SgtDog0311

Took that to heart about finding a shop. Be looking next day or three.

Ok, let me see if I can thoroughly expose my ignorance here yet manage some clear questions. This post content/questions is not nearly as long as it looks. Just including some lifted posts making up the some-total of my exposure. It will be old-hat to you fellas but including since my questions arise in part from the reading. I promise I'll leave you guys alone after this. First off, I took this from the AERO ‘rifle’ buffer: Buffer Length: 5.3” Buffer Weight: 5.6 oz. I couldn’t see a reference to the receiver extension (tube) length and wanted it just to compare with the Armalite. Didn’t find the tube length there either. I wanted to compare just to visualize the differences but they would be relative to some questions. So, questions: The length of pull you end up with is controlled by the 6 adjustments incorporated in the Armalite tube, right? In other words the Magpul “carbine” stocks have the adjustment lever but the catches are built into the tube??? And the AERO “rifle” buffer & tube in my Wish List, having similar weight and buffer length, has no length of pull adjustment, right? And from that… I’m thinking the Armalite buffer is capable of a longer length of pull by simply extending to it’s rear-most adjustment. If all that is correct then I’m only wondering if I’m giving up stability or play in the stock to receiver movement the further out I extend? Lifted content from the web on buffers with the Armalite data coming from other posts on this site. ======== ArmaLite receiver extension tubes info are as follows... •.223 / .308 rifle length 9-11/16” (inside depth) •.223 carbine length 6-15/16” (inside depth) •.308 carbine length 7-5/8” (inside depth) Commercial size tube O.D. - 1.165” – 1.167” (don’t use this anymore) Military (G.I.) size tube O.D. – 1.145” – 1.147” (carbine and rifle) BUFFER SPRINGS •.308 buffer spring rifle and carbine length 14-1/8” max - 13-3/4" min •.223 buffer spring rifle length 13-1/2” max – 11-3/4” min •.223 buffer spring carbine length 11-1/4” max – 10-1/16” min BUFFERS •.223 rifle length 5-7/8” – weight 5.2 oz •.308 rifle length 5-3/16” – weight 5.4 oz •.223 carbine length 3-1/4” – weight 3.0 oz •.308 carbine length 3-1/4” – weight 5.4 oz Basics: When a bullet has been fired, the released energy causes the bolt carrier to travel backwards until it reaches the buffer housed within the buffer spring. At this point, the buffer will drive the spring backwards, compressing it against the buffer tube. As the spring returns to its extended position, the buffer will push the bolt and return it to the firing position, chambering a new round. The weight of the buffer and the strength of the spring are key to ensuring the proper function of your rifle. A spring that fits securely within the buttstock of your rifle is probably the proper length. Buffer weights are a little trickier to determine. If the weight is too heavy, the force of the rifle firing will not be sufficient to drive the spring back and reload the weapon. If the buffer is too light, the bolt carrier will move too quickly and will be unable to perform its proper functions. Buffer weights are dependent on the type of firearm you are operating. AR-15 Carbine buffers weigh an average of 3.0 ounces. They include three steel weights. Heavy buffers (H buffers) have an average weight of 3.8 ounces. They consist of one tungsten weight and two steel weights. H2 buffers weigh an average of 4.7 ounces. They include two tungsten and one steel weight. The heaviest buffers of all are the H3 buffers. They have an average weight of 5.6 ounces and include three tungsten weights. One other type of buffer is the rifle length buffer, averaging 5.0 ounces. This buffer contains five steel weights with one steel spacer. The weights listed here are all approximations. The actual weight of the buffer will depend on the manufacturer's standards. A buffer and spring that are properly matched will significantly reduce recoil while maintaining the momentum needed to successfully reload the weapon. Less Basic: There's a lot of confusion surrounding which buffer and spring to use with what gas system. For starters, the original buffer system is what we commonly refer to as a "rifle" buffer, and is used in "rifle" receiver extensions (more commonly called buffer tubes). These are used in A1 and A2 style stocks. The rifle buffer is simple, since the buffer itself is typically available in only one weight (around 5oz, give or take), with a spring long enough to handle any gas system upper in use, it's a safe bet to use, and has been used successfully for decades. Progress being what it is, an adjustable length of pull stock was developed that necessitated a shorter buffer tube in order to provide the greatest range of adjustment available. We call these "carbine" tubes. Since the tube is shorter, a shorter spring and buffer was also needed, and here is where we start to run into the confusion issues. Before we get too far, in a "normal" situation, gas system length has NO EFFECT on which buffer system (rifle or carbine) you use. The attractiveness of the carbine stock system for most people is the adjustable length of the rifle, either for different clothing thicknesses or shooting positions, or for more compact storage. The other sometimes desirable option is you have 4 different "mil-spec" buffer weights available for tuning that can range from 3.5 to 4.5oz, again, give or take a little bit on either end. The first part of confusion starts when looking at the buffer weight range is usually something like "well, why don't we just use the same weight as the rifle buffer if it's so reliable?" The simple answer is because the springs are different. The rifle system's long travel and comparatively softer spring rate is not a direct translation to the shorter comparatively stiffer spring rate in the carbine system, which is where we get the variety of weights coming into play. Before I go much further, something to note, if your rifle or carbine feeds, extracts and ejects reliably, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH YOUR RIFLE, regardless of what direction your brass flings out, regardless of how badly your rifle mangles the brass, and regardless of how much recoil you feel compared to your buddy's AR. Reliability is feeding EVERY TIME, extracting EVERY TIME, and ejecting clear EVERY TIME. With that out of the way, it's time to discuss what the buffer is actually doing. The buffer serves several functions, it provides a flat surface for the bolt carrier to interact with the spring, interacts with the buffer catch to keep the action spring contained for simpler field service, delays the bolt from unlocking after firing, and delays the bolt's return forward after ejecting. The buffer performs these last two functions by way of the sliding weights inside the buffer body, which are available in different materials and allows for "tuning". What would you need to tune for? If the bolt carrier is receiving too much gas, the carrier can move forward so quickly that the buffer bumper actually strikes the end of the buffer tube and rebound forward quicker than it's supposed to. This can lead to a base over failure to feed, where the magazine can't lift the next round into position quickly enough for the bolt to feed it into the chamber. By increasing the weight of the buffer, the force applied by the gas is acting on a higher total mass, preventing the buffer from rebounding and allowing the weights inside to act as a dead-blow hammer and temporarily stall the carrier's movement before returning to battery. This gives the magazine time to properly present the next round, and all is right in the world. Other added (arguable) benefits of a heavier buffer is reduced felt recoil since the buffer isn't striking the end of the tube, and delayed unlocking of the bolt (which is said to increase accuracy). If the bolt carrier is short stroking, not moving back far enough to pick up the next round (most easily diagnosed by failure to lock back after firing a single round loaded in the magazine), and a heavy buffer is used, going to a lighter buffer may resolve the issue. If a standard carbine buffer is being used, the rifle is under-gassed, either by gas block misalignment, gas tube misalignment, too small of a gas port in the barrel, or too short of a dwell time for the size and location of the gas port in the barrel. You may have noticed I haven't talked about fancy "plus power" springs, or gas systems being used. Generally, these don't matter if you're using a trusted vendor for your action spring, or a common format barrel. If you're going outside the "normal" too far, you're best off following in someone else's foot steps, or being prepared to spend a lot of time and possibly money solving your issues. For example, a carbine gassed or mid-length gassed 16" barrel is used successfully all the time, so if you really think you want a rifle gassed 16" barrel, you probably should reconsider, or be prepared to figure it out on your own. Regardless of advertised carbine buffer weights, disassembly will tell you what to classify it as. A "Standard" carbine buffer will have no markings, but contain 3 steel weights separated by neoprene discs. A "Heavy" buffer will be marked with a single "H" and contain 2 steel, and one tungsten weight, again separated by neoprene discs. H2 is marked "H2", and contains 1 steel and 2 tungsten weights H3, marked "H3" contains, you guessed it, 3 tungsten weights, still separated by neoprene discs. A bit on diagnostics and testing: The reason the military came up with the different weight buffers was to slow down the cyclic rate when firing full auto to increase reliability, and reduce abusive heat generation. In the civilian world, we use heavier buffers to reduce felt recoil (gamer guns use adjustable gas systems choked down as much as possible with the lightest buffer possible to run on the ragged edge of reliability with the lightest recoil possible). The actual recoil isn't reduced by a significant amount by going to a heavier buffer, it's decreased since there's more mass in the weapon, but mainly the impulse is longer, making it seem like there's less push on your shoulder, even though the percentage of change you're dealing with is in the realm of insignificance. The easiest way to determine if you have a gas issue (not enough) or a buffer weight issue (too much gas) in a failure to feed situation is to load a single round in a magazine and fire it to see if the bolt locks back. If it does, you may need to try a heavier buffer (the bolt catch can be lifted faster than a fresh round by the mag spring and follower). If it doesn't lock the bolt back, you may have a gas issue to sort out. If you're the experimental type, buying a standard carbine buffer and an H3 buffer will give you enough weights to build all 4 possible combinations, simply by drifting out the buffer bumper roll pin and swapping weights around.

Thanks, I'll check those out. Scope is gonna be a while due to $$. This site will be the first to know because I'll sure be asking another set of questions then(-:

Digested all that. Thanks again. Triggers are another new animal for me. I hone most of my old levers to 2.5 if I adjust them at all. My match Ballards are about 3oz. double-set-triggers. But some of my old Ballards are 4+lb single-set-triggers. What I'd want in a semi-auto fire 308 ??? I assume 'light' is not smart unless you are shooting matches of some sort. But single or two stage is not something I'd know enough for a preference. Guess we'll develop a preference for the 2S (-: If that is what you guys are using I'll go with that and figure I'll be happy. So, from that wish list I only see three more things that might need scrutiny. 1. How about charging handles ? Is there some reason I'd want to spend the significantly higher $$ on the ambidextrous? 2. Sights... any recommendations over the AERO Gen 2 sights? 3. Muzzle Break. Been corrected on that original 6.5 selection but wondering if I ought to look beyond the VG6 Epsilon or is that as good or better than other options? I do have some questions I'll ask in a separate post about the buffer yet (not on choice but on some particulars about how the receive extension component works with a carbine stock). Don't have that clear in my mind yet.

jtallen83, thanks on the Nitrade question. I looked on Brownells after several posts above and I guess I didn't realize Brownell had their own brand. I did look at Toolcraft on their site and looked for them on Brownells. On the MBT, the reference was MBT2 but I kept seeing MBT-2S. Are they the same or different generations of the same? I liked what I saw on YouTube but don't want to order the wrong thing.

Appreciate the input Ravenworks, I checked out the Primary Arms on barrels. Didn't see any half price sales and wonder if there is a way to receive notification of sales of if you just have to keep an eye on their site. The one they had listed comparable to the one in my "wish list' was a little bit cheaper, without a sale running. On the buffer, jt broached the Armalite after I told him the tech on AERO's site said I couldn't got with anything but the "rifle" buffer and that then limited me on the magpul stock. Its all greek to me yet but I did welcome his claim that I was not limited to the "rifle" buffer based on the stock preferences. On the BCG, if Toolcraft makes AEROs BCG, then it's a matter of sales as, being a newbee to this environ, I'd be more comfortable going that route. Right now, the Toolcraft price is a good $80 cheaper but maybe Black Friday will give some opportunities to get theirs cheaper. On sights, I have not ventured into the cyber world for options. Just say the new Gen 2 sights on AERO and so far I'm still shooting irons, albeit an advanced case of glaucoma will change that eventually. On the upside I shot well at the Quigley this year, 15th out of 650 shooters. Might have been my last hurrah though. I bought a scope for my Ballard this year thinking it might be.

I watched a YouTube video on the LaRue comparing with the Geissele. Thanks! One the BCG, any opinions to share on the finishes: Black Nitrate, Nickle Boron, Phosphate or any listed on Brownells?

shooterrex, I changed that. Thanks for the heads-up!

Thank You gentlemen, really appreciate the feedback. Anything that keeps quality and performance but lowers the bottom line on this will be a big help.

Ha ha... I did know that drill, by virtue of three older brothers. And it dang sure was a blank check you endorsed. If you didn’t know it on the bus you sure knew it later that night as the DIs so pleasantly guided you to the yellow footprints. Still chuckle over those memories even if I wasn’t exactly giggling then. Funny how things can remain so fresh in a 65 yr old brain when others fade so fast:-)

Howdy Gents, First let me say I have my several-1000s of posts on Levergun, Single Shot and Casting forums but I’m a babe-in-the-woods here. I trained with the M14 in the service early on (and have an M1A) and later was issued and humped the hills of Pendleton with an M-16, but we shot and cleaned them. That’s it! For everything else they were turned them into the armorer. So I know squat about what I’m embarking on. I just ordered an M5E1 Upper and Lower from AERO and have the following in my Wish List, with the intent of slipping things over to the Cart as sales materialize, hopefully Black Friday netting some good ones. So, I’m that guy… the new member asking questions that have been fielded a hundred times. I’ve searched and will continue to search but if anyone desires to make recommendations for swapping out what I have currently for a better build, then I’m all ears. At 65 I don’t really want to learn all the lessons first hand that I learned with casting and buying old vintage levers and single shots. I’ve already got a recommendation from jtallen83 regarding the buffer. https://www.armalite.com/product/ar10rekit01-6-position-receiver-extension-kit/ And I’m reading all I can on that in some of the threads here but frankly my head is spinning. I’m assuming the armalite choice would open up the choices on the stock selected below. If you care to dive in just recognize the level of knowledge you are speaking to. Insofar as the choice in barrel, I went with the 20” just because I currently shoot out to a 1,000 in BPBR with vintage low-velocity rifles with cast bullets and it just doesn’t seem right to have less capability with a high velocity rifle. So there is that. But again, all we ever shot in the Corps was out to 500 yds so I’ve not been banging steal or shooting groups with my M1A or anything. Just thought 20” appropriate for the above reasons. So, other than the Upper & Lower which should be in route to my FFL now, this is what I have (with the AERO buffer not yet replaced with tj’s recommendation. Btw… I’m particularly interested in thoughts on the Geissele trigger choice. But everything is fair game on comments. Stocks too, since I’d like to know what you find handiest. $259.99 20" .308 CMV Barrel, Rifle Length https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/308-20-cmv-rifle-barrel $214.99 .308 / 7.62 Bolt Carrier Group, Complete - Black Nitride https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/308-bolt-carrier-group-black-nitride $50.99 M5 .308 Rifle Buffer Kit https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m5-308-rifle-buffer-kit-1 $29.99 AR 308 Charging Handle https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/ar308-charging-handle $24.99 .750 Low Profile Gas Block https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/750-low-profile-gas-block 18.99 Melonite Gas Tubes https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/gas-tube-melonite $69.95 Magpul MOE® Rifle Stock https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m5-ar308/spare-parts/furniture ** Didn’t really like the rifle stock choices so tj’s recommendation is the one I think opens this up, therefore the link is to all choices. $55.99 M5 MOE SL Lower Parts Kit Minus FCG https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m5-moe-sl-lower-parts-kit-minus-fcg $94.99 VG6 EPSILON 65 https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/vg6-epsilon-65 $124.99 Aero Flip-Up Sights Set, Gen 2 https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/aero-flip-up-sights-set-gen-2 $69.99 M5 (.308) Enhanced M-LOK Handguards, Gen 2 https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m5-enhanced-mlok-handguards-gen2 ** missed the sale on this this past weekend. Now it shows $189.99 $199.99 Geissele Super Semi-Automatic (SSA®) Trigger https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/geissele-super-semi-automatic-trigger ** again, this reflected the sale price at the time I captured the wish list. Thanks All! John, from Oklahoma and Idaho, depending on Wrestling and not the weather.

Btw Sirs... Thank you for the kind welcomes above. Never responded to those. And for those thanks regarding 'service'. You are Welcome of course. It was my honor and I'm one of many who got better than I gave. God Bless our combat vets for whom the tradeoff got more expensive. My older brothers (RIP) and a good many fellow platoon Sgt when I was at Pendleton were among those but being younger than most I was at that cusp of Vietnam - so didn't join them in that regard.

Thank you again tj. I'll sure do so. My search attempts are clumsy but I persevere. I reckon a search on every item in that "wish list" is gonna either improve my skills or wear me smooth out. You'd think I would be more proficient after my vintage levers and Ballards. Then there's this... say you go do a search on buffers - you come up with links like "the five best buffers out there". Ok, but that doesn't speak to the platform you finally settled on or the specifics, like the barrel/gas length. And then there is the compatibility to understand. What it boils down to is being a babe in the woods all over again!! Once you've been there before it just isn't as much fun as the first time around. Especially when your time is getting shorter. Better stop there before we slips into whining.

Thanks jt... appreciate the link. Got time to change things before Black Friday so that's the intent on any info I dig up. I look at the two systems as being complementary, one in front regulating the bolt cycling and one in back at the receiving end so to speak. Now, that's recognizing all I've done is shot one, not work on one. That said I understood the buffer's primary purpose, other than attaching the stock was to adjust recoil and I suppose it could impact cycling too - hadn't given that any thought... In working with the guy on the phone he just said I only had the choice here https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m5-ar308/spare-parts/buffer-kits of the M5 'rifle' buffer as the length of barrel I wanted put the carbine choices out of the picture. Appears to be a misdirect then! And if its not the case, and the carbine is selected, are their recoil or timing issues to consider. I like some of the carbine stocks better, so input on trade-offs between the two would be appreciated.

Wish I could offer something but just put my order in last night for the upper and lower. Got a lot to learn compared to everyone here. This will be my first build. Shoot another venue altogether before this venture. Currently planning on a 20" 308 and hoping to read enough on the threads to limit regrets regarding all the rest of the components. Best Regards, John

Fun thread from you fellas. I'm in the OKC area. Been here since 1978. Got out of the Marine Corps in 76 and moved down from Idaho. Man I remember the night I pulled into town pulling my u-haul with my old ford. Thought I'd descended into the depths of hell. Sitting on a Marine Corps buddies porch at 10pm that first night it was still 95 degrees and found myself thinking "Lord, what have I done"? But the kids came, roots got established pretty deep and it wasn't till 1992 that I got back up north and bought some land. In O5 I finished a log home back in the Idaho Panhandle enough to move in and have been living there now about half the year. Odd life looking at a moose yards away from your window in one place and then back down to your cul-d-sac in Ok. But I get to shoot matches here in early spring and late fall and then roam the Northwest shooting matches from Cheyenne to Lone Tree in Montana during the summer months. For my cast bullet/vintage gun stuff I met an old gent down at the range south of Norman and he gave me a lot of mentoring for casting and reloading for the vintage single shots. I've had and M1A forever but now I'm venturing into the AR-10 world for the first time and I'm wishing he had some of that interest because once again I could stand some mentoring. I'll say one thing about Idaho and Oklahoma... at least they are both counted (for now) as the two most conservative voting states in the Union. So far the left wingers from California have targeted Oregon, Washington and Texas and have not yet overwhelmed or polluted the politics in my two states. Texas - look out, you are next. Hold the line boys... is all I can say. By the way, shoot a little down in Texas in April. Got some good friends down there I shoot with and they are good folks - till we talk football:-)

Little follow up: previously plunked down in the wrong thread:-) Well I ordered a 308 upper and lower from AERO yesterday so I guess "it begins". Got phone support sufficient for a newbe to populate my "wish list" to complete the build and hope to slip a lot of that into the "cart" as sales are published. Now I guess I need to start looking at tools necessary since having never built one before those are not at my bench presently. Regarding the components in my wish list, I'll still be doing some reading here to try and sift out recommendations. Seems the 20" barrel I'd like to have limits some choices on the buffer and Magpul stock choices from AERO but like I said I have a lot of reading to do. With something like 5,000 bullets to cast and loading for next year's BPCR and BPTR shooting season to accomplish this winter & early spring should be an interesting exercise in managing time spent towards each.

jeeze… how I got here I'll never know... that post was supposed to go on my introduction thread. Go figure. Another old guy dangerous on the forums by virtue of ineptness.

Well I ordered a 308 upper and lower from AERO yesterday so I guess "it begins". Got phone support sufficient for a newbe to populate my "wish list" to complete the build and hope to slip a lot of that into the "cart" as sales are published. Now I guess I need to start looking at tools necessary since having never built one before those are not at my bench presently. Regarding the components in my wish list, I'll still be doing some reading here to try and sift out recommendations. Seems the 20" barrel I'd like to have limits some choices on the buffer and Magpul stock choices from AERO but like I said I have a lot of reading to do. With something like 5,000 bullets to cast and loading for next year's BPCR and BPTR shooting season to accomplish this winter & early spring should be an interesting exercise in managing time spent towards each.

I’m in the Idaho Panhandle (Bonners Ferry area) from May-Nov when not traveling to BPCR matches. I leave for Oklahoma after Elk season. Also late to this game! When I started casting and reloading for vintage guns I was lucky enough to find a good mentor. Impossible to overstate what a help that was. Hope to find another if I decide to build one of these. Would still be valuable even were I to buy one outright. Currently interested in what I read about AERO Precision. Watched a video review (mrgunsngear) where he said he had a parts list in the comments. Danged if I can find how to access that “comments” section. Also hope even there to avoid any “promotion-driven” recommendations but that requires more education on my part. Only real time constraints would be making up my mind or buying parts before the next election cycle. I’m 65 so perhaps a little jaded about who “Americans” are capable of voting into office. Wouldn’t want to get in the tailwind of another Feinstein scare.

Sorry JF89, I can be slow on the uptake.

Guess a guy ought to. Say hello that is. Wasn't thinking to get on another gun forum but then again thought the .308 bug was at bay. Been shooting old levers and Marlin Ballards at long distance events/matches for a while and enjoyed collecting 100+yr old Marlins for the last decade but every time politics rears its ugly head I get the bug again. Last Feinstein time it was an AR-15 but I've been giving a little time to my M1A lately and peeking around on the web at the AR-10s. So hear I am now looking for a place to lurk and learn before I take the step this time. Looking forward to the reading and asking occasional guidance. John

Appreciate the input fellas. The terms and nomenclature will be my first to learn and maybe poking around for a schematic that shows components, as in what you'd by buying off the shelf with a build (or what you'd be selecting in a store-bought order) would be really helpful. And dang, sifting the wheat from the chaff with all the in the paid-for Youtube videos is tuff. I've learned a boat load about vintage levers, Marlin 1893s, etc, and Marlin Ballards, since I shoot BPCR matches, so at least I have that experience of digging to fall back on. Finding out what you no longer retain about the ARs in astonishing. I can still manage my M1A like it was yesterday but I guess I jettisoned the M16 stuff from my head. 47 years is a long time - and I was prejudice towards the .308 even at 18 yrs old! JF89... I said I Googled and included the key words. I was on Internet explorer. Not sure what else I can say. Search Engine,??wouldn't that be google?

Ha! Read “300 users and growing” on the first page then looked at the date! Googled “AR-10 forums” with the intent of landing right here. Shoot in other venues, have an M1A and cast & reload for dozen rifle calibers and on lots of gun forums but never on this trail. Just can’t shake the hankering so looking for a site to peruse before deciding the approach to take. Buying a ready made probably be smart given available time and lack of experience but don’t want to rule out learning what I would from building one either. But boy I’d have a ways to go to get spun up. Anyway, googled for a starting spot. Be interesting. Like the looks of the AERO Precision parts/platform!