MajorJim

Parker area.

DPMS publishes pictures of parts for various configurations: http://www.dpmsinc.com/parts/index.aspx Those can tie into the general schematic they also have posted for an AR 15: http://www.dpmsinc.com/support/schematics/

This is interesting. I asked Young Manufacturing the same question. Here is their response: The DPMS bolt I have is matched to the new barrel. I know the JP bolts are held to pretty tight tolernaces, but the barrel came with its own matched bolt. I can send the DPMS bolt and carrier back to Young for fitting, or I can give the JP bolt a shot. Thoughts?

I just had another thought - was the correct barrel extention used, and/or was the barrel seated all the way back into the receiver before the ring was tightened? And was the ring tightened with a torque wrench to spec? As 98Z5V noted, the BCG is supposed to push the buffer back a little bit when the BCG is mounted in the receiver. IF the barrel was seated too far forward, that could allow for some play in the BCG and receiver.

Thanks! The Mobil One idea really started with the bench rest guys a few years back. There are several varieties of Mobil One - right now, I have a 10W30, but they have it in higher and lower viscosities (even a 0W). Royal Purple saw this happening and they now offer a specific gun oil, of course, capitalizing on the permium pricing for firearm lubes. A quart of a synthetic motor oil is about the same price as 4 ounces of "gun" oil. The US is a bit behind the rest of the world on the HBN bandwagon. When HBN first hit the firearms scene, the only place you could get was from Canada. As far as car oils go, I can't find any US oil company that offers it. In Europe and Asia, HBN has been available as an additive for years. I just found this available in the US - Cera Tec ( http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/mediendb.nsf/gfx/315F4856B709C6E3C12573B000545958/$file/TI%20Cera%20Tec%20oil%20additive.pdf) has been offered by the Liqui Moly company in Germany for some years now, and it gets some outstanding reviews. The HBN in Cera Tec is 2 nano meters or less (that is 2/10 of one micron), compared with the 5 micron size used for bullet coating. Since it is imported, coupled wth the low exchange rate for the US dollar these days, it is not cheap. But, for use with firearms, one container should be a lifetime supply.

I was thinking about a list for existing Firearm treatments and lubricants (leaving the cleaners out of this one). There is a lot of discussion out there on individual products, but one "list" of the ones currently available are few and far between. I took a list started on another forum and added to it. What got me started on this is that I am a big fan of HBN coatings (Hexagonal Boron Nitride) and started following it at about the same time David Tubb was testing it. It has been available in powder form for some time now, but a powder is tough to apply to moving internal parts (and gets mighty expensive). I did find recently that there are a small number of vendors selling an aerosol version of HBN. I have an order into ZYP, and will be seeing how that works. Might also do a test to see how it acts as a bedding release agent. I became a true believer when I dropped a pinch of the stuff on the shop floor and almost broke my neck when I walked on top of it with rubber soled shoes. Cerflon does have boron nitride it is, but also contains moly. Here it is: Ballistol USA http://www.ballistol.com/ Birchwood-Casey: RIG, Gunscrubber, etc. http://sport.birchwoodcasey.com/RIG.aspx Blue Wonder – Disotec XFR http://www.bluewonder.us/ Boeshield http://boeshield.com/ Bore Tech, Inc. http://www.boretech.com/ Break-Free – Break-Free CLP http://www.break-free.com/ Ed Brown Products – Firearm Lubricant #960 http://www.edbrown.com/apparel.htm Brownell’s – Action Magic, Friction Defense, etc. http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/cid=5...ils-Lubricants Burke’s Gun Oil http://www.burkesgunoil.com/ Cera Tec (Liqui Moly Products, Germany) http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/web.nsf/id/li_eng_archive49.html (HBN additive for oil 1:5 or less ratio) Cerflon http://www.cerflon.com/ Clenzoil Worldwide http://www.clenzoil.com/ Corrosion Technologies – CorrosionX http://www.corrosionx.com/ Cylinder & Slide, Inc. – C&S Reliability Lube http://www.cylinder-slide.com/index.html Du-Lite Corporation – KWIKSEAL Firearm Lubricant http://du-lite.com/Du-Lite%20KwikSea...0Lubricant.htm Eezox http://www.eezox.com/ Brian Enos – Slide-Glide http://www.brianenos.com/pages/slide-glide.html FTI, Inc. – Tetra Products http://www.tetraproducts.com/ Georgia Gunsmithing Boron Nitride http://gagunsmithingllc.org/?page_id=426 Gibbs Penetrating Oil http://getgibbs.com/about.php G96 Products Company http://www.g96.com/index.html Gun Butter http://www.gunbutter.com/ Gunslick Pro – Ultra Lube http://www.gunslick.com/default.aspx Gunzilla *(added)* http://www.gunzilla.us/ Hoppe’s http://www.hoppes.com/ Hydra Tone Chemicals – Rusty Duck Protective Lubricant http://www.hydra-tone.com/RustyduckFrame1Source1.htm IOSSO Products - http://www.iosso.com/ Kano Laboratories, Inc. – Kroil, Micro Oil, etc. http://www.kanolabs.com/ KG Industries – KG-4 Gun Oil, KG5 – Trigger Lube, etc. http://www.kgcoatings.com/ KleenBore http://www.kleen-bore.com/ Lauer Custom Weaponry – DuraCoat Products: Lauer TruLube http://www.lauerweaponry.com/index.cfm Lucas Gun Oil http://www.lucasgunoil.com/ Lyman – Butch’s Products http://www.butchsboreshine.com/ Bob Marvel – Bob Marvel’s Custom Oil http://bobmarvelcustomguns.com/ Mil-Comm http://www.mil-comm.com/ Microlon – Gun Juice http://www.microlon.com/ Militec-1 http://www.militec1.com/ Mobil One http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1.aspx (Wall Mart, Auto Parts Stores) Montana Xtreme http://www.montanaxtreme.com/ MPC Lubricants – Firepower FP-10 http://www.mpclubricants.com/firepower.php M-Pro 7 http://www.mpro7.com/ MPT Industries http://mptindustries.com/mpt_products/firearm.htm Prolix Lubricants http://www.prolixlubricant.com/ Pro-Shot Products http://www.proshotproducts.com/ Pro-Tec Lubricants http://www.protecafmt.com/AFMT/Home.html Remington – Rem Oil http://www.remington.com/products/ac...s/rem-oil.aspx RMI Lubricants – Krytox Oil and Grease http://www.rmilubricants.com/home.html Royal Purple http://www.royalpurple.com/gun-oil.html Russack, Inc. – Dri-Slide https://www.russack.com/ Rydol Lubricants http://www.rydol.com/products/index.htm Sentry Solutions – Tuf Glide, Hi-Slip, BP-2000 http://www.sentrysolutions.com/index.html Shooter’s Choice – FP10 http://www.shooters-choice.com/ Silver Bullet Gun Oil http://silverbulletgunoil.net/ Slide HI-TEMP 1800 MOLD RELEASE AGENT NO. 44110 (Boron Nitride) http://www.slideproducts.com/cgi-bin...cgi?skucat=441 SLiP 2000 http://www.slip2000.com/ Sprinco USA (Tactical Springs) – Machine Gunner’s Lube http://www.sprinco.com/tactical.html Steel Shield Technologies – Weapon Shield http://www.steelshieldtech.com/mainpage/ Super Lube http://www.super-lube.com/ Tetra Gun Grease http://www.tetraproducts.com/ The TM Solution http://tmss.net/ USA Lubrications – Gibbs Gun Oil http://www.usalubrications.com/gibbs-guns.html Valtro USA – Jardine’s Extreme Superior Grade Weapon’s Grease http://valtrousa.com/jardinesextremegrease.html Weapon Shield. www.steelshieldtech.com/ Wilson Combat – Ultima Lube http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Maintena.../products/173/ XF-7 http://www.mdtactical.com/accessories.htm ZYP Coatings Boron Nitride http://www.zypcoatings.com/ProductPages/BnCoatings.htm Right now, I am using XF-7 for grease (same thing Smith Enterprises uses in thier builds), Mobil One for lubricating and cleaning in the new build, and Slip 2000 for the wet tunning in AR's. Using either Corrosion X or Boeshield for storage.

Thank 98ZV5!

Check out the price versus DPMS store. http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=44034/avs%7CManufacturer_1=DPMS%20FIREARMS%20LLC/Product/_308_AR_BOLT_COMPONENT_PACK

Just got my DPMS bolt matched to the new barrel. I started assembling the bolt carrier group with the Young carrier - whoa! Talk about stiff! I am used to the M-16 and M-4 5.56 BCG's where the bolt will slide to the front of the carrier with a good flick of the wrist. Are .308 BCG's supposed to be a lot stiffer? The Young carrier is hard chromed, DPMS bolt is their stock coating.

Didn't get run off. Just had to log off tto take the computer on the road. There is a lot to absorb, for sure. The good news is that there is a lot more to absorb these days than there was two or more years ago. More choices is a good thing, most of the time. While there are more choices, they are scattered all over the place - no one vendor all of the options in one easy place. And sometimes you have to dig pretty deep. I just chanced upon the Young Manufacturing BCG after I emailed them to ask if they had a .308 version of their BCG. And when you first start down the .308 trail, you have to wrestle with the whole compatability issue - what parts from an AR 15 are compatible with a .308? What parts are compatible between Armalite and DPMS platforms? What parts are not? And on and on. And you get a part like a Young Carrier (no bolt yet) - damn, the DMPS retaining pin is too loose. Oh, they didn't tell me they designed it to work with the regular M16 firing pin retaining pins. Will a DPMS bolt fit into the Yong Carrier? (Yes, as will other bolts). This has been a two year process for me. So, here is my thinking process: I went with DPMS style receivers - more comptabile platforms out there, plus, and a big plus, mags were interchangeable across a wide variety of platforms (and the Magpul mags at $20 a pop can be used). Trigger - Geiselle two stage. The epitomy of what "breaks like glass" should feel like. Stock - Magpul PRS. Anything from iron sights, low mount to high rings. I have a 14.75" LOP, so the adjustment was important. Cerakoting on the receiver group. Gas block - Lo Pro PRI (rifle length tube) Forearm - taking a close look at the PRI 15" BUS - Have a spare set Brake - JP Bennie Cooley type or a Smith Enterprise vortex (depedning on whether I even need a comp) Barrel - that was probably the toughest. Since I believe the barrel and bolt should be matched, I wanted to have a barrel that lasted more than average. Which is what led me to the carbon wrapped, Kreiger aluminum heat sink inquiries. The claims are pretty impressive, but I found little in the way of actual support for those claims. By the way, the latest from XPA: My issue with carbon was and is that there is a lot of information out there from the computer industry that discusses potential issues regarding the carbon acting as insulation instead of working to dissapate heat. It is the heat dissapation that would extend barrel life, so this is important to me. When I asked, they noted that the information I posted here was correct, but they couold not share how their process worked to allay my concerns. For $1000+, I personally don't feel comfortable committing on a "trust me". Lothar was an option, and we know aluminum acts as a good sink, but not a lot of information on just how durable that is. I want more than a bench rifle, and again, at $875 when my primary purpose was barrel life, I passed. Of course, you then have the stainless versus chrome moly deal. I have never been impressed with 416 stainless for a rifle, and will go CM every time. Lothar's LM-50 stainless is an exception, and in researching that, it does look like the real deal. I found the Douglas from Superior Barrels I posted here. Lots of good reviews on melonite extending barrel life, and Superior's coating is tougher than melonite. While Superior won't say how long, information I found looks like it is a good bet that twice normal is a reasonable expectation. I thought 24" barrels for an AR were a bit too long, and 20" left, IMHO, a bit on the table. I started my quest for 21" and found the Superior at 22". Done. Another thing that makes the barrel quest so hard is the WIDE range in proces. Fulton has some great deals if you buy off the rack, and I have heard no complaints about their barrels. Krieger has some nice barrels, but man....$640 for one chambered (unless it is their 20" MTU version, then it is only $615). If you want fluting to for the increased surface for cooling, that is an extra $130. And BYOB (bring your own bolt). And of course, while most people are pretty new to the .308 AR platform, everyone has barrel experience with other rifles. And prejudices and preferences. I ended up ordering the Douglas because they a top notch US maker, and their XX match barrels (which this one is) are among the best. They are more well known with the bench rest crowd, but a lot of what those bench guys test for the rest of us ending up in use by us great unwashed. I took care of the extended barrel life want with the Hard Blue coating, got the length I was looking for, and got a matched DMPS bolt with the barrel included in the price. And the bolt will work with my carrier. Figure the rifle will come in at around 10 pounds, which is close to what most of my hunting rifles weigh. If a 160 pound GI could hump a 9.5 pound Garand across Europe and Africa, I think I can man-up to handling the weight. Would it have been cheaper to buy a completed rifle off the rack? I'd bet on it. Would I have had an easier time buying a rack barrel? No question. But this is my build. Something I am doing just for me. I have certainly taken my time, but I'd rather wait than settle for something I am building. But that's just me.

Sorry if I pissed you off. I did hear and did understand what you said. It was my preference to stick with the DMPS extension and bolt - I have the new Match Young bolt and carrier designed for the DPMS style receiver, and it is my preference to stick with that. That, and the barrel I am looking at was spaced for a DPMS bolt. I have read on other boards that there are issues with using a DPMS extension on an Armalite receiver, and vice versa. The conventional wisdom was just avoid it. It is good to hear that using one barrel extention with a different type is not an issue. Comments after my post on the selection of a Douglas barrel were made as an update to posts before that decision was made. I thought that since I opened the door to other alternatives, I might was well report back on what I heard. Again, my apologies if that was outside the white lines here. I appreciate all of the advice I have received here.

Thanks but I have a DPMS style receiver. Still, I took a look - $620 for the National Match Barrel in CM(I assume it is already contoured and chambered), and another $75 if you want muzzle threads. The stainless version will run you another $200. And BYOB (Bring Your Own Bolt). Without any finish (bead blasting or melonite), and without fluting. Stainless with threaded muzzle will run you $895 for the barrel alone. Prices quoted by Lothar Walther on their LM-50 with the Aluminum shroud (heat sink) was $875, and a carbon wrapped Rock barrel from XPA/ABS at $900. The Douglas came with a matched DPMS bolt, and right about now that is looking like a pretty good deal.

The response from Krieger: So, after buying a $400 blank frim Krieger, about another $300 plus a wait of ???? to get a barrel (Krieger charges $240 for chambering and headpsacing to your bolt, there there is the coutouring, and if you want fluting, another $125. Best guess at this point is that would add another $300 plus to the barrel alone. That makes $900 for a carbon wrapped barrel, or $875 for a Lothar with the aluminum heat sink, not look so bad.

Received a response from XPA on the carbon dissipation/insulation questions. If they told me they'd have to kill me:

What do you think of this one: http://www.shop.superiorbarrels.com/product.sc?productId=118&categoryId=15 Very close to the one I had in my mind. 22" versus 21", contour very close, .308 Match chamber, 1:10 twist, button rifled 6 groove, .875 gas block, and comes in at 4 pounds 4 ounces without fluting. Douglas Match XX air gauged And I really liked this: http://www.shop.superiorbarrels.com/images/AR10-5.jpg

Anyone ever try something like this (With HBN): http://slideproducts.com/cgi-bin/product.cgi?skucat=441

Any thoughts or experience with Douglas match air gauged barrels?

Just an update. Last night, I sent an email off to XPA: And got a reply from XPA's production manager: I sent him a copy of the substance of the issues raised above with carbon - heat dissapator/sink versus heat insulator - and asked if he could give me some insight on what they do to their barrels to insure the heat moves out of the barrel. I'll update if they respond. The good news is that XPA is ready to roll with ABS's methods and patents. Probably just as good news is that I heard back from Lothar on their Ultrlight with the aluminum heat sink posted at the link above. And they will also customize the barrel with their LW-50 match stainless (OAL, chamber length, gas port diameter, barrel diameter before and after the port, threaded muzzle, etc). So we appear to have two different choices in lightweight heat sinked barrels that should both theoretically improve barrel life and multiple shot accuracy. Stay tuned.

Some interesting information on carbon fiber. The concept of wrapping carbon around a barrel is sold as a way to get the barrel to cool faster. In other words, in transferring heat away from the barrel, it is said to act as a heat sink. When using synthetic material, however, there is also the possibility that the wrap is actually acting as an insulator. Wrap a barrel with asbestos, and it will feel cool as well. Steel is a good conductor of heat. So is aluminum and copper. Steel will heat slower than aluminum or copper, but will also cool slower. Carbon? Well, it does have insulating properties, depending on the direction of the fiber. Wrapped the wrong way, a carbon barrel can actually direct heat back to the barrel. I started thinking of an industry that uses heat sinks and is generally at the forefront of that technology. The computer industry! The quote below can be found in the article at the following link: http://rtcmagazine.com/articles/view/100944 Basically the same conclusion here: http://www.nexlogic.com/Portals/0/New-Materials-and-Techniques-Tackle-PCB-Thermal-Management.pdf I have used boron nitrade in bullet coating, and the stuff ain't cheap! A little beter explanation of just how that technology works here: http://www.mdatechnology.net/update.aspx?id=a4103 It sounds like the semi conductor industry is going in the carbon direction, but for now, if air cooling is used, aluminum is first choice. I have no clue what technique the carbon wrapped barrel makers use in their product, but it sounds like it is quite involved and expensive if you are going to use the carbon as a heat sink. Seems to make sense - if the barrel cools faster, barrel life is prolonged. But is carbon wrap cooliing via acting as a heat sink or acting as insulation not allowing heat to escape? Since I don't shoot in an environment where air cooling is not possible, I think I am going to give the Lothar Ultralight with the aluminum alloy sink a closer look.

Matt, I actually have a message into Woody over at LW. This caught my eye: http://www.lothar-walther.com/396.php

Found a bit of interesting news, Bettin Custom posted that they no longer offer ABS barrels. They note on their site that ABS sold the patent to XPA, Xtreme Precision Armaments, in Montana. I believe Jense is somehow associated with XPA, if not one in the same. Same city anyway.

Iron Ridge upper and lower.

Just fired this off to Krieger: Doing some research, the Noveske 21" offering for Armalite receivers is getting some pretty high praise. I compared Mike Rock's contours with Kriegers, and Rock uses a chamber length of 5" for its AMU/MTU contours while Krieger uses 2.75". Something to be said for a longer chamber on the Rock barrels, as I believe many will attest to. The overall contour does not exactly match any one, coming closest to the Rock Sendero or the Krieger #9 Heavy Target. Krieger lists the weight of their heavy target at 6.5 pounds for a 27" barrel. so we are at about .24 pounds an inch. Making allowance for more weight at the bore, it looks like shortening the barrel to 21" would take the total weight down to a little over 5 pounds. Fluting whould hopefully shave it down to under 4.5 pounds. I'll let you know what I hear.

This is getting frustrating... Coming down to the wire on my build and it is time for a barrel. Got the Youong bolt carrier and the bolt itself should be ready in September. Went through the whole carbon barrel analysis, and I was set to go that direction. Two unanswered emails and one answered phone message leter, I am passing on that option. My view is that if a ready to buy buyer has to go through that for the sale process, what is the service level going to be like? Just called White Oak Precision. Described what I wanted to Paul, and they told me I needed to go through one of their retailers - D9 Firearms or another. They really did not like to do 1 off type barrels. If one of their retailers could put a "group buy" together, they could handle the production without messing up their line for one barrel. Have to say I was a little shocked at the response, based on what I have read on many forums about White Oak's service and flexibility. In terms of what I want, this is the wish list: 21" chrome moly barrel (Noveske seems to have hit a sweet spot with their 21" offering, but that is only for the AR10 style receivers, not DPMS style. ) Chamber in .308 Obemeyer, 1:10 twist. Contour I can be flexible on - The Noveske looks like it is a heavy #9 target, but I could certainly deal with an AMU/MTU or M24. I would have the barel fluted, primarily to cut down on weight. I have zero interest in making a market for a new barrel for White Oak that competes with the Noveske model. I can probably put my hands on a Rock 5R blank, but I'd have to get into someone's queue for the finish and chambering work. Krieger is an option, but is up there on both a time and expense scale. Any suggestions? Thanks Jim

After reading this thread, about 3 weeks ago I dropped an email to Jense indicating tht I wanted to buy one oeir Rock 5R carbon wrapped barrels, and that I was interested in having them mount the barrel and headspace the bolt. Nothing. Dropped another email early this week, attaching the first one. Nothing. Called them yesterday around noon and left a message that I wanted to buy. Nothing. I had myself all taked into a carbon barrel (twice the barrel life, etc) and had justified the cost in my mind. Looks like I'll be sticking with steel. I am anxious to see the range reports from the guys that were fortunate enough to score one.