Fixed carry handles

[Hick]

Hello just got my first ar10 love it it's a bushmaster bar10 20 inch with fixed carry handle just wanting to know if any one has mounted a scope to the handle and if so can you post pics to see set up wanting to put scope on for hunting also thought about getting flat top to use for hunting and putting 18 inch on the fixed handle with no optics  for defence setup 

[Anderson3754]

Hick HI....I don't have any pics to post. I'll just offer my opinion as a LE Firearms Instructor.  By the time you attach the scope to the top of the carrying handle, then using even low mount rings the scope will be very very high this makes the weapon very top heavy, you'll lose your cheek weld to the stock, your head kinda starts bobbing around like a cork in water. To over come this people started raising the comb with all sorts of items foam rubber and duck tape, just to get some sort of a usable check weld to shoot the rifle. Another problem that results from this style of setup, often with a 1 inch scope tube you run out of elevation adjustment for anything past 100yds. If you are able to zero the rifle at lets say 100yds the crosshair will literally be buried into the bottom of the scope tube. This location often on lesser expensive scopes is where optical clarity suffers, your greatest optical clarity is when your looking through the center of the lens.  You end with a distorted sight picture, parallax is also exaggerated and becomes extremely annoying to shooters who are very prudent about dialing out parallax. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it becomes a very awkward and frustrating weapon system to shoot accurately and comfortably.

Work your way around to a flat top upper with a 20'' barrel if your going to shoot a scope. Then a 16 or 18 inch for your defense setup keeping in mind the 16 inch can be a brute  with muzzle climb, ref dwell time from shot to shot. I might get flamed here but I struggle with the concept of a 16inch barrel in 308 and the 18inch  does not handle or point has well has a 20 inch setup.

Buy ammo, alot of it... and shoot your rifle as is with the irons. Shoot drill exercises, in battery, out of battery reloads, left side, ride side barricade etc, etc. You may just like the rifle as it is. Then build your flat top upper with a scope. Do lots of research, ask a lot of question, shoot other rifles that are configured differently than yours. Keep in mind the true sign of a professional is gun handling and proper tactics.  Most people shoot decent, it's the intimate use and understanding of the weapon you choose to operate.      You want your on demand performance to be smooth and accurate.

Hope it helps

 

[Hick]

Thanks for info only reason I thought about scope would be just for hunting deer and coyote  the coyote hunting would be on a tripod think I was thinking about 18 or less barrel for weight reduction but honestly thinking now would not shed alot of weight and would kick hard lol love 20inch and iron sights guess just used to my old ar15 

[98Z5V]

21 minutes ago, Anderson3754 said:

 I might get flamed here but I struggle with the concept of a 16inch barrel in 308 and the 18inch  does not handle or point has well has a 20 inch setup.

 

No reason for a flaming at all, man.  None.  Different things for different people.

The longest barrel that I have on any .308AR is 18.5", and that gun is a dream to shoot.  I've got another 18" gun, a 16" gun, 13.5" gun, and a 12.5" gun - all in .308 Winchester, and all ARs.  None of them are horrible to shoot, in the least, and they all have a different use/purpose.  That 13.5" gun only has a red dot on it, and I can accurately run that thing out to 400 yards.  There's a thread here somewhere on that, specifically. Hell, I've got a Ruger GunSite Scout Rifle, and that thing is pure badassery, right there.  Bolt gun, 16" barrel, mag-fed...   With a comp on the end of the barrel, (and only  red dot) that thing is actually peaceful to shoot. 

The 12.5" only has a red dot on it as well, but this fall, I'll mount a magnified optic on it and take it out to 850 yards, just dialing the scope for that.  Gonna be an interesting test, but it will blow away some of the theories that are out there...  

An accurate gun is always an accurate gun.  The shorter barrel of an accurate gun, compared to the same accurate gun with a longer barrel - well, that accurate shorter barreled gun just needs more drop at distance, due to a slower initial muzzle velocity.  That doesn't mean it any less accurate - you just have to hold or dial more, and that's purely from the muzzle velocity lost due to the shorter barrel. 

Everything else you told him was spot-on.   "Height over Bore" is what gets people...  

Edited September 25, 2020 by 98Z5V

[Anderson3754]

3 minutes ago, Hick said:

Thanks for info only reason I thought about scope would be just for hunting deer and coyote  the coyote hunting would be on a tripod think I was thinking about 18 or less barrel for weight reduction but honestly thinking now would not shed alot of weight and would kick hard lol love 20inch and iron sights guess just used to my old ar15 

I really like the 20 inch barrel setups and Iron sights in the 308 and 16inch setup with irons in 223. My 308 AR's with scopes have 24 inch barrels  Spend your money wisely, there is a wealth of info here, just by reading and asking questions

[98Z5V]

13 minutes ago, Anderson3754 said:

 My 308 AR's with scopes have 24 inch barrels 

That's gotta suck for hunting.  That long of a barrel isn't easy to carry all day, if you're walking for/to game, doesn't clear brush or veg easily, and the swing-weight on a 24" barrel is tremendous.  That's alot of barrel hanging out there in front of you, and moving it from side to side is alot harder than swinging a shorter barrel. 

Edited September 25, 2020 by 98Z5V

[Anderson3754]

10 minutes ago, 98Z5V said:

An accurate gun is always an accurate gun.  The shorter barrel of an accurate gun, compared to the same accurate gun with a longer barrel - well, that accurate shorter barreled gun just needs more drop at distance, due to a slower initial muzzle velocity.  That doesn't mean it any less accurate - you just have to hold or dial more, and that's purely from the muzzle velocity lost due to the shorter barrel. 

Everything else you told him was spot-on.   "Height over Bore" is what gets people...  

Oh yes I agree 100%  If for example your load and setup shoots a  1/2 minute the main reason for the longer barrel is velocity so as to have, less wind deflection at the longer ranges, for easy talking lets say 400yds and greater. Benchrest shooters for 100-200 yds shoot short barrels, simply for less barrel time. Us longer range shooters need the velocity  from the longer barrel to get through the wind. Intrinsically both rifles shoot the same.

[Anderson3754]

1 minute ago, 98Z5V said:

That's gotta suck for hunting.  That long of a barrel isn't easy to carry all day, if you're walking for/to game, doesn't clear brush or veg easily, and the swing-weight on a 24" barrel is tremendous.  That's alot of barrel hanging out there in front of you, and moving it from side to side is alot harder than swinging a shorter barrel. 

Oh yes..... it would suck hunting 4 legged game carrying it around all day, but I don't hunt any more. Some how I got hooked on long range precision marksmanship, and that vocation is where  I spend most of my time. However; I've been known to practice CQB rifle, pistol, and shotgun from time to time.

[98Z5V]

4 minutes ago, Anderson3754 said:

Oh yes I agree 100%  If for example your load and setup shoots a  1/2 minute the main reason for the longer barrel is velocity so as to have, less wind deflection at the longer ranges, for easy talking lets say 400yds and greater. Benchrest shooters for 100-200 yds shoot short barrels, simply for less barrel time. Us longer range shooters need the velocity  from the longer barrel to get through the wind. Intrinsically both rifles shoot the same.

My handload for my 18.5" AR is a 178gr Hornady ELD-M, with a muzzle velocity of 2530fps, in 50* weather.  That's cookin' for a 178gr load.  In 50* weather, it's 8.5 mils of drop at 850 yards, and it's supersonic to 1050 yards, and that's in 1390 feet of elevation.  That exact same load is crushing 2630fps in 105* weather, and that's 7.0 mils of drop at that same 850-yard target - and that's all from the change in density altitude.  The extreme change in density altitude from 50* to 105*, same load, same elevation, same gun.  Density Altitude is where it's at, for Long Range shooting.

[98Z5V]

3 minutes ago, Anderson3754 said:

Oh yes..... it would suck hunting 4 legged game carrying it around all day, but I don't hunt any more. Some how I got hooked on long range precision marksmanship, and that vocation is where  I spend most of my time. However; I've been known to practice CQB rifle, pistol, and shotgun from time to time.

Well...  he's talking about hunting here.  That's the main focus of his first post in this thread...  

Check it:

8 hours ago, Hick said:

Hello just got my first ar10 love it it's a bushmaster bar10 20 inch with fixed carry handle just wanting to know if any one has mounted a scope to the handle and if so can you post pics to see set up wanting to put scope on for hunting also thought about getting flat top to use for hunting and putting 18 inch on the fixed handle with no optics  for defence setup 

 

Edited September 25, 2020 by 98Z5V

[Anderson3754]

1 minute ago, 98Z5V said:

My handload for my 18.5" AR is a 178gr Hornady ELD-M, with a muzzle velocity of 2530fps, in 50* weather.  That's cookin' for a 178gr load.  In 50* weather, it's 8.5 mils of drop at 850 yards, and it's supersonic to 1050 yards, and that's in 1390 feet of elevation.  That exact same load is crushing 2630fps in 105* weather, and that's 7.0 mils of drop at that same 850-yard target - and that's all from the change in density altitude.  The extreme change in density altitude from 50* to 105*, same load, same elevation, same gun.  Density Altitude is where it's at, for Long Range shooting.

Those velocity's are nice what powder, primer, do you use?

[98Z5V]

3 minutes ago, Anderson3754 said:

Some how I got hooked on long range precision marksmanship, and that vocation is where  I spend most of my time.

What's your .308AR drop at 850 yards - or close - for your long range load?

[98Z5V]

Just now, Anderson3754 said:

Those velocity's are nice what powder, primer, do you use?

Lake City once-fired brass with CCI 200s, and Accurate 2495 powder.  Not even CCI 34s or magnum primers. Here's the gun:

[Anderson3754]

Ya got me on that one. i've only shoot them at 600 yds prone, front rest, rear bag 16 inch high at a 100yds generally puts you in the 9 ring at 600 yds. From there its 10 min to 800yds, 5min to 900 yds and 5 min to 1000 yds. 188 gr vld and 43.5 grs of Reloader 15 Br2 primer and a Win case.

Edited September 25, 2020 by Anderson3754

[Hick]

Yea gun is pretty heavy it bushmaster bar10 got it for 800$ he wanted 1300 for it main thoughts was to try use it for hunting and defence rifle thought about getting rra lar8 flat top and putting the 20 inch barrel on it with scope then using carry handle upper and build a 18 or 16 inch defence upper with just the iron sights  any suggestion  on this all feed back is helpful 

[Anderson3754]

3 minutes ago, 98Z5V said:

Lake City once-fired brass with CCI 200s, and Accurate 2495 powder.  Not even CCI 34s or magnum primers. Here's the gun:

I like that setup alot, nice adjust Butt plate.  Tell me how is your rear sling attached to that stock, its hard for me to see, the how part. 

[98Z5V]

17 minutes ago, Hick said:

Yea gun is pretty heavy it bushmaster bar10 got it for 800$ he wanted 1300 for it main thoughts was to try use it for hunting and defence rifle thought about getting rra lar8 flat top and putting the 20 inch barrel on it with scope then using carry handle upper and build a 18 or 16 inch defence upper with just the iron sights  any suggestion  on this all feed back is helpful 

Details of your gun are gonna be important - as well as pictures.  The original Bushmaster BAR-10 is a different platform than Armalite AR-10 and DPMS LR-308 platforms (which are different from each other).  The original Bushmaster BAR-10 IS THE DESIGN for the Rock River LAR-8, though..  Rock River bought that design from Bushmaster, and Bushmaster switched over to the DPMS LR-308 design after that.

We need to know what you have, and pics will help.

17 minutes ago, Anderson3754 said:

Ya got me on that one. i've only shoot them at 600 yds prone, front rest, rear bag 16 inch high at a 100yds generally puts you in the 9 ring at 600 yds. From there its 10 min to 800yds, 5min to 900 yds and 5 min to 100 yds. 188 gr vld and 43.5 grs of Reloader 15 Br2 primer and a Win case.

That's not even "Long Distance" right there.  Wind barely affects a .308 Win round at 600 yards. 

I measure my loads, and know what they're gonna do at different distances, different elevations, different Density Altitudes (weather).  Wind is what you have to account for, and can't truly just calculate.  Reading wind is an art.  But a 10mph Full Value wind at 600 yards on that load is still only 1.4 mils of hold for my gun.  At 600 yards, 50*, my drop is 4.7 mils.

Edited September 25, 2020 by 98Z5V

[Anderson3754]

2 minutes ago, 98Z5V said:

That's not even "Long Distance" right there.  Wind barely affects a .308 Win round at 600 yards

Hmmm.....Your correct,,,, 600 yds is now classified has mid range. but when you need to shoot a 198x200 or better with a min of a 50% X count just to place in the top 5. Reading the wind becomes very important.

[98Z5V]

5 minutes ago, Anderson3754 said:

Hmmm.....Your correct,,,, 600 yds is now classified has mid range. but when you need to shoot a 198x200 or better with a min of a 50% X count just to place in the top 5. Reading the wind becomes very important.

So, you're a Bench Rest shooter, giving gun advice to someone that's asking about a hunting rifle...   Got it.  mpo

I can read wind...   Well, too.  13.9mph Full Value wind, shooting 5.56 75gr handloads at 850 yards...   That was 5 3/4 mils of wind hold, off-target, just to repeatedly hit it.  Like I said, reading wind is an art...   It takes practice (and weather, ammo, and money) to get a grasp on it, until you get good at it.  Nobody ever "masters" it.  Because wind is unpredictable.

Edited September 25, 2020 by 98Z5V

[Hick]

Believe  it the older model says model bar10 then under says bar 000133

[98Z5V]

Just now, Hick said:

Believe  it the older model says model bar10 then under says bar 000133

Damn, that's one of the originals, right there, based on that serial number.  I wouldn't touch it, as far as modifications go.  One day - especially now that Remington killed off Bushmaster - that will be worth something.  Keep that gun like it is, enjoy shooting it - and just build something else that you'd love to hunt.  

[Anderson3754]

Just now, 98Z5V said:

So, you're a Bench Rest shooter, giving gun advice to someone that's asking about a hunting rifle...   Got it. 

No no no. I shoot Highpower slow fire prone. Palma 800-900-1000. Traditional Benchrest shooting I have no use for

[Hick]

Yea I bought for 800 then looked online said it was selling at auctions for around 2k then saw one that sold for $2500 are these particular rifles hard to find?

[Anderson3754]

5 minutes ago, Hick said:

Believe  it the older model says model bar10 then under says bar 000133

That rifle is very nice, buy ammo and shoot it. If it is no longer a production rifle just leave as is. Just build a 2nd rifle to suit your taste

[98Z5V]

11 minutes ago, Hick said:

Yea I bought for 800 then looked online said it was selling at auctions for around 2k then saw one that sold for $2500 are these particular rifles hard to find?

You, my man, have the 133rd build Bushmaster BAR-10 that was ever built.  Ever.  Just going off the early serial number, there are only 132 other people in the entire world that have a Bushmaster BAR-10 that's older than what you have in your hands right now.  Put that thing in the safe, and don't change it.  Shoot it, love it, become familiar with it - but don't change it.  It'll only go UP in value in the future.

What you have right there, THAT design Bushmaster BAR-10 - is what the Rock River Arms LAR-8 is today.  THAT is the design that RRA bought from Bushmaster, to launch their business with Large-Frame ARs.

Now, let's talk about what you need to get, parts-wise, to build you a hunting .308AR. 

Edited September 25, 2020 by 98Z5V