Lazerus2000

Dont we get paid by the word?? If my posts annoy you so much, why not just put me on your ignore list? PS: here is a link to a very comprehensive steel VS brass ammo comparison. It is for AR15s, and for .223, but some interpretations can be made for the .308 ammo. WARNING: LOTS OF WORDS IN THIS ARTICLE. Lots of pics and graphs too. If details annoy you, just go for a sandwich instead. LAZ 1

NOTE: I AM IN CANADA, and we have access to lots of Chinese gun stuff thst cant get into the US. These NORINCO 7.62 X51 rounds are definitely copper washed on both the steel cases and the steel core bullets. A magnet sticks to both the cases and the bullets. And the copper coating is glaringly obvious on both. AND both the DPMS website and 98Z5V are right to warn against using the NORINCO COPPER WASHED ammo in the LR308 rifles. I grabbed 20 rds of this stuff off of a buddy who has thousands of rounds. He shoots it in one of the Chinese M14 rifles I built for him. In his M14, it has been very reliable and shoots into about 2MOA. BUT, Another guy I talked to at the range today swore that this ammo was horrible in his Chinese M14, with very poor accuracy, and some split case necks. Obviously, wth this ammo, YPMMV. I tried some of the copper washed NORC ammo in my NEW LR308B. I have only 5 shot mags, and the first five rounds went off nicely, shooting into about 3 " . Cleaned the chamber and bore. Shot another five rds. Same. Cleaned the bore and chamber, shot only three more rds, with the 4th rd being a failure to fully chamber. Bolt was about half inch back on live rd. Had to POGO the butt stock to get the live rd out. Put that FTF off to the side. Cleaned chamber and bore again, loaded another rd, went bang, but another failure to chamber fully. GAVE UP ON FURTHER TESTING WITH THIS AMMO. Cleaned the chamber and bore, shot five rds of 168 gr NOSLER HPBT MATCH. 1.2" group with three in same hole, and with the first and last rds into a different hole at different POI. CURSED THE STUPID CANADIAN LEGAL 5 RD MAGS. I knew that the first and last rds in an M14 magazine can often shoot to a different POI than the rest of the mag, but was surprised to find that the LR308 seems to do this too. On a slightly different note, first time at the range I shot five into .82", using a PMAG. This time I only managed 1.2" using the DPMS metal mag. Will test further with different mags and shooting all five from middle of mag. PPS: I agree that in my personal LR308B, metal cased ammo is not a viable choice. Lesson learned from first hand experience.

I think Canada imported way more of the AI built ten rifles than any one else. These complete rifles would be stripped for donor uppers and original AR10 LPKS. Shipping a lower receiver into the US from Canada mught be more trouble than it would be worth. For the first few years, BATF required documentation just to export our Blackfesther alloy stocks to the US ... which was ridiculous. Gun laws on both countries make little sense, and trying to go back and forth between the two is often ... complicated. So short answer, these receivers would be made specifically to meet CANADIAN legal requirements, and probably would not be viable for a US marketable item. Besides, the US already has MANY GOOD AR10 receiver sources in the US. We Canucks have none.

As a teenager, I flunked out of engineering. Couldn't hack the calculus, and studying took me away from my other main priorities ...partying, girls, and drinking beer But later on in life I gave up on the partying and the beer, and the girls gave up on me. I pulled it together enough to design a complete line of backpacking equipment. So even though I never got the paper, I exhibited "engineer like traits". And along the way, I learned two of the most important engineering principles; K.I.S.S. and "Parts left out cost nothing and rarely break". PS: I definitely have spent too much time writing technical docs for the IT department of a govt agency. Verbosity has become an ingrained habit. I will try to improve the fog factor of my posts.

WARNING CANUCKISTANI SPECIFIC CONTENT: In Canada, the AR15 and all variants are legally classified BY ORDER IN COUNCIL (aka NAMES ON A LIST ) as RESTRICTED rifles, which require registration just like a pistol. The GENUINE MIL SPEC ORIGINALAR 10 rifles were almost all FULL AUTO, and they fit into the FULL AUTO or CONVERTED AUTO ( grandfathered collector only) legal status. The classification of all AR15 based semi auto only modern AR10 HYBRIDS is currently same as AR15s ...aka varients thereof. However, recent legal rulings up here in Canuckistan regarding those very rare GENUINE ORIGINAL AR 10 RIFLES, that have SEMI auto only receivers, indicates that SEMI AUTO ONLY ORIGINAL AR 10 rifles may be legally classified as ordinary NOT REGISTERED OR RESTRICTED long arms. Because the AR10 was not specifically named in the original order in council, and because it has been successfully argued in court that the AR 15 is a variant of the AR10, not the other wsy around, precedent exists to manufacture and sell in Canada ORIGINAL PATTERN SEMI AUTO ONLY AR 10 type rifles. Alberta Tactical has paved the way with their confirmed Canadian legal AR10 LIKE "Modern Hunter". The Modern Hunter varies somewhat from the original AR 1O design to make it street legal. Very few AR15 parts can be used, to make sure it is not ckasssified as an AR15 VARIANT. SO, this MAY pave the way for the creation of other new CANADIAN LEGAL SEMI AUTO only lower receivers that would fit the many SUDANES and PORTUGUESE AR10 rifles that are basically legal wall hangers, or buried in the back yard. I consult for a Canadian gun parts manufacturer called.M14.CA. We make mostly CNC alloy add ons for the M14 type rifles. One example of our product is the BLACKFEATHER stock, which was designed to blend AR style ergonomics and fast handling, with the reliable old school/steel M14 ( which in semi auto only models is still street legal up here). We also make alloy replacement upper and lowers for the Norinco T97 BULLPUP ... which again are NOT restricted here. We certainly have the proven expertise to manufacture semi auto only replacement AR 10 lowers, and I suggested this idea to the owner of M14.CA. He was luke warm to the concept, citing very limited market and limited profit margin for such a low production volume item. He also was concerned that the legal status if the semi auto only AR10 might be challenged .... but planning a business strategy around the Canadian gun laws is already like swimming in quicksand ... for just about ANY firearm. Plus there could be LONNGGgg wait till the RCMP get around to validating any new AR10 lower. All good PRACTICAL reasons to not go ahead with such a project But gun people are not always "practical". They some times let their passion ( ?obsession?) Over rule their good sense. So I am working on getting him hooked on the AR 10 family and maybe I can change his mind. So what do you think ... if a Canadian legal semi auto only replacement lower receiver was made for the AI built AR 10 rifles, would it sell.??

Buy the complete DPMS LR308B rifle for $699 from IRUNGUNS. Strip out the LPK. SELL THE REST OF THE PARTS AT A PROFIT or keep them as spares.... or perhaps the start for your NEXT build? That way, you end up with a FREE LPK, AND probably enough extra to buy an upgraded trigger. I am seriously considering buying another complete DPMS 16" barreled rifle for $750 just to have a spare lightweight upper. I would sell off the lower complete ( I prefer the solid A2 rifle length buffer tubes ) OR I might keep the stripped out LPK parts ... but only the AR10 specific bits. The AR15 trigger parts would not be necessary as I would get an upgraded aftermarket trigger.

My advice is, IF you can save money by buying a complete finished rifle for less than a parts kit, THEN go for it. Just buy the finished rifle and start shooting it TODAY!! IF you want something different than the factory offering, rather than spend hours/days/weeks/months? building one from scratch, you may be better off in the short run AND in the long run by starting with a factory built rifle, and modifying from this solid foundation. BUT, IF you truly enjoy this type of of "hands on therapy", and if you have the skills, patience, and self discipline to wait days/weeks/months? till you can actually use your new obsession, then you do not need any other reason than that to build from parts. But realistically, from a practical "dollars and cents" perspective, if you consider your time worth more than a few dollars an hour, you are usually not saving any $$$. So you better enjoy the job A LOT!! PS: I apologise if my attempt to list my experience and establish my credibility is seen as "puffing". I had no intention to start a pissing contest. Feel free to kick the new guy till he catches on to the unwritten rules of etiquette. LAZ 1 PPS: is loquacious a compliment?? If so, thank you.

OOPS!!! All this talk of steel cased 7.62 ammo got me thinking.I just checked my unopened package of ammo with a magnet and the magnet does stick. Looks like I just bought some steel cased ammo. My last case of CHINESE 7.62 BALL was definitely brass cased, boxer primed ...supposedly for a Hong Kong police contract and I assumed these were the same. As penance for making a bad assumption, I will try a few rounds in my DPMS .and report back. That way we will.have first hand information on using steel cases in a DPMS rather than theories. HOWEVER, as pointed out, chamber dimensions can vary. Just because it works in my rifle doesn't mean it will work in yours. So unless you can afford to take the risk, and possibly void your warranty, stick with what DPMS tells you. PS: The DPMS website mentions problems with laquer coated cases and uncoated steel cases. The ammo I just bought is COPPER washed. A range test tomorrow is on my agenda.

Thanks for the heads up on the tight DPMS chambers. I said I had zero experience shooting steel cased 7.62x51 ammo and I have no intention of starting now with my new DPMS. In a few of my M305 rifles, I shot up a case of CHINESE made 7.62 BALL machine gun ammo that was still linked in five round chains. It worked well in the M305s, but varied up to .010" in OAL, so unless you sorted by length, accuracy was erratic. As for my experience with the modern AR15/AR10 hybrids, to date I have owned (4) of the DPMS built rifles. All were very accurate with a wide range of ammo. I had one R25 that shot five out of eight factory loads MOA or better ... but the three that didn't shoot great were all around 150 gr. This surprised me. None of my R25 rifles had too tight chambers, and exhibited no overpressure or overgassing symptoms with any ammo I tried. But these had the rifle length gas tubes. Judging from my fired brass, my new LR308B has a larger chamber than my RUGER American bolt rifle. I have not measured it yet, but it is obvious to the eye that the brass from the Ruger shows zero pressure symptoms, while the brass from the DPMS shows bolt face marks on the headstamp and cratered primers ( but not flattened). I suspect the shorter carbine length gas system is passing too much gas ... but long headspace or oversized firing pin hole might also be an issue. I will check head space length with gages and we will know for sure. Thanks again for the heads up LAZ 1

I used to be a PROFESSIONAL gunsmiter .. as in other people paid me $$ to work on their guns. With a license and everything. Did it for over a decade, till the thrill was gone. I have built dozens of AR 15s from piles of parts and have completely disassembled DOZENS of surplus ORIGINAL MILSPEC AR 10 rifles and reassembled them for resale. Same goes for the M14 type rifles ... only make that HUNDREDS instead of dozens. I still occasionally teach seminars on do it yourself M14 gunsmiting, and I am BIG supporter of DIY gunsmiting ... for others, not necessarily for myself. I am now officially retired, and while I do a few jobs now and then for VERY GOOD friends, and still do consulting work, I now view gunsmiting as a job rather than a joy. At my ripe old age, my remaining time is worth more to me than saving $$$. And if I can buy a complete factory assembled new rifle, with warranty, for less than the price of the parts, then I will. BTDT enough times that it just ain't as much fun as it once was. But for those of you who still view gunsmiting as a joy rather than a job, I say good on ya. And I will be glad to offer free advice. YPMMV LAZ 1

I have shot lots of the Norinco brass cased ammo in my M14 / M305 type rifles. It is reliable and fairly accurate in the M305 types. I have no personal experience with steel cased 7.62 X 51 ammo so I have no credible opinion about this. I would go with what DPMS says. The Norinco M305 M14 clones, while usually marked as .308 Win on their receivers, are notorious for having excessive headspace ( 7.62 NATO PLUS ) right out of the box on many of their new rifles. Using any ammo that actually meets 7.62 NATO mil spec standards ( marked with cross in a circle as part of the headstamp), with the thicker / tougher brass, is advised for the Norincos. However, just because the ammo box is marked 7.62x51 does not mean true mil spec. Any rifle, especially a semi auto rifle, is only as reliable as the ammo you feed it. That beinng said, I just bought 125 rds of Norinco ball (on sale at my LGS). I have shot thus ammo out of my LR308, and it goes bang nicely, but in my rifle only gives 3 MOA. It usually does a bit better in the M3O5s.

My three Remington R25 rifles shot EVERYTHING I tried. Factory ammo only, ancient history/decades old 110 gr varmint loads, 125 gr TAP, Federal Blue Box 150 gr SP hunting ammo, three brands of 168 Gr HPBT MATCH, Various 7.62 NATO ( including Chinese brass cased Ball), ancient history/ decades old 200 gr Winchester Silvertip All of my R25s Fed and functioned with them all, and most of this ammo shot MOA or better. In my new LR308B, which has an 18" barrel and a short gas tube, there is definitely an issue with NOSLER 168 HPBT MATCH, which is loaded HOT ...100 FPS MORE than FED GMM. The Nosler brass showed signs of pressure ... flattened primers and distinct bolt face imprints. No signs of pressure with the Nosler ammo shot in a bolt rifle, so I am assuming the powder used is too slow with too much residual port pressure for the shorter gas tube. Other AR 10 rifles with longer gas tubes may be just fine, or look into an adjustable gas plug. With .308 Win commercial ammo can vary tremendously in bullet weights and powder speeds. Generally, while CHAMBER PRESSURE stays below SAMMI specs, residual port pressure may vary considerably. With some factory .308 Win loads, and some slower powders, the residual gas pressure at the port may be way too high. This is especially true for AR10 rifles with the shorter gas tubes. In general, I consider powder speed and pressure at the port much more critical than bullet weight. YPMMV LAZ 1

I bought a COMPLETE LR308B rifle for $699 from IRUNGUNS. Brand new, No assembly required, shot it last week and it does MOA five shots at 100. At that price I could not build it.

Yep..Vancouver Island ... aka "FANTASY ISLAND".

I also have some experience with the AR15 platform. I have owned a few and built about four dozen or so from various piles of parts. Like most serious AR15 shooters, I have been less than thrilled with the power available in 5.56/.223 ammunition. Although, I once spent a pleasant weekend shooting Sitka deer ( very small critters about the size if a Standard bred POODLE.) Legal limit was 10 and I took 5 of them with .223 soft point hunting ammo, all of them INSTANT ONE SHOT KILLS. However, I carefully chose my shots, and took only standing deer at 20 - 80 paces. If a deer was moving, I did NOT take the shot. The .223 has a place in my arsenal, but I am well aware of the inherent limitations of light fast bullets. For that reason I played around with the original .300 Whisper and with 6.8 SPC. Both of these cartridges are considerable improvements in power and performanc in an AR15 platform, but after experimenting with them, and realising that both were more expensive than .308 ammo ... and so much harder to source up here in Canada ... I went back to 7.62 Nato /.308 Win. The AR10 in.308 can be loaded with light 125/130gr bullets that go super fast, or downloaded to duplicate .300W/7.62×39 external ballistics. And it can also be loaded HEAVY, with 200 gr soft point, fir just about any big game in North America. And it can be loaded for long range, with 155/168/175 gr ultra high BC bullets. This UNSURPASSED VERSATILITY strongly biases me to shoot .308 over all other AR offerings. However, I still have an AR15 M4gry for faster/closer target rich environment tactical scenarios. With a wide selection of ammo from super light/ superfast varmint to 75 gr SuperPerfrmance for bigger varmints and you have a lighter weight platform, again with outstanding versatility .Add in a .22 LR conversion for low cost practice, small game and low noise, and you get even more versatility ... but constrained by the limitations of the lighter/smaller bullets. Both have their place.

Sorry, all my ORIGINAL AR 10 rifles are long gone. However, last month I bumped into an old shooting buddy at a local gun store who I hadn't seen 30 years. He got a few of the TENS off of me back in the day. The AR10 came up in conversation and he still has a few of them. I offered to buy back one and he took my phone number but probably zero chance of him selling me one. Way back in the 1980s, I competed in local three gun matches with a few of those ORIGINAL AR10s. I built one up just for matches that would be one of the first M4 type AR10 CARBINES. I chopped the barrel to 18.5", added an effective comp, milled the front of the carrying handle into a Weaver base, mounted a RED DOT almost co-witness with the iron sights, and replaced the original handguards with AR 15 plastic, ground the lower to take an AR15 pistol grip, removed the beat up butt stock and added on just a skeleton butt plate. That rifle was unbeatable at our local matches. Stoner was ahead of his time with the AR10, and I was ahead of my time with my AR10 M4GRY. But life runs in circles, and now AR10 M4gry shorties are all over. I am waiting for the bugs to shake loose on the DPMS GEN2 lightweight models, and I may end up with one if those as well. 40 years of "progress?" and still an AR10 shorty is one of the best "PRACTICAL" rifles ever made. Although, I do miss the larger diameter buffer tube, buffer, spring and bolt of the ORIGINAL AR10s. The felt recoil on these was different than with the modernised AR15/AR10 HYBRIDS, with their smaller parts. Thise old ORIGINAL TENS felt like a Browning long recoil Auto five shotgun, with the "shuck ...shuck" of all that reciprocating mass pulling the rifle down for faster rapid fire. In my personal full auto firing tests, comparing the ORIGINAL AR10 to the FN FAL, and the M14, the TEN was the clear winner. I could consistently keep short bursts on an IPSC SIL target at 25 yds standing and 100 yds prone with the TEN. While it was possible to do the same with an FN and a 14, I was never as consistent with those. Larry Z

Decades ago I owned, shot, customised, and enjoyed about three dozen of the GENUINE ORIGINAL AR 10 Military issue rifles. These were the Dutch /AI built Sudanese and Portuguese model rifles that ended up as surplus and then were imported into Canada. They were full auto capable, but on import were modified to shoot semi auto only. As a licensed gunsmith, I COMPLETELY stripped down several of these rifles in rough condition, and cleaned them up for resale. I even made a few full auto versions for personal use. Back in the day, these original AR 10s were my favorite "Battle" rifle. But as the parts dried up, and the always rare AR 10 became an orphan, more for collectors than for practical shooters, I turned my attention to the M14 type rifles. But the AR 10 was ( and still is) my favorite all around most versatile practical rifle design. I spent several years assisting in the design of the M14.CA aluminum BLACKFEATHER stock, which copies much of the outstanding ergonomics, fast handling, and balance of the AR 10 on to the M14 platform. But after working for too many years on too many M14 rifles, I finally have come back to the modernised AR 10 ... which I view as AR15/AR10 HYBRIDS, rather than as GENUINE AR 10s. My experience with three of the DPMS built Remington R25 rifles was very positive. Once I replaced the too light hammer springs, improved the triggers, and swapped over to Pmags, all three were TOTALLY RELIABLE and MOA or better shooters. My most recent AR10/AR15 hybrid is a DPMS LR308B, which I bought on sale for $699 US $. The fit and finish is outstanding, and out of the box the trigger was acceptable. I did a better trigger job, added an M14.CA skeletonised butt, scoped it, and first time out with factory ammo it shot 100 yd 5 shot MOA. Not bad for a $699 rifle. Looking forward to enjoying this AR 10 wannabee almost as much as I did those GENUINE AR10s way back in the day. Larry Z I had