Cliff R

I deer hunt with a 450 Bushmaster . Here's a doe I shot about 5 PM today, never took another step, and why I started shooting them a little further forward. Minimal meat damage, distance was about 90 yards.........Cliff

I agree completely, and I hate wasting meat more than anyone. However here in Ohio you need to put them down quickly during the gun season. Hunting pressure is heavy and early on I had several really nice bucks that I plunked right thru the good stuff make it far enough to get finished off by another hunter on a nearby property. That has NEVER happened since I started busting them thru the shoulders. About 20 percent of the time they just crumple right up where they were standing..... I also agree that Elk aren't that tough to kill. I've not had one make it over 50 yards shot with my 45/70 using 300 grain jacketed hollow points pushed by a full case of RL-7 (2400fps).....Most went down right where they were standing!........

Another quick note on shot placement. Until just a few years ago we were limited here in Ohio on what you could use for the whitetail deer gun season. Shotguns with slugs, muzzle loaders, and a few straight wall handgun calibers was it. Back in the 1980's I started using a S & W 44 mag for deer exclusively. I molded my own Elmer Keith SWC bullets as I very quickly found out jacketed hollow points aren't moving fast enough for reliable expansion on a deer. The first couple of deer I hit managed to go quite a ways even right thru the good stuff back of the shoulder and pretty well centered. Then I hit a few not so well centered and they made quite a trip before I found them. I decided to try moving forward and busting them thru the shoulders instead....bingo! They don't go very far at all, and can't remember one making it much more than 50 yards before they crumble up. The big SWC lead bullets bust right thru both plates and do a ton of damage along the way and hit enough good stuff in between for quick reliable kills. I've lost count how many deer I took with my 44 mag before retiring it when Ohio started allowing rifles with straight wall cases for deer hunting a few years ago. I moved to my 45/70 then to my 450 Bushmaster last year (added to the list). Headed out here in a few minutes to see if I can put some meat on the table with it........Cliff

Makes me wished now I would have some a bunch of that Lake City Match brass, used to have access to butt-loads of it........

+2, 3, 4 5 and 6 on shot placement when taking game. Same with anything else, it's the wound channel and how much damage is done along the way that kills, at least quickly. That is why I insist on weapons that make the grade for accuracy, and use good optics on them. Deer gun seasons opens tomorrow, just stepped out back and fired 2 rounds out of my 450 Bushmaster. Distance about 80 yards, not much of a rest, just laid over the gas grill on the back porch and touched off two rounds.....it always delivers.......Cliff

A 300 WM just about cuts a small whitetail in half, exit holes typically bigger than the bowl you had your soup out of last week. Does a chit-ton of soft tissue damage and ruins a good bit of meat if you care about messing much with the front shoulders. I still don't think you can kill one too dead, and good clean kills are better than hours of tracking. I've shot one deer to date with 5.56, went about 30 yards and toppled over. Not even that great of a hit, sort of quartering away and I hit back a bit too far, not to mention it was plain old 55 grain ball ammo, not a hollow point. My go-to gun here in Ohio for deer is my 450 Bushmaster. Not quite the killing power of my 45/70 but it's 100 percent weather proof and super quick back-up shots if needed (compact and lighter as well, plus DEADLY accurate. Don't practice with it much as ammo is a bit pricey, but it will put 5 rounds nearly in the same hole at 100 yards if the jerk behind the trigger does their part. Fired the group below back when I first put it together using factory Hornady ammo. Bore sighted, two rounds at 25 yards to zero, followed by two rounds at 120 paces high/right, the next 5 rounds just low of center. One of the most accurate systems I've seen without having to work-up a load for it.......Cliff

I pulled out some 308 brass left over from my range days with the M-60, keep in mind when you read this it was produced about 45-50 years ago. Tried to reload that tough ass chit and no dice. The primer pockets crimps were so deep I had to ream about 1/3rd of the material out of the way to get a primer started in them. I still smashed/folded up about half a dozen primers trying to get them in that crap. Even pulled out my pocket knife and tried to peel out a little more to help things out, not happening. Decided to order some NIB unfired WW brass instead and it loaded without any effort at all......FWIW......Cliff

Until I switched about 3 years ago to my 308 AR for out West hunting I carried a Marlin 1895 in 45/70 topped with a Leuopld VX III 1-4 power scope. Everyone else in our hunting party carried big Magnums, 7mm, 300 and 375, huge scopes, etc. I have recorded the most kills to date and nearly all of them have been less than 75 yards. In all the years hunting out there I've only had one long shot opportunity and decided to pass on it and work my way in for a closer shot. Two huge bulls came out of the timber about 500 yards above me and bugled and played around for a few minutes. I was tempted to take a shot but decided to work my way up to them and get under 300 yards where I knew it would be money for a clean kill. It was rough going and by the time I got into position they were gone. Even though I knew my custom hand loads were up to the task at 500 yards (300 grain hollow points backed by enough RL-7 to get 2400fps) and I knew the distance and the sight dope I'd much rather plow one at close range and be skinning rather than tracking. The next morning about 10am I shot a nice 6 x 5 at 35 yards. I think folks watch too many TV shows where they show Elk just standing around for half hour or so at long range waiting for someone to set up on them and lob a round into the kill zone and he doesn't go 50 yards. Long range shooting is risky. Even if you get on target the energy left isn't nearly as great and there is a risk of hitting a little too far back or forward and wounding the animal instead of a clean kill. Hunting is different than target shooting. We can't choose calm days, may or may not have a suitable rest, and the animals very seldom follow the play book.....FWIW.....Cliff

Nice! Man I like that hand guard. I've got one on my wish list to replace the monstrosity on the first custom 308 AR I built with an Alexandria complete upper. I'm also tempted to remove the barrel and shorten it some while I've got it apart or replace it with a lighter/shorter profile. It is HEAVY and poorly balanced, a mistake I made with my first build that I will not repeat........Cliff

I'm usually too tired to shoot one once I walk in a couple of miles, and then there's the having to pack it out deal. Hunting public land in Colorado for out-of-staters is a crap shoot anyhow. Not really much skill involved, you just need to go up high, and pack in a ways. Bagging a bull Elk on or near the access roads is like a winning lottery ticket....LOL.....Cliff

"I walk a lot with my rifles so weight is important to me. I am questioning the rifles not the caliber." Weight is also a BIG deal for me as I walk many miles on our hunts out West and almost always over 10,000' and carry a decent amount of gear in my pack. I went with a 14.7" barrel on my 308 AR in a lighter profile. I had already dumped over $1000 on a custom build without even thinking (or knowing) about how much heavier the AR-10 platforms are to the AR-15. I got the upper from Alexandria Arms and with an 18" barrel (heavier profile) and full length hand guard. Nice rifle, shoots well but I'd have to hire a guide to carry it for me, it is heavy and not well balanced. PSA offered an upper with a 14.7" light profile barrel with short hand guard and it's night at day difference, lighter and balance is much better. Also keep in mind with any barrel length and same profile, the bigger the hole bored in it the lighter it's going to be. I have an AR-15 Match Rifle here in 223/Wylde with a full length heavy barrel and it's a brute. I had thoughts after retiring in 2003 of doing some competition shooting but gave up on that idea so it just takes up room in the safe, to heavy and awkward to use for anything else......Cliff

There is really no such thing as "brush" busting when it comes to projectiles. Anything of significant size hit before the target will send it off course. I've missed bucks at close range with 12 gauge rifled slugs and .54 caliber muzzle loaders with HEAVY Thompson Center cast lead Maxi-Balls weighing over 400 grains in low light conditions because I didn't see a little sapling or small limb between us when I touched the round off. REAL bummer once after hiking up a mountain in the dark about 3000' and had a HUGE buck run up on me quickly at first light. Hit a little Laurel branch that I didn't see and clean missed him at 35 yards. To this day I think back about that hunt and can't believe that little tiny branch caused a complete miss. Anyhow, my vote is for 308. It's a very efficient round, readily available over the counter if/as needed, and scores of really good bullet choices. My "go-to" hunting load is the Barnes 175 grain bullet backed by Varget, around 42 grains nearly as I can remember. That load just flat shoots good in every 308 rifle I own, as well as the ones I built for my brother, nephew and son-in-law. Very few 5 shot groups have went out past 1" at 100 yards in all those rifles and not uncommon at all to have the first 2 or 3 rounds nearly in the same hole till things heat up some. I'd also mention that it's pretty "flat" out to 300 yards without any hold-over if you have things doped in at closer ranges and a reasonable mounting height above the barrel with your optics........Cliff

Thanks. I use PMC X-Tac 55 grain in that rifle. Actually most of my AR-15's group a little better with that than most of the "generic" stuff out there like American Eagle, etc. I've logged a few sub 1/2" five shot groups with it at 100 yards .....Cliff

One of my dedicated varmint AR-15's built on a Rock River lower has a PSA upper with a chrome lined barrel. I never even looked at it closely until yesterday as I was in the gun safe fetching my 22 bolt action rifle. The barrel is only 16" and stamped "5.56 NATO CHF 1/7". I've had it for quite a few years now, it's topped with a 4-16 Nikon with an AO. I can't ever remember missing a ground hog (or anything else) with it. CHF is some of the early Chrome Hammer Forged stuff they used to offer (they may still offer them but haven't looked on their website for quite some time). Couple of months ago I was set-up on a fresh cut hay field. Leaning over a big round bale one morning as the sun came up NOTHING moved for over an hour. Being a little bored I picked out a dead tree about 400 yards or so into another field, there was little if any wind blowing at all so a good opportunity for some long range fun. About 2/3'rd of the way up the tree was a dark spot, so I fired three rounds at it. I was just hoping they would be on the tree someplace. To my surprise when I got down there all three rounds were pretty close together but nearly 10' below the point of aim. I haven't been back over there with the rangefinder to get the exact distance but it's going to be in excess of 700 yards as it's 300 from the bale to the fence in the field I was set-up in. I attached a couple of pics below, my knife is stuck in the lower bullet hole, the second pick is from the upper field where you can see where the dead tree was located.....Cliff

Many thanks. I try to help out where I can. Keep in mind I'm sort of "old school" so much of my information may tend to be "dated" just a bit. My grand daughter also gets involved in the butchering process, she's quite a worker and a big help around here......Cliff

Vortex has really stepped into this game pretty hard. A good friend of mine who passed recently was a big part of their success. He represented them thru his business here on the East Coast. I tried a couple of them out on lesser quality rifles that I own as mentioned, good quality for the money. Even with that said there are a lot of lesser name optics on the market that make the grade and get raving reviews, so it pays to shop around some. For me It's still tough to move away from Leupold as they have proved to be worth every penny on the dedicated hunting rifles I've used out West for the past 3 decades or so. I've lost count of the HARD falls I've taken, a few right on the rifle or the scope but I usually try to save them vs myself! Never had one deviate even the slightest from zero no matter how much abuse they've seen.......Cliff

Not all mounts are created equal when it comes to scope mount height for the picatinny rail. Optimum is the lowest one that will clear the objective or basically place the center of the scope closest to the center of the barrel. The higher the scope is mounted the steeper the angle the bullet has to take to cross the line of sight. This can make for interesting mid-range trajectory with some set-ups. Vortex for the most part makes pretty decent scopes. I have two of them here, one diamondback and a cross-fire going from memory. Despite not being the higher end viper variety they have super clear optics and no issues with either one to date. Even with that said my dedicated hunting rifles for our out West outings get topped with Leupold's (older VX-II and III's), but it even appears now that they are wondering into the lower end market......Cliff

I replaced that POS screw on piece of pipe on my 450 Bushmaster with the one in the pic. It's not as light as the one pictured above but not too bad. It's was also one of the fuel I found (about a zillion available) made in the USA. Paid a bit more for it but no regrets........Cliff

Good read! What some folks doing this sort of thing don't realize is that the quality of your parts does make a difference. Each part for a Military grade weapon is built to a Mil-Spec. I used to get into the Mil-Specs some when I was on Active Duty and it amazed me at that time how even a tiny little lock washer had nearly a full page listed for it requiring it to meet a long list of specific specifications in order to be on the selection list for Government purchase. One thing I've noticed about AR's in general, especially AR-15's is that chrome lined barrels and chambers have almost become a thing of the past. Companies are advertising "nitrided" barrels (or no mention at all if and what they are lined with), which isn't even in the realm of reality close to chrome plating. Nitride basically forms a better surface as far as hardness and improved wear properties, bit it does NOT inhibit rust and corrosion like chrome plating. Pretty important stuff if you are interested in "running" your AR pretty hard for multiple outings and no plans of cleaning it. When I first started building AR's I looked for and insisted on chrome lined barrels/chambers. I wanted Mil Spec as well but that proved to be difficult and confusing. I also built most of mine with the later 5.56 designation and 1-7 twist. These days to be price competitive companies aren't offering the better barrels and often you can't even tell what if any surface preparation was done to them to prevent rust/corrosion. Then you have folks argue that chrome plating kills accuracy so they shy away from them. I woln't get involved in any of those arguments but for sure I build almost all of my AR's with chrome lined barrels/chambers. Stainless steel is another popular option, but stainless does not have the same properties nor does it completely guarantee that they will not rust. I've seen plenty of stainless steel parts over the years develop rust, black spots, and even pit out when left exposed to moisture and other chemicals for long periods of time. Cripe I just pulled out my stainless steel hunting/skinning knife and saw yesterday to process a nice 9 point buck and my saw (put away without a good cleaning and drying last season) is rusted pretty badly on one side. The rust came off with steel wool but left permanent black spots/minor pitting on it. Good new for all of this is that I've built several AR's with lower end barrels and guess what? They run just fine and to date I've never had the first issue with any of them. Can't say as I've ran 14,000 rounds thru one yet w/o cleaning, but we have had some pretty long range days shooting many hundreds of rounds and to date none of the lower end builds have given us the first problem in any area.....Cliff

WAY back in the 1980's we still had quite a few early M-16's left over from the Vietnam era. They had the early sights you have to use a bullet to adjust, and some didn't have forward assists. Since they were training weapons no big deal, we cleaned them after every range day (actually the students cleaned them) and they were kept in perfect working order. Everyone once in a while we would get a servicewide message to expend certain lots of ammunition for one reason or another. I loved getting those messages because it called for a range day with the M-16's and most of the shooting was done on full-auto. We'd load stacks and stacks of magazines and start expending the ammo on full auto. Usually thru just one or two weapons taking turns and having a few competitions to see who could put the most rounds on target. At some point the barrel and hand guard would get so hot we'd have to wear a glove. I can't ever remember a malfunction with any of those early M-16's, even with us running scores and scores of full magazines thru them on full auto, and those weapons were early versions and typically not dubbed as reliable as the later A2's and M4's. Looking at it from a civilian standpoint and not having full-auto (well at least most will not) I don't see a flaw in the basic direct impingement system right to start with. They work, and work well, and not known for reliability issues right to start with. It's still a "closed" system and no moving parts to clog or get all fouled up aside from eventually I suppose the gas tube could get restricted if you ran it for many outings without cleaning it, but I've never seen this happen to date and most of us clean our weapons after range days......Cliff

The "fundamentals" don't really change for type of weapon. For handguns and no rest "anticipation" in the biggest enemy for the shooter even if they are doing everything else (sight picture, breath control, trigger squeeze, etc) correctly. All shooters to some extent anticipate the shot. We used to call the "now" shot on the range when training. Do everything right, and right at the moment as you increase pressure on the trigger somewhere in between you tell your finger to fire the shot "now", instead of letting the steady rearward pretty have the weapon going off as complete surprise to you.. The worse your "now" shots combined with "jerking" the trigger and fighting the recoil, etc, the lower and to left or right (depending on whether you are left or right handed) your shots will end up. Classic example of this is that when I sight in a handgun for someone, especially bigger calibers with butt-tons of recoil, my shots will almost always hit WAY higher on the target than theirs will. How does that happen? As the weapon fires recoil raises the barrel, the harder you are fighting recoil/anticipating the shot the lower the rounds will hit on the target. I don't fight it at all, and every single round comes as a complete surprise, so the rounds/group will be considerably higher when others shoot the same weapon from the same rest that day. For rifles, especially with optics you can get all locked-in and settle yourself down to where about the only deviation you'll see is the cross-hairs "bouncing" ever so slightly with each heartbeat. I try not to put any pressure in any direction out on the hand guard/fore end of the weapon even if they are free-floated and just let the weight of the rifle sit on the rest, sandbags, hay bale or whatever you are shooting across. Any pull or holding on that end can and will effect bullet placement on target and group size as the bullets just don't instantly leave the barrel and anything you do during the period of ignition and bullet exiting the barrel still has some impact on bullet placement on target. Of course it's a much lesser extent with rifles as velocities, barrel exit time and rise and not near as great as with a handgun. Anyhow, enough off-track stuff. For the OP's questions I'd go light, high quality, and shorter if it's a hunting rifle and the majority of your shooting isn't going to be from one side of the mountain to the other......Cliff

If the rifle is for hunting I'd go with the shorter/lighter profile for sure. I've built half a dozen of these rifles to date in several configurations and they are HEAVY compared to AR-15 builds. For my dedicated hunting 308-AR I ended up with a 14.7" (pinned/welded flash hider) in a lighter profile. It goes across the scales at 10 pounds and I've logged multiple rapid fire 5 round groups at 300 yards inside of 4" just leaning agains the truck or over a big round hay bale. On the bench it will easily toss my 3 our of 5 rounds from my hunting handloads well under an 1". It seems to heat up just a tad with repeating shots and the group "grows" slightly, but an Elk or deer will never know as I don't plan on missing with the first round! Something seldom mentioned on here is that folks just seem to automatically think that a weapon will be accurate and shoot great groups when built with good parts. Then when they see groups that look like a shotgun blast at 100 yards (for example) it is automatically assumed the weapon has some sort of flaw, like a cheap barrel. I am "hired" by everyone in our hunting party that goes out West to sight in all the rifles. The groups I shoot are considerably smaller than anyone else in the group will achieve with the same weapon/ammo. This simply happens because I shot High Power matches for years and spent 20 years in the Military as a small arms instructor. I do all the basics the same for each round and I don't flinch, jerk, or anticipate the shot. I'm not patting myself on the back here, just pointing out that shooting skills are learned, and the expertise from one shooter to another can vary dramatically. For the most part you just can't grab a rifle, get locked into a rest and start shooting all the rounds into a dime at 100 yards even if the weapon is fully capable of that kind of accuracy.......FWIW......Cliff

Good news. Any pics of how they look after assembly? I was ready to do the same thing with one of my builds but was able to locate the correct length pins in the right diameter plus I don't have an effective way to "black" them other than paint or a magic marker.......Cliff

+2 PSA offers decent AR-15's but they have been pushing the "low end" rifles and parts pretty hard in the past couple of years, low price/high volume sales has pretty much become the main stay for them. I grabbed up some of their low cost complete uppers with the nitride barrels and a couple with stainless barrels. They run fine but none of them meet my criteria in the long range accuracy department. They just do OK and would be fine if you are just plinking around, but certainly nothing to spend a lot of money on for optics and accessories to make a varmint rifle out of....IMHO. They obviously didn't put a lot of effort into the PA-10 and it appears they tried to come in under the current market prices to get higher volume sales instead of producing a better product. They also spent some time with the AR-47. I bought one of the early offerings and it showed up with the wrong firing pin in it. The pin was too short and didn't hit the hard imported ammo primers hard enough to run well. I modified the pin in my lathe to get it to work well and notified them. Without any grumbling they very quickly sent me the correct pin and good to go. So customer service went well, but I'm not sure how they are handling the PA-10 issues, and their seems to be a lot of them.......Cliff

Cool chit there Magwa.....nice job! The area I hunt in Colorado is so thick 80 yards would be a LONG shot! I still take my 308 AR instead of my 450 Bushmaster (much lighter) or one of my 45/70 Marlin's because there is a remote chance I might get a really long shot on one and I don't want to be throwing mortars at him. I'd really like to try another area. We were locked in for quite a few years in the Gunisson area and long shots were common, then lost our ride (Outfitter retired and son took over. He wanted to "modernize" the business so basically going to charge us 5 times as much for the same thing). This new area is Public hunting land and so thick it's like being in the jungles of SE Asia, you'll smell more Elk than you will ever see.....Cliff