Gibbs

My LGS had freebie "Basic Reloading Manual" put out by Hodgdon. After reading this (above) I looked into the manual and found loads for 168 gr SIE HPBT using Titegroup and Clays, starting at 8 grains each with a vel of 1080 for Titegroup and 1060 for Clays. Above that spec for the 168 gr SIE HPBT was 150 gr Nos BT and it had Trail Boss listed at 14.0 grain to start and a velocity of 1417 fps 27,100 PSI pressures. I also found that on line at www.hodgdon.com in their load data section of their web. I would think lead cast and resized bullets would be very useful for low velocity loads and one should always be able to find some sorts of lead from various sources.

Something I read in my Lyman's reloading book... 7.62 X 39 was (by them ) NOT considered an accurate round, regardless of what it was shot from, auto, semi auto or bolt action. I too had a .223 AK, and it was very accurate with the right hand loads. I converted the SAIGA from that goofy import stock to something more "usefull". I also had a SAIGA in .308 that was darned accurate as well. Again, both were AK, but both were not the 7.62 x 39. I even had difficulty with a Ruger Mini 30 I had to get any kind of decent groups out of it some years ago. Here is a picture of the SAIGA in the .223 before I sold it. Look REAL close at the dust cover and you'll see I put a car door protector on it at that spot and it reduced the big dent that was very common in my .223 SAIGA and my .308 SAIGA. That dust cover is the main culprit of damaging brass. I learned this over at the Saiga forums a few years back.... and the fix for it. It did pretty well at groups for an "AK"

Great read 98Z5V ! I saved it in several spots on my favorites and will print it an put it in my reloading binder. It give me an idea that if things went to hell, a major nuclear war, object striking earth, where life as wel know it, this info might be really useful. A pound of Red Dot or my Titewad powder for my .45 ACP would go a long way at reloading with cast lead bullets when nothing else would ever be available. I can see it having multiple applications, but survival would be an excellent reason. Subsonic does not mean not deadly. Many a rabbit and other small game has been gotten with the lowly .22 CB short. Hell, I even killed pigeons one time with my home made blow gun, and that defenitely is sub sonic.

I've got an Adam's Arms piston on my 6.8 SPC2. Works pretty nice, and again, I think it is just a matter of preference of where the gas and cleaning is, or has to be done to more attention. I have wondered about why Adam's Arms has not done one for the .308 myself. The M14 has a piston, the AK-47 has a piston, and I had a Saiga in .308 that I converted into (back) it's original pistol grip configuration, and it had a piston and worked (AND SHOT) great. Might I suggest something... The carrier/bolt is in fact the piston on the rifle and the gas is just diverted to it. In a gun rag I was reading about the new book "The NEW AR-15 Complete Owners Guide" by Dr. Walt Kulek. One of the things said int he "fact check" was that "the term Direct Impingement" is incorrect. The correct term is "balance-pressure internal piston". This is because the gas is dumped through the gas key into the interior of the bolt-carrier assembly, where the gas expands to push the bolt forward as the carrier begins it's rearward motion. " That is a quote from the magazine and it took me reading it a few times for that concept to sink in. Apparently, if I am understanding it correctly, the gas enters into the bolt area and those gas rings seal up the gas and at one instant they push the bolt forward toward the shell, thereby relieving some pressure so that the carrier can cam the bolt open and send everything to the rear of the rifle. Is this correct in what I conceive it to be? If so, pretty ingenious to complete 2 separate tasks with the same amount of given gas. So really, is the bolt and carrier acting like a piston in this regard?

Can you load low enough to shoot subsonic in .308 AR and hit a water jug and recover the bullet for examination of the lands and grooves? I've recovered bullets shot into snow during the winter (normal high veloctiy loads) and found them after snow melt on top the ground and except for just the very tip, pretty pristine. My loads shooting into water/dirt is not an effective way to recover a nearly intact bullet.

Just for those interested I used CCI LR Magnum primers for this load (which is at the given maximum per Hodgon online manual). No major pressure sign indications. The primers are still rounded on the edges, and cases are not overly expanded toward the base. I use one primer, CCI #250 on all my .308 loads and use the CCI SR Magnum primers, #450, on my 6.8 SPC2 handloads as well. The Hornady 150gr Interlock is their # 3031. So far, they are shooting better than the BT version 150gr, #3033. In theory they (boat tail) should shoot better, but I've had that happen years ago on a bolt action .223 that loved flat base bullets over boat tails.

This is using new Hornady Match brass and CCI LR Magnum primers with 44.5 gr of IMR 8208 XBR powder. Case is not 2.800 but around 2.776" OAL. Bullet is the Hornady 150 SP with the flat base. Used a LEE factory crimper on the bullet. This is the 2nd time in one week where the group is under .4" at 100 yards with this load. Today it was a good day. 0.300" center.

Older thread but I'll post just to add that the AK .308 I had was one hell-of-a-shooter. I handloaded for it, and learned to put a car door jam (piece) in the dust cover to prevent dinging the brass so bad. I shot a group at 100 yards one time, near dusk at a make shift target of a magic marker dot on a used Pizza Hut box. Using factory ammo it did real well! It had a 3 lug design, different than the 7.62 X 39 and .223 Saiga I had. It was a Saiga I converted back to more AK configuration... sort of. and how the rifle looked before I sold it.

Here in SW Michigan ALL kinds of powders, primers, bullets, cases abound. shibiwan have you tried it on .308?

I use CCI LR Magnum primers on my .308 Winchester and also SR Magnum CCI primers on my 6.8 SPCII as well. They provide better ignition and I have loaded up some pretty stiff loads in 6.8 SPC with the magnum primers and no issues. In fact, a long time friend of mine that reloads 100x more than I do, asked me one time when I was shooting BLC-2 why I wasn't using magnum primers as they were needed for quick burn on the harder to burn ball powders. I've reloaded to 1/2 gr past the max (according to Hornady) on my 150 and still don't show very much pressure signs on my 150 gr SP flat bottom Hornady with IMR 8208 XBR powder. I haven't used regular LR primers in several years of reloading. Let me explain what my friend told me as I had asked him a reloading question. I was experiencing a lot of smoking necks indicating the powder blow by. It was on a .223 load and I was using BL-C(2) powder. Jim aske me if I was using magnum primers, and I said "no". He said to stop using regular SR primers on my 223 loads and switch to magnum primers as they are needed to ignite ball powder fast enough to seal off the case neck so it doesn't blow by so bad. I switched to magnum and never went back. Have shot some great groups using manum primers both in the 6.8 and the .308 as well.

You can find some load data from Hodgon and Alliant online for your loads.

Yep, brass can be a real stickler for downrange consisten hits, like 98Z5V said. I've loaded Hornady new Match grade brass and found a nice load, and once it's fired, oftentimes all bets are off on the resized brass and same powder/primer combination. Different manufactures of brass are very close to each other, but often different in some very minute way to make what happens in a millisecond count. I'f shot SSA brass in the 6.8 and the loads that were accurate for it were not accurate when I moved to other mfg cases.

Shell holders are not that expensive and easy to "hone" down a bit, so if you screw it up, spend a few bucks and get another shell holder. Die's are hardened and would be a nightmare to try to hone down properly and if you mess up one of them, they are not just a few bucks like the shell holders, so I only work on shell holders and then it's "try and see". The part that I work on is only the top, IE that which contacts the die. This allows the shell in the holder to be pushed up just a few thousands more than it otherwise would.

I ran into an issue the other day using my LEE .308 FL dies resizing my once shot Hornady brass, and the empty resized brass had a very hard time chambering as well as extracting. Had to use a rubber mallet to tap and remove the brass. Got an RCBS SB dies set locally and tried it and still had some difficulty getting the resized brass out of my DPMS chamber. Might be a tight chamber. What I did was something I did for my 6.8 SPC when I had that issues going from one barrel to the other. I took the shell holder and put it in my lathe and took off about 0.004" of the top face. That allowed the shell holder to go about that much tighter against the die and also pushed the case up that much further into the die. Voilà, worked like a charm. The new resized brass now chambers as it should and more importantly removes as it should. On order is a Lyman .308 Case Headspace Gage so when it arrives I'll have to check the resized brass with the gage for specs. OAL in my Lyman book says 2.005 trim to length. SAAMI new case dimensions as 2.015"

For a crush washer I took a regular crush washer, dremeled out the center some for more clearance then bent it a bit in the vice. Then when I put the flash suppressor on and tighten down, I can control where it needs to be fairly well and the bend in the metal keeps a solid torque on everything so nothing loosens up.

Grew up on a ranch SW of Crawford (69 county plates) and graduated from Garden County High School (77 county plates) and lived in Oshkosh for a while working as a Deputy before moving to Michigan to be an Associate Winemaker near Fennville. Live now on 10 acres with my own shooting range, but miss that part of the world (Nebraska) Some forums I'm known as AKsarben, which is Nebraska backwards.

I've had good dealings with Bud's Gun shop as well. Midway USA is TONS better than Cheaper Than Dirt.

Well, kind of figuring someday, since I'm 61, I might use it for deer hunting. My 6.8 SPCII is very capable of that, but I thought it might be nice to shoot and punch some holes in targets, work up a load or two and have fun with it.

I certainly did not just join this forum to piss people off. I'm not a troll and since I just bought a DPMS LR 308, I thought it might be interesting to join this forum. I never said that Hornady, nor Sierra and their Match King, nor Speer, nor any of the other very reputable bullet makers are putting out imperfect bullets. In fact, they are probably the best there is out there, bar none. However, what's in the box, and what leaves the barrel are sometimes two different things. Is it not possible that perhaps a barrel with imperfections in it's bore, perhaps deeper lands on one side than the other, or any multitude of other little discrepancies, can change the shape of the bullet as it leave the barrel? A once perfect bullet can be squeezed and have grooves cut into it's copper surface that may impart a small imbalance in it overall. Is that not possible? And longer bullets tend to be heavier bullets for a given caliber and often need higher spin to get and keep them stable out there for distances. Isn't this true?

According to this link, http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/08/foghorn/ask-foghorn-barrel-twist-and-which-is-right-for-your-ar-15/ bullets have imperfections that higher RPM, through twist rates, help to negate.

Well, the more I dug the more I found that my argument of faster twist increased chamber pressures. Appears it is very very minor. Twist stabilizes longer bullets as they need faster RPM to prevent tumbling or spiraling effects due to imperfection in the bullet. Shorter bullets, like the 150 Hornady SP (flat bottom) I found to do so well, can be stabilized very well with 1:12 twist, but for heavier (translates to LONGER) bullets, a faster 1:10 or even a 1:9 twist is preferred. A 1:10 can stabilize 168gr pretty well and might get by with the 175gr but the 190gr or 200gr SPBT would definitely benefit from 1:9 or even 1:8 twist. The bullet is instable from the point of the base wanting to be in front of the point, and only through sufficient RPM can the gyroscope effect keep the bullet stabilized nose first in flight. I have read that your best rate of twist is the slowest you need for the bullet you plan to shoot, for optimum accuracy. GOOD links: http://homepages.solis.co.uk/~autogun/ballistics.htm http://68forums.com/forums/showthread.php?27991-6-8-SPC-and-Twist-Rate/page5 , http://www.frfrogspad.com/intballi.htm , and http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/08/foghorn/ask-foghorn-barrel-twist-and-which-is-right-for-your-ar-15/ Magwa is absolutely correct. There is much more to rifling and twist. New brass makes a difference as does brands of brass. How close is the bullet to the rifling? How much freebore does the chamber have? What is the optimum burn for this barrel / bullet combination? What is the best charge for barrel harmonics and nodes? That last is a WHOLE new set of circumstance that contribute greatly to rifle accuracy (barrel harmonics, nodes and shock waves that go back and forth up and down the barrel during the time the bullet is in the barrel). I think I'll stick with a nice mid length gas system, perhaps a 416R steel and 5R button rifling that is available from Brownell's. It's a nice 1:10 twist and should be a nice barrel easy on the brass and easy on the bolt.

Glad someone paid attention! LOL Don't know what I was thinking of on date of 2018!! It will be edited to reflect the right date of 2014 that's for sure. Thanks for the catch!! I'll dig you up some info on the twist rate and pressure correlation. Just might take a bit. :)

Thanks for the compliment, Wash! :)

Some info that might be found to be useful :) http://bisonballistics.com/articles/barrel-twist-and-bullet-stability Understand that this next link is dealing with 6mm Bench rest. http://www.6mmbr.com/barrelfaq.html what was interesting is that they talk about using the slowest twist that stabilizes a bullet. A 1:7 twist and a bullet traveling 3200 fps will give a rotational spin of somewhere near 329,142.86 rpm. ref: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/08/foghorn/ask-foghorn-barrel-twist-and-which-is-right-for-your-ar-15/ (read down to "Greg's reply ) I had a friend back in Nebraska that could hand load a 220 Swift so fast that you couldn't hit a target 50 yards away as the bullet would literally spin itself into little dust. It was hot after the friction of leaving that barrel and the RPM on it was so much that it literally spun itself to pieces in just a few feet. One thing I have always remembered, and saw examples one time in a gun magazine, was that the tip of the bullet was NOT as critical as the base. You could deform a tip and still get fairly good accuracy, but you could not deform any part of the base and get by with it. To prove the point, the magazine handloaded bullets, so that the base entered the lands first and the point of the bullet was in the rear. Horrible accuracy. :) I hand load and for now I have not found a particular powder, nor load for the 165 grain that gives good consistent accuracy, even though it is a 1:10 twist. Each barrel is different and when you find a bullet the "barrel" likes, pay attention to it and you can put out dime size groups all day long. This one seems to really like the 150 gr Hornady. I had a Saiga .308 that I converted back into the AK -47 style and was very surprised as to how well it liked the 150 gr factory ammo. This is a 5 shot group, shot near dusk. I thought it was not doing well until I went up to get the target. Simple Pizza Hut box with a black dot put on it with a magic marker.

Well, I don't think the real "Gibbs" would head slap me for inquiring on improving group sizes. I think they all do a fine job and it's kind of a Ford - Chevy - Dodge kind of thing. What one may percieve as BS, the other might find to be the best thing since sliced bread. :)