patience. Im learning a lot and humbled by the experience of others here and the guidance I've already received. This is definitely another factor in confusion, and I'm aware of that pattern difference. I think the names used between Armalite and DPMS got me spun. Is it safe to assume that something called AR10 would be Armalite vs. LR308 meaning DPMS? I was calling the DPMS pattern "AR308" before, and I want to refer to each properly. Also for clarification, does the DPMS pattern use AR15 gas tubes on .308 barrels - and Armalite uses AR10 gas tubes on .308 barrels? That's what I'm getting from your last post and I don't want to misinterpret good advice. Just for the record in case it was missed in my first post, I plan on building the DPMS pattern, probably Aero Precision M5E1. Thank you, sir! Always good to know what I'm looking at for reference.

These pics are great! Nice rifles everyone! You two have really helped me visualize the dimensions. So its confirmed by you both, rifle gas is gonna be longer than the barrel hahaha! So I'm gonna go for the 14.5" mid-length, unless... intermediate gas? Anyone got a measurement on this length? Or is the "intermediate" for the .223 only? Just trying to wrap it up with a bow on it. I think pushing that gas length as long as possible is still a desirable goal, no? Especially when considering additional back pressure from the suppressor? Plus, I like seeing your success with having a gas block waaaaaaay out there! You like how that thing feels to shoot, @DNP? Thanks so much again for the help, definitely gets our discussion filed to a point!

😎

Been finding some more of your older posts... you are definitely experienced in the areas I'm looking into at the moment. Hopefully we can keep talking! Thank you!

I've been shooting rifles and shotguns since I was a kid, though not so much lately. Trying to get back into it. I've shot 20ga, 12ga, trap and skeet, .22 (of course), black powder rifles (I think .50cal), various 9mm, Glock .40 and 45ACP pistols, random small caliber lever action rifle (can't even recall what that was), a few bolt action rifles (.243 and .247 if I recall correctly, as well as a few 30/06 sporadically). First time I shot an AR15 I was stoked, and I've shot them a handful of times in the last decade. I like the AR's a lot. But I'm definitely rusty. 50% of wanting to assemble an AR is just cuz I like puzzles and legos and tuning explosive chambers (like turbo charged boxer engines). Its all about balance. I joined up here to find advice on a build I have planned - - and I'm very interested in evaluating the idea of longer gas systems in shorter barrels and finding solutions to tune them. Let me know if you'd like to know any more about me! Already been making some good acquaintances soon to be friends. Oh! Please let me know of any long range (300m) places to practice in the Columbia gorge! Thanks in advance!

HAHA I love this guy. NOTED! I was referencing your post speaking of your experience with "notta lotta length after port = seems to be working." Can I ask, that 16" Fulton with rifle gas, is that .308? If so, can you confirm your rifle length gas with the measurements that @98Z5V posted? I also found this, its got a nice chart: https://truenortharms.com/ar15_default_store_view/gas-tubes-for-ar-10-dpms-308.html - Do different manufacturers use different measurements but still call them all "rifle" or "carbine" without any standardization for these gas-length terms?

@edgecrusher I'll make a quick intro post in the proper section, but to answer your experience question in a nutshell... I've been shooting rifles and shotguns since I was a kid, though not so much lately. Trying to get back into it. I've shot 20ga, 12ga, trap and skeet, .22 (of course), black powder rifles (I think .50cal), various 9mm, Glock .40 and 45ACP pistols, random small caliber lever action rifle (can't even recall what that was), a few bolt action rifles (.243 and .247 if I recall correctly, as well as a few 30/06 sporadically). First time I shot an AR15 I was stoked, and I've shot them a handful of times in the last decade. I like the AR's a lot. But I'm definitely rusty. 50% of wanting to assemble an AR is just cuz I like puzzles and legos and tuning explosive chambers (like turbo charged boxer engines). Its all about balance. Let me know if you want any more info - I'll start a thread in the intro section and we can carry on there, and keep the posts here about the weapon design / theory. Thank you again for everything offered so far! This is getting good already!

Sorry about my massive post, I tried to make it as organized as possible, but it is so long that anyone could have easily read something at the beginning and forgotten it by the time they get to the last sentence - LOL my apologies! I did mention it really quick in my thought process on deciding on 7.62/.308 (objective #1), and again in objective #2 discussing barrel length vs VELOCITY. I don't intend to use this over 500m, and I'll build up a 6.5CM if I want a long range pony in the stable. I read a post yesterday that makes me realize I'm not using the word "accurate" properly, and I should probably use the word "precision." Accuracy is hitting the bullseye (which you can do with a shorty, I agree) and precision is the size of the grouping (longer barrel = more velocity = less windage, drop). We're on the same page here, now? I was using the wrong term, but do understand the correlation between velocity and precision, and that's what I was getting at. Thank you for the correction!