Dewey Mack

Just spit balling...what's the weight difference in those BCGs? Possible gas key leakage or sloppy fit to gas tube? Pin gauge the gas key? Do the gas rings hold the weight of the BCG when standing on the bolt face? Any noticeable manufacturing flaws? I never owned BCA anything before and hear mixed reviews. FWIW, my personal opinion is the orange spring is overkill/too stout for these rifles from my own testing, and it will usually require a larger gas port. But if it runs, run it.

Yeah, that's what I normally do as well, ladders with complete builds. How do you like the WC 338fed? I still have 8 boxes of ammo from an old elk rifle build (no longer in commission). What length barrel you like for that? That may be my next build.... Also, I have used a brake from https://jcb-solutions.com/ Trident Muzzle Brakes. They are made locally, affordable, and also sell on eBay or through website. One man operation but so far I'm satisfied. SD Tactical sells affordable titanium adapters I'm trying out as well... Thanks for the $0.02!

It is 11.25 twist. I know it was the muzzle device, but I'm weighing the $$$ decision of buying multiple muzzle devices vs buying a better barrel that doesn't care if it has a muzzle device on it. I intended to use the barrel suppressed, but it wasn't grouping with my Enticer-TI either (mounted on the Rearden DPB). Have you seen accuracy change with specific brand suppressor adapters? I've used Rearden Atlas adapters and brakes on my small-frame platforms with no noticeable shift in accuracy. Do you have a barrel brand that typically works well with any muzzle device that you lean towards? For those of you that handload, when you find a nice node without any MD installed, have you seen that node completely shift out of the sweet spot after installing a MD? This close to hunting season, I'm tempted to run my test ladders without any device, find the sweet spots, then have my father test them in his setup.

A couple years ago, I built 2x matching LR-308s; one for myself and one for my father as a family/legacy/hand-me-down whitetail hunting rifle pair. I had gone through 4 different Faxon barrels (Stainless Match and 4150) that wouldn't group at all (5-10 MOA), and then I switched to the Wilson Combat 18" Tactical Hunter. These barrels were starting to group, so I pressed on; I'm not going to discuss the incorrect gas tube length/gas port distance on these barrels. I was able to get the barrels cycling fine for me... However, I've been chasing my tail the last couple of years trying to make a hunting handload for my father and myself that will consistently group. POIs would sometimes shift significantly mid-string, possibly pointing towards heat issues. However, I do most of my testing with a barrel chamber cooler. Grouping was never acceptable to my standards (3-shot consistent 1 MOA including cold bore). At first I thought it was my scope, so I sent it back to Primary Arms, who sent it back to me after testing stating the scope was fine. I have spent countless hours reloading and purchasing nearly every off-the-shelf 308 ammo for testing with zero consistent results. I even tried different bolts (cheap 308 bolt, HP Toolcraft, and RCA) with no change in results. Yes, I checked headspace before installing the barrels. I even re-installed them to confirm barrel nut torque and trued the uppers. When I zeroed my scope for 168 grain ammo and then switch to 150 grain, my POI shifted 4.5 inches down and slightly right; when I switched to my 125 grain handloads, the POI is 8 inches down! I've never seen a shift this drastic with various bullet weights. (I do all my test without a suppressor). I know how to shoot with my stable setup, The Rock front rest and Protektor 13B rear bag; nothing on the handguard to catch the front bag. I shot 0.22moa 3-shot (100yd) with my handloads tuned for my father's cheap T/C Venture 223 yesterday, which is fairly normal. Then it hit me: I had a Rearden Atlas DPB installed by East Valley Tactical almost immediately after building the rifle to use with my suppressor. I figured maybe the harmonics were off or it was installed too tightly. So I removed the DPB and retested with a bare muzzle. The results were....shocking to say the least. My 168 grain and 125 grain handloads were grouping sub-MOA, the factory/bulk 150 grain ammo not too shabby, and ALL POIs were 1-2 inches at 1:30. The barrel didn't care what bullet was going downrange. So then I installed a KVP Linear Comp at exactly 25 ft-lbs torque with a proper crush washer, as this was the setup my father is using. The 168 Black AMAX group opened up again and shifted further away, while the 150 grain shifted down. Not what I wanted to see, and I didn't waste any other ammo testing with the KVP comp. So I'm at a crossroads after this 2-year journey. Do I test more with just a thread protector to see if that affects the groups and call it a day, sacrificing the benefit of having a threaded barrel? Or do I contact WC for a barrel replacement since I can't use the threads on these barrels with consistent results (as if WC cares about that with their 1.5moa tolerance)? I'm not taking it hunting with bare threads. Or do I just go to a different brand? My 22" Ballistic Advantage heavy fluted 6.5CM "blem" just grouped 5-8 shot sub-MOA groups last week with 130 hunting and 142 match factory ammo. Easy double-tap 700yd plate before first ring. I have to try to mess up with that rifle--it stacks all ammo I feed it so far; it's absolutely fantastic. Thoughts? Anyone else using this barrel with good results? Black Friday deals are coming up as well..... EDIT: I didn't touch the scope during any of this testing. I wanted actual, measurable results.

How did it do in the match? Where was it? (I'd like to spectate the next one)

Also, you didn't say what you were hunting or the ranges you're shooting. I have a heavy fluted aero 22"CM build that I'd use hunting. It's 13#. I could easily walk/stalk with it in the Midwest with cross-body sling setup, but I won't take it to 8000' where I elk hunt. Personal preference.

I did 2 builds with the 18" WC tactical hunter barrels in 308. But unless they changed their manufacturing, the Wilson Combat "rifle length" gas port is between the AR-15 and Armalite rifle length. I use the longer one, but it's best to get a custom tube made. Also, I've had a heck of a time finding a bullet this 11.25 twist will shoot accurately (settled on 125gn) combined with a powder that will completely burn in 18" barrel. I recommend using a barrel as long as you're comfortable carrying if you reload at all. I wouldn't go shorter that 20". All these rifles are "heavy" in most hunting circles, so it doesn't matter much. If I build another, I'll get a custom barrel from x-caliber. Possibly 7mm-08.

I'm still trying to figure out what you think I'm doing wrong here. What am I missing? What bravado? I was stating how you were calling me out for recommending springs outside their designed intent, and then you go do the same thing. That's all. I've used "AR-10" springs that don't work and "AR-15" springs that do, so I don't understand the hate. I only own 1 PCC, 9mm, and I'm using the KVP 308 carbine/PCC spring with it, and it works fine with their 7.5oz buffer. I only have issues with feeding hollow points, but that's more of a small feed cone issue with my Faxon barrel I believe. It eats all RN ammo fine. What am I missing in my spring rate testing that you think I need to add? I'm asking honestly. Providing data isn't bravado, it's simply providing data for data's sake. And I'm very serious about the collaboration.

"By the clearly stated intent of the design of both those springs, directly from that spring manufacturer. " You mean like your blanket statement that "ALL PCCs, regardless of pistol caliber, should be running the EA1095 or the Sprinco Red."? Neither of those 2 springs are specifically designed ONLY for PCCs, so you just contradicted yourself. I'm simply measuring as many springs as I get my hands on to the same spot (as close to multiple buffer configs) as I can....to the best of my ability. Every spring has a spring rate, and buffer springs are designed to cycle many times. It is not a mistake to compare 2 different buffer springs because that's the point of this whole project. The difference in ejection pattern verifies the spring rate I had recorded, so it's a sanity check to minimize errors. That's like saying it's a "gross misunderstanding" to put a chevy 400 crankshaft in a 350; are 383 strokers blasphemy? No one else is doing this, and the industry sucks at marketing. Case in point, just look at the AR10 carbine and AR10 rifle springs tested. They're all "designed with stated intent", and yet their spring rates are all over the place. That's why some guys just give up, drill larger gas ports, and slap an Orange Sprinco in there. Will it work? probably. Is it ideal? Nope. The intent of this project was to help builders tune their rifles without wasting money. Or try to figure out why their pre-built brand-X isn't cycling correctly. Just because a spring wasn't designed for that application, doesn't mean it shouldn't be used. That's why Sprinco color codes all their springs, so you can use them in whatever application it's needed in. They have recommendations for what they were designed for, but that doesn't mean it's the ONLY situation to use them in (like the Red or EA1095). Do all suppressors give the exact same backpressure so that only 1 single spring can be used? Or 1 single buffer? We can easily determine a buffer's size, but not a spring's rate. I don't plan on patterning the LAR-8 system in my test. I'm sure some extrapolating could be used from my data. I'm also not forcing anyone to use my data, nor am I trying to steer anyone into using the wrong spring. I'm providing concrete data that's hidden from the average builder; Blowback9's website inspired me. How about a collaboration? You provide me the equation you use for gas port sizing, and I'll try to make a website or an online calculator to quickly provide results? It could also have spring and buffer recommendations? You have more knowledge than me on tuning AR10s, as I've only made 3 myself (1 carbine, 1 A5, 1 rifle buffer systems), so I'll need your input for the recommendations. How about it??

Glad it's working for you! That doesn't surprise me with the Tubbs, as it tests weaker spring rate than EA1095 for me. I tried AAC, Hornady, and Federal match in my Aero 22" 6.5cm, but it definitely liked Defender Ammunition the best for factory loads (until I start reloading for it). I've been really impressed with all of Defender Ammunition's 6.5cm, 308, and 5.56 match ammo. Great price and more consistent.

How is comparing both springs in the same buffer tube a gross misunderstanding? The ejection pattern makes sense if you look at the actual springs rate results. I understand the Orange spring was designed for 7", but even that is overkill if the barrel was ported properly. I measure all the springs using the same procedure, as I'm trying to be as unbiased as possible. What buffer tube you run it in is your choice. I believe I'm running the KAK PCC/AR-10 spring in my 9mm PCC without issue, and around 8oz buffer. I'm gone this week so I can't check right now. Only issue is using the Faxon barrel with shallow feed cone; it won't feed hollow points 🫤. Yes, marketing springs as AR-10 is very misleading. That's why I also try to show the binding compressed length where applicable. I'm in PHX west valley, so if you'd like to spend a day testing in your rifles, send me a DM 👍. I'm doing ladder testing for hunting handloads right now, then I'll jump into "spring rate after XX rounds" testing. BTW, if it was a bot, it wasn't mine 🤣

I tested 4 more rifle springs, 2x AR15 and 2x AR10. AR-Stoner variety. Definitely not bad for the price, but there are differences between their chrome silicone and stainless steel springs. I'd really like to test their new flatwire springs, although I suspect they're re-branded. https://tinyurl.com/DeweySpringData I disagree that ALL AR-10 springs are too long, because "AR-10" labeled springs are labeled such by the manufacturer regardless of "mil-spec", unless you are specifically tying AR-10 to = A5 length buffer tube. If you look closely at my first tab in the spreadsheet, I've calculated the compression distance carefully, and I actually went back and re-tested the springs when I realized there are 1/4" and 1/2" variations on 2.5" buffer head depth. Yes, many springs will bind, but some will not since they are specifically designed with the 7" tube in mind. I have ran multiple springs in the 7" tube without binding, but obviously it isn't my tube-length of choice. Where springs are binding or fully collapsed during tests, I noted that in their respective rows. Do you see something displayed in my spreadsheet that is inaccurate with regards to binding and my testing, or that I should re-assess? My goal is to have tangible evidence of functional AR-10/LR308 buffer spring data since all firearm marketing is nebulous.

Sorry I've been busy and missed your message. I actually have 3 or 4 new AR-Stoner springs from Midway USA to test now, but I think I've actually tested 2 of those KAK springs, because I bought 2 of those kits (K-SPEC Enhanced AR-15 H2 Buffer & Flatwire Spring - 4.7 oz $30 & K-SPEC Enhanced AR-15 H4 Buffer & Flatwire Spring - 7.3 oz $40) from Primary Arms in October during a super sale. I associated them with spring part# 510-2101-001. Is this the same spring you have you think? The KAK spring tests are logged in the spreadsheet, added test on 11/2/24. My Sprinco Red was slightly weaker than my EA1095, but both were a sample size of 1 each. The EA1095 was very close to what Tubbs said was the original spring rate so who knows? Regardless, I do have a tab in the spreadsheet breaking out the springs relevant to 308 so hopefully it's easier to digest. And yes, I now have a metric ton of springs waiting for homes HA! Also, I just tried my new Athlon Rangecraft yesterday at Ben Avery. I compared it to my Magnetospeed v3 and it was extremely close. The Athlon read 0-10fps slower than the Magnetospeed, but I had the Magnetospeed sensitivity turned up slightly as it had trouble picking up some shots. Rangecraft used 50% battery after 3 1/2 hours, left on the entire time. Overall, I'm very impressed with the Athlon and I can finally chrono my hunting rifles with tapered barrels! I'd would've liked the Garmin, but I'd rather put the savings toward an FX-120i scale for my 3D printed OpenTrickler...

https://tinyurl.com/DeweySpringData I finally tested the infamous Tubbs flatwire spring.....and what a disappointment. I also added the AR-Stoner springs. So the only flatwire spring that would be close to the original "bolt open" pressure is the Wilson Combat AR-10 Flatwire spring, but only in the A5 or Rifle length buffer tubes; it's still too strong for the 7" carbine tube. All other flatwire springs are weak-sauce (that I've tested). Tubbs was a complete waste of money, and I can count on one hand the number of springs that provide the correct force in the 7" tube. I'm not planning on buying any other springs to test right now. I may pickup more later this year if I'm asked for another rifle build by family. BTW, I purchased both of AR-Stoner's "heavy" buffers. The SS AR-10 Carbine Heavy buffer weighed 5.08oz (5.3oz advertised), and the AR-10 Rifle Heavy buffer weighed 9.23oz (9.3oz advertised).

https://tinyurl.com/DeweySpringData I ordered 4x brand new Aero Precision springs in December, and they arrived this month. Their new 308 buffer springs are stiffer than the older ones I tested that came with the buffer tube kits. I still recommend the A5 or Rifle length gas setup over carbine to give the most options in springs and buffer weights. I'm building a lower for my 6.5 Creedmoor, and I will use this lower to test a spring to see how it changes over the increments of 100 rounds. Happy upcoming 4 years of freedom, Dewey

I know this is apples to oranges, but I have an 11.5" MLG AR-15, and I've never had a malfunction except self-induced while adjusting the Superlative AGB, suppressed or not. This is the shortest MLG possible off-the-shelf. I BLEED the gas off on this min-dwell Faxon barrel with red-hot sprinco and H2 buffer 😜! So yeah, plenty of gas pressure. I have a MLG 308 with 18" barrel, and it does have slightly but noticeably more kick than RLG 18" even with the AGB, which equates to more muzzle flip. For reference, I don't mind sighting in my 300 win mag Savage with sporter barrel, recoil is relative for everyone. I think the 16" RLG will run fine if you go that route.

Tested Buffer Spring Data 44 springs tested so far!! Yes, I'm nerding-out on this because I hate guessing when the industry keeps us in the dark. I added more springs including Wilson Combat and KAK. I also added another column on the CAR-308 side, as I realized many are using shorty 2.5" buffers with a 1/4" head instead of the 1/2" head like the Kaw Valley Precision buffer I'm using. It actually makes some carbine springs now usable. The majority of the springs designed for AR10 carbine are TOO STRONG except for the really weak Strike Industries AR10 flatwire. [I haven't tested Tubb's flatwire yet, so that might be the unicorn.] Some observations: I don't know how many builders (or buyers) needed to drill out their gas port, but if they are running a standard 7" carbine setup, I can see why. Most of the 308 carbine springs are just too strong for that setup! I highly encourage anyone starting a new build (or fixing someone else's build) to use an A5 length 7-5/8" (or 7.75") tube such as BCM Mk2, Griffin Armament Maritime, VLTOR, Heavy Buffer's, and the like. Get an H3 standard 5.4-5.6oz buffer, and EA1095 spring or something close before testing or drilling gas ports. Look, the Sprinco Orange spring in a 7" carbine tube is 39-45% stronger than the original AR-10 spring! Of course you'll need to drill your gas port for that! ***ammo/suppressor dependent, of course*** ....or use a Rifle length buffer tube setup; even more buffer weight options! Both A5 and Rifle length setups offer a VARIETY of options! I'm sticking with the A5 setup because I have the PRS Lite stock which I really like. I'm also hoping to experiment by making a hybrid/heavier 3.25" buffer on the cheap. If you get a kit such as the Kaw Valley Precision 5.6oz shorty with spring (JoeBobOutfitters), you may want to cut the spring down (while measuring the strength) as a cheaper alternative. Or buy an extra spring and cut that one, they're cheap. I just noticed Slash's Heavy Buffer offers a custom 308 carbine spring that I may also try. I need to re-test the Aero 308 carbine spring as well. Also, holy cow is the KAK AR10 Rifle spring a chonker! So far the thickest and strongest spring in the rifle tube. I honestly can't see any reason for it, and I may start cutting it down to see if I can make a 308 Carbine spring from this beast. When I'm done testing, or think I'm done, I'll start a new post with specific recommendations that hopefully gets pinned. I'm honestly thinking about building another just for a test rig. At least that's what I'd tell my wife. 😆 Cheers, Dewey

I made a second tube to test my Armaspec captured spring system. Added Armaspec AR-10 Gen3 SRS, Aero 308 Carbine, and Aero 308 Rifle. Both Aero springs were new/unused and brown in color from my brother-in-law. The Aero website shows chrome springs, so I'm not sure if they're the same. Many more springs enroute including all 3 standard power Griffen Armament springs, Sprinco Green, KAK flat wire, and a few others.

@dpete It went together effortlessly, and ejects perfectly with a fixed gas block, 5.7oz solid deadblow buffer, and standard M4 spring. Supers, Subs, with or without can, all cycle and LRBHO. Only headache was the gas tube, which took maybe 30 minutes to fix. I notice you're a northern Cheesehead. I grew up there in the NW and going back next month for the national holiday of whitetail season to hunt with my dad, son, cousin, and brother-in-law. 👍I'm taking my LR308, and my son will be using my 16" Grendel.

Don't know, but my guess is that the high pressure at pistol-length might be enough to blow the adjustment screw right out of the gas block. It is pretty small threads in there. They don't define "high pressure" on their website, but if you're running 308 carbine to rifle length, I would think it would work. If that's the block you're getting, call Odin before you purchase.

Edit: I straightened the gas tube and made the bends steeper with a cheap harbor freight tube bender that I liberally lubed! I was very careful. The tube was hitting the barrel nut before bending it and the ends weren't parallel at all. I traced it on a piece of paper before bending to show the difference. I bought the tube directly from Mos-tek when I was visiting their shop, so I notified them of the possible quality control issue. Regardless, the barrel shoots great for being so short. For the BCM upper, I popped it into my house oven at 270F for 15 minutes and the barrel slid right on; light tap from rubber mallet to ensure it was seated. I really like that upper since it doesn't require shim stock. I didn't bother squaring the face as it looked like it was already machined flat. Nice stuff from BCM.

Late update, but the build went fairly well besides the micro gas tube not bent correctly. I call it the Trumpinator 😂. The lower is from SOTA in MN; I was going to do an 80% but I really liked their engraving. It's a nice lower that allows an adjustable bolt benieth the rear takedown pin to remove upper/lower slop. They have 80% AR15 & LR308 lowers as well as great prices. I highly recommend them as an option for either. The bolt and buffer tube were cheap, custom laser engraved from KM Tactical. Both work great. Shoots great with subsonic AAC ammo! I tried the 125gr supers but it was a BLAST cannon, but still accurate at 50yd. With the Enticer Ti on the end, it's even better. I'm using KM Tactical solid 5.7oz buffer, standard carbine spring, and fixed gas block. Perfect ejection 3-4:00and cycling with all ammo, with or without the can! I swapped the old red dot for Romeo 5. It's accurate, and I was also able to hit the 200yd plate sitting cross-legged at the range with subsonics (aiming very high 😄).

This has some good information on it for ejection patterns.... Sprinco USA -- Recoil Solutions

Added photo of my setup. Buffer Spring Tester Mk2 - added pulleys for easier testing and a heel on the end to catch my countertop. The scale is accurate to 0.01# and I have tested it against 2 other scales and weights. I rounded pulls to the nearest 0.25#. I have also reached out to various companies about some of the strange test results. Will update when they reply.

Good to hear! My 15.5" gas tube is about 1/8" too deep on my Wilson Combat barrel because I'm lazy and didn't order a custom tube from WOA. Even the tubes WC sells are too long (f- wilson combat barrels). As long as you control it with the AGB like you did, you should be fine. If you ever want to go to a fixed gas block, you'll probably need to order a custom tube. How's the ejection pattern? If it's between 2:00-4:00 you should probably just run it. I have mine ejecting at 4:30 on weakest ammo but cycling fine, and about 1:30 with suppressor. I use my rifle in 110F in Phoenix to -20F in Wisconsin. Temperature changes ejection pattern too. I'm actually looking at getting the $200 Riflespeed for my setup because I'm about 50/50 with my suppressor use and it's annoying. I even broke the bolt catch [strike industries] the first time I used the suppressor. 🤬 The SA AGB works great but it's less-than-ideal to adjust on the fly.