Snow_N_Surf

If I understand what you're asking, it's in my head, lol. If you're asking where the hole is drilled, I'm assuming the hole (aka the base of the wall) is drilled in the same location regardless if it were perpendicular or at an angle. The edge of the hole closest to the buffer is the stopping point (the shortest distance).

You're right, not easier to drill a 6* hole, just necessary to clear the top of the receiver. As a machinist you'd know that finding a right angle tool and bit that would fit in that space may prove impossible. Let me explain it another way. Say you've got a wall and you slide your shoe along the floor until it meets the wall. Regardless if that wall is plum or at an angle sloping away, your foot is going to stop at the same location. In this example the wall represents the pin and the shoe represents the head of the buffer. Unless that shoe rides up the wall, which is possible depending upon tolerances, it's going to stop at the exact same location. We could do the math of worst case scenario, given that some how due to slop the first point of contact on the face of that buffer tube was the very end of the pin. Unfortunately, I'm not good enough with a computer to draw it up and post it here but all you'd have to do is measure how far the pin extends, draw a right angle triangle with a 6* corner and solve the lengths of the other sides. We're talking a few mm at most. Not enough to make a difference. This is pure speculation on everyone's part but one logical reason to drill the hole at an angle has been provided. To backup your position you'd need to provide a different, functional need.

I'm with Survival on this one. The stopping point is the closest point to the buffer head, which is the same regardless if the hole is vertical or off 6 degrees. The difference is at the 6 degree angle the top of the pin would slope outward away from the face of the buffer instead of parallel to it. This is all in theory though, in a perfect world without tolerance variances. Account for the play in the hole & pin, between the buffer & tube, shape and angle of the buffer head, ect and there's a lot of play in the system. Even so, you're probably talking tens or thousandths of an inch in difference, in other words, not enough to make an operational difference. It's most likely drilled at an angle purely due to ease of manufacturing.

I'm only a pain in the ass to you. And I"m ok with that. Talk it up. Most of those very specific questions still haven't been addressed, let alone answered here. You've got a lot to do with that considering you'd rather talk poop then address them.

You know, before I ever posted, I knew you were going to be a problem. I saw the way you treated other people in other threads and I was reluctant to even post because of it. I tried to tread lightly with you, even suggesting discussing thing in PM so the thread could stay on topic and keep this out of the public light so as not to embarrass you, but that wasn't good enough for you. You insisted to air it out in public, so here you go. I hope you're happy. You're an center of uranus, who's looking for a fight because he's got low self esteem and tries to make himself feel better by degrading other people. Well, sorry, I'm not some young dumb kid that can be pushed around and doesn't see who you are and what you're doing. You may be knowledgeable about 308 AR;s but that doesn't give you the right to treat others like poop and you shouldn't get so butt hurt if someone doesn't take your advice. Your manhood is not determined by whether obeys your command or not. You need to do some serious self reflecting, I'd suggest counseling or a good mentor.

As stated in the first post, the receiver set is paid for and on order. I've got some other small parts but the parts that really determine how the rifle functions, the BCG, barrel and buffe system are what I'm trying to finalize. The biggest issue right now is trying to find them but as soon as I lock down which specific parts I want I'll order them, even if it takes several months to get. I've got the money now and want to spend it.

Thank you. I think my first post was pretty specific about the questions I had and you're actually attempting to answer them. I'm not really sure how people got so hung up on criticizing hydraulic buffer systems. I was never interested in them in the first place for the build, just curious why they weren't more common, learn more about them, and get other perspectives. The captured spring systems, yes, but nothing else. The Armalite setup is the most reliable over the broadest range, if you go another direction there are going to be sacrifices. I get it, it makes sense, I believe it. If I choose to try something else, I now know the risks and I appreciate the advice. That was my main question about going to a lighter BCG, if you have to add weight to the buffer it kind of defeats the purpose. Do you have any idea what weight buffer would be needed, say with the longer Armalite style buffer tube?

I don't doubt experience, but no, this forum is not any different then any other on the internet. It's impossible to escape that. I'd say about 90-95% of what you read online is false, or misleading at best. Seeing what's recommended in forums and even in the media in industries I'm a knowledgeable professional in taught me that much, 20 years ago. That's the problem with trying to get advice online, you have to wade through a lot of crap to get to the truth. I'll take the advice from the experts & the manufacturers long before something I read online. That's not to say there isn't a lot of good information online and likely this site included, it's just you have to be able to identify the bullpoopy and that's not always easy to do.

Agreed. And this conversation has nothing to do with the topic. If you'd like to discuss it we can in PM or by other means as my PM suggested.

Alright. I messaged you privately but if you want to hash it out right here I will. Just confirm that what I say will remain public and you will not make sure to ban me because of it.

As if you are the God knowing all of the internet. Sorry, this is the bathroom wall of society, I take everything I read or see with a grain of salt. You have to prove yourself to me just like anybody on youtube. I don't easily recommend any forum, channel, ect. You have to prove to me that you know enough that I'm willing to recommend you. This forum and it's members are not the end all authority, nor am I.

So here's where I'm coming from. When you said that the Armalite kit IS the buffer solution, hands down, game over...I agreed. You sold me, I got it, I believe you, I don't doubt you. And from there, I moved on to trying to better understand the application that is the 308-AR. I'm new to building guns. Actually started out wanting to buy a 1911 and ended up building an AR, because I couldn't find the 1911 that I wanted and ended up building an AR, lol. I want to learn, so don't mistake my questioning your advice with not understanding and taking it. If I have further questions though, I'm not the type of person to hold back.

Thank you, That makes a lot of sense. I've been turning to the Youtube channel: SmallArmsSolutions as a resource and that adds a perspective to the issue concerning hydraulic buffers that he didn't mention. As far as the TI BCG, my understanding was you may need to add weight to the buffer to compensate for it. I may be remembering this incorrectly, being that I did the research before building my AR-15. And that was my concern, no point in spending a bunch of money to lighten the BCG if you have to add some of that weight back to the buffer in compensation. That's one of the main reasons why I'm looking into other buffers.

This is interesting: https://nemoarms.com/product/large-frame-recoil-reduction-bolt-carrier-group-and-buffer-kit/

I feel like you're baiting me. I'm not sure what you want me to say. It' pretty simple. There are various spring rates and buffer weights depending upon application. The ammo you use, barrel, length and style, gas system, bolt carrier group and weight, buffer tube length, silencers, all effect what spring and buffer you need to use. The buffers are pretty simple using a number of steel or tungsten weights inside to determine the weight. Their properties of the buffer work sort of like a dead blow hammer, but I'd still like to know the theory behind why the engineers thought that was necessary or the best solution. I'm guessing that the physics suggest that you need x amount of mass to slow down the energy created by the explosion in front of the BCG, but I also think this could be accomplished by using a shock absorber (for example) instead of a dead weight. Which brings me back to my original question about what the suggested buffer weight difference is between using a standard or titanium BCG?

The std buffer has it's merits, it's a cheap, simple and reliable system, but that's not to say it's the best possible solution to the problem. Other solutions may be more expensive and complicated but they may be a better solution depending upon the need or application. That's my abbreviated answer. I want to challenge myself and try something different. I'm learning a hell of a lot more by trying that.

Aaaaaarrrgh. I just spent a bunch of time writing a response and the damn internet at this hotel logged me out. Gotta love technology. Guess it wasn't meant to be. Sorry, tangent, just frustrated.

I understand why there are different recoil systems, I'm just trying to establish the initial starting point (in theory) of what's most likely to work. If you want more power in your vehicle for example. Throw a chip on a stock engine any you're likely to be disappointed (diesel trucks being the exception here. All the systems in the motor work together and if you modify one you may need to modify some others so they work properly and efficiently together. The BCG in the 308 being longer then the 223 it totally makes sense that a longer BT would be ideal to get back to zero. Unfortunately, it looks like the aftermarket has only produced a captured spring buffer system for the standardized AR-15 mil spec, probably because that's where the majority of sales lie. Just like the aforementioned barrel mfgs cheating on their gas system hole locations. Unless there's another captured spring system out there I'm not aware of.

Thanks. I read it over the weekend. I did a bunch more research, but at this point I'm rehashing previously viewed info trying to get to some of the deeper level stuff. What I'd like to know at this point has a lot more to do with the theory of why buffer tubes were used in the first place and the actual physics that are taking place. When building my AR-15, I never liked the idea of a buffer as the solution to the problem. It just feels like unnecessary weight not only added to the rifle but reciprocating parts as well. I mean, I get where you're coming from. I've read several of your responses and I'm on that side of the conversation in a professional capacity often. The Armalite kit is the tried and true solution, especially for the first time builder so of course that's going to be the advice to give to most people. On the other hand, I understand the risk of trying something different and I'm willing to take on that risk. You won't hear me whining because I'm in over my head and things aren't working correctly. The gas tube and barrel port info is great to know going into this though. I even inspected my AR-15 last night just to make sure it was within tolerance. Sounds like it's best to ask the manufacturer what the exact correct gas tube length is and then double check it before and after purchasing. I also plan on inspecting the barrel port diameter before assembly so I have an idea if it's in tolerance or may need to be modified. Good to know where you're starting from. Good to know you guys think highly of Live Free Armory though. I knew nothing about them besides they had the parts I was looking for and they manufacture for some OEM's. I'm actually considering ordering a second receiver set. Possibly build that one up with the same barrel, std BCG and the buffer system you recommend as a test bed, then try playing with modified parts on the second one. If it's a good investment I can sell and at least break even on I just might do it.

Agent Venom - Any cycling issues? I'm contemplating a build with some similarities, namely a TI BCG and the JP or Armaspec SCS. Difference being I'm leaning towards an 18" barrel with a rifle gas system. Trying to figure out what the correct buffer weight and buffer tube length would be for this setup.

So based off this info I would assume: The .223 carbine length 6-15/16” (inside depth) is what manufacturers list as 7" (overall length) buffer tubes .308 carbine length 7-5/8” (inside depth) is what mfg's list as 7.75" BT's I've yet to come across a "rifle length" buffer tube besides Armalite. Can someone direct me to other manufacturers that make those? Are there adjustable styles or are they strictly for fixed stocks? Secondly, due to the industries I've worked in I know a thing or two about coil springs so maybe someone can explain this to me. Giving the overall length or number of wraps of a coil spring doesn't mean jack. The only good that does is when comparing two identical springs from the same manufacturer of different lengths. It doesn't take into account spring rates, thickness, materials, progressiveness, manufacturing processes, ect. Even two identical springs by the numbers can perform completely differently in the field depending upon their quality, break-in, ect. Looking at spring rates can be deceiving as well. A cheap spring with a lower spring rate may perform much stiffer then a high quality spring with a higher spring rate. A low quality spring may also quickly break down and lose it's specified spring rate. The buffer information is a good starting point but it doesn't take into account BCG weights, barrel and gas tube lengths and other mitigating factors. Based off this info the standard buffer for the 308 platform is a H3 @ 5.4 oz. Of course, this needs to be paired to the correct spring.

I'll clarify. This is my understanding to date, correct me if I'm wrong. When Armalite created the AR-10 they introduced the 308 AR-10 specific 7.75" buffer tube and application specific buffer and spring assembly designed to work in this (longer) buffer tube. This is the kit that was suggested above. When the DPMS style LR-308's came out, manufacturers commonly used the old AR-15 mil-spec (carbine) length 7" buffer tubes. I'm still not sure what the correct combo of buffer/spring is for this setup on a 308, but I imagine it varies depending upon barrel length, gas, ect, just like on AR-15's. The whole carbine designation still confuses me. I had thought the shorter, round pistol buffer tubes were what they called carbine. The 308 BCG being longer then an AR-15 BCG, it makes sense that the longer buffer tube would be ideal and/or Armalite felt was necessary and therefor designed the platform this way. It also makes sense that there would be less recoil felt the greater the distance the BCG has to travel. The trade-off being slightly more weight with a longer tube but this should be minimal. Just spitballing here, but this makes me think the longer Armalite BT with the TI bolt carrier would be the ideal way to go. If I understand it correctly, the JP and Armaspec captured buffers are designed around the shorter (common) 7" BT's and when used in the longer Armalite style, a spacer is needed and provided. Decreasing the BCG travel kind of defeats some of the potential benefits though. The ideal setup would be a long travel captured spring buffer. There was also a second generation of DPMS (DPMS II), but it's been largely abandoned and most manufactures have adopted the DPMS I standard, with a few sticking to the Armalite standard. I believe the receiver set I ordered is DPMS I, and the barrel needs to have the DPMS designation. There's is also a low 2.0" or high 2.06" front receiver profile and I need to confirm which one this upper is in order to get the correct handguard. Not sure if that's a difference between DPMS I & II or just one more complication to make life interesting, lol. Maybe an adjustable gas block is unnecessary, but the extra $20-30 it costs on a $2,000 gun seems like cheap insurance to me. Especially when you're putting legos together and are not guaranteed a satisfactory result straight out of the box.

I would equate this to people using the wrong weight buffer, spring, ect for the length barrel & gas system more then mismatched parts between different manufacturers. Although unlike the AR-15, having different length buffer tubes adds an additional complication. I still haven't figured out what the purpose of the longer 308 specific 7.75" one is? I understand the risk of trying something different and am willing to take that on. It sounds like rifle length gas would be the ideal way to go.

Any downside to this over the mid gas?

Well, the standard is just the mil-spec (AR-15) 7" (outside) right? I guess there could be minor differences in ID length between manufacturers, but I wouldn't expect it to be enough to make a difference.