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Gas timing ?


Candid

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1 minute ago, Candid said:

No,  That is really not the interest.  That entire obsession is way to much tension.

I don't "think" the author has much interest in gas actuated autoloaders.

I'm going to have to LOL you on this too. The reason is that gas autoloaders aren't going to significantly change the physics you were asking about in terms of ONE HOLE. And you can surely adjust one way or the other if you missed the ONE HOLE accuracy. 

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1 minute ago, 98Z5V said:

Not at all - that's Density Altitude, and the effects it has on firing guns (bolt, gas, whatever) at different temps and altitudes and pressures...  I've posted about this, and the differences I'VE seen in my own gun's performances...   50 degrees to 113 degrees.  I posted about this recently, and the differences I saw at 850 yards, between those two temps, same load.  8.5 mils of drop at 850 yards at 50 degrees, 7.0 mils of drop at 850 yards at 113 degrees.   This was a recent thread that I posted...

Yes,  external ballistics.  Hot High and Humid.  There are many who know so much more on that topic than I.

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3 minutes ago, Candid said:

No,  That is really not the interest.  That entire obsession is way to much tension.

I don't "think" the author has much interest in gas actuated autoloaders.

The author was interested in as much accuracy as he could wring out of a rifle.  One hole, minimal disturbance...  

12 minutes ago, Candid said:

Smooth cycling, minimal disturbance, one hole, and two hours of pleasant range time....

I think that's what you just now re-stated your goal as?...  One hole, minimal disturbance?  I miss something?  Those are your words, right?

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2 minutes ago, Lane said:

I'm going to have to LOL you on this too. The reason is that gas autoloaders aren't going to significantly change the physics you were asking about in terms of ONE HOLE. And you can surely adjust one way or the other if you missed the ONE HOLE accuracy. 

LOL

 

I only shoot one shot at a time 😉

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1 minute ago, Candid said:

Yes,  external ballistics.  Hot High and Humid.  There are many who know so much more on that topic than I.

Well, then - for your stated "Internal Ballistics" questions - go find people that are experts on your "internal ballistics" - search for whatever you want out there, on the www...  Knock yourself out.

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1 minute ago, 98Z5V said:

The author was interested in as much accuracy as he could wring out of a rifle.  One hole, minimal disturbance...  

I think that's what you just now re-stated your goal as?...  One hole, minimal disturbance?  I miss something?  Those are your words, right?

Are you familiar with argument fallacies? 

 

The topic Started is available references on action timing for Stoner type auto loading small arm. 

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1 minute ago, Candid said:

Are you familiar with argument fallacies?

Nope, don't give a fuk about them, either.  Sounds like "Jumbo Shrimp" to me.  Oxymoron.

Have fun with your quest, though. 

Edited by 98Z5V
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1 minute ago, 98Z5V said:

Well, then - for your stated "Internal Ballistics" questions - go find people that are experts on your "internal ballistics" - search for whatever you want out there, on the www...  Knock yourself out.

Again,  I only posed the question,  If you don't have a relative contribution,  that is OK with me. 

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7 minutes ago, 98Z5V said:

Well, then - for your stated "Internal Ballistics" questions - go find people that are experts on your "internal ballistics" - search for whatever you want out there, on the www...  Knock yourself out.

I was hoping to find at least interested conversation here.  Perhaps Only Lane...  Are there no others?

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2 minutes ago, Candid said:

If you don't have a relative contribution,  that is OK with me.

He has a relative contribution, or 10; or 100. But you'll have to read first...

I know you didn't read those in full; because you didn't reply with a whole string of "What about....." questions. 

But yes. At the core of it. The initial question is about gas operation which is 100% internal ballistics minus the moments after the bullet left the barrel. And while there is still internal "activity" happening after the bullet is gone; the bullet has left the building before the action cycles. So; what do you really CARE to know about?

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There are others around here... But you'll need to come back with a list of new questions. There is a TON of research on both bolt, and gas operated guns. Focus those questions deeper. Try to find a niche that needs an explaination.

Your initial questions about speed can be informed by reading about OBT. Your questions about one hole will at least partially be explained by the Houston warehouse experiments. 

Edited by Lane
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28 minutes ago, Lane said:

Well you might not care as much about internal ballistics as you think you do. 

I've been pointed here in the past. But read up on OBT. Let me know what you think of that theory... That should solve most of your problems besides the smooth cycling. 

I am not familiar with the OBT acronym.    Organically bound Tritium?     😉

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12 minutes ago, Candid said:

I was hoping to find at least interested conversation here.  Perhaps Only Lane...  Are there no others?

You asked an initial 2 questions.  I answered them.  You, now, after this morph of bullshiit that you have created - are on your own.

I don't know the asnwers to the most recent rash of bullshiit that you've asked.  As your questions got more and more off track, I tried to provide you towards resources that could answer them.  In the end run, it seems that you don't want ANY answers to anything that you're asking, but you're asking off-the-wall shiit to try to prove how smart you are.

And, I posed that to you, too - go FIND the info that you're asking about, and post it back HERE...  With what you're asking, I can't help you - with how you've been here, if I had the information, I WOULDN'T help you...  If I knew where to find the bullshiit that you were looking for, I'd simply tell you "Google it...".

It's obvious that you only want to be combative, and just make up more to ask - and...  Google is your friend.  If you ever find it, come back here, provide links, and PROVE to everyone here how smart you are.  I'll welcome it.  Every day we learn something new, is a better day. 

Edited by 98Z5V
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I could link it if I had to try. You can find a discussion searching this forum if you want to see my previous reactions. I know there is a way to calculate them with QuickLoad (software). 

Optimum Barrel Time.

Refers to the the flex of the barrel, and the absolute moment in time that the bullet exits the tip. 

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Did we link that one before? I think not...

http://www.the-long-family.com/optimal barrel time.htm

http://www.the-long-family.com/OBT_paper.htm

https://thebloke.co.nz/lab-radar-obt-testing/#:~:text=OBT – Optimal Barrel Time,pressure wave) down the barrel.

https://pierrevanderwalt.com/obt-calculator/

Beware. I'm a firm believer that all calculators are going to be a "bit" off. By a few kernels of powder, really depending on the actual barrel you have.... But that's just my personal "feeling" on the matter. I've yet to compile proof either way. :soap:

Edited by Lane
scrubadubdub
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5 minutes ago, Lane said:

There are others around here... But you'll need to come back with a list of new questions. There is a TON of research on both bolt, and gas operated guns. Focus those questions deeper. Try to find a niche that needs an explaination.

Your initial questions about speed can be informed by reading about OBT. Your questions about one hole will at least partially be explained by the Houston warehouse experiments. 

I don't have a question about one hole.  It is just one of many desires.  Not the subject here at all.  as you wrote ,  focus.

 

So if I may restate, with focus

What is the relationship between gas actuation length  (vis Carbine mid and rifle) and the actuation time of the Stoner bolt and BCG in consideration of cartridge brass relaxation and chamber release timing.?  and... Is there any existing literature on the subject?     Simply...

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6 minutes ago, 98Z5V said:

You asked an initial 2 questions.  I answered them.  You, now, after this morph of bullshiit that you have created - are on your own.

I don't know the asnwers to the most recent rash of bullshiit that you've asked.  As your questions got more and more off track, I tried to provide you towards resources that could answer them.  In the end run, it seems that you don't want ANY answers to anything that you're asking, but you're asking off-the-wall shiit to try to prove how smart you are.

And, I posed that to you, too - go FIND the info that you're asking about, and post it back HERE...  With what you're asking, I can't help you - with how you've been here, if I had the information, I WOULDN'T help you...  If I knew where to find the bullshiit that you were looking for, I'd simply tell you "Google it...".

It's obvious that you only want to be combative, and just make up more to ask - and...  Google is your friend.  If you ever find it, come back here, provide links, and PROVE to everyone here how smart you are.  I'll welcome it.  Every day we learn something new, is a better day. 

Not sure where you are coming from

Let me copy and past the original posting topic

"

"Are there  authoritative references on the gas and bolt timing for the AR -10/ Ar-15 type actions?

Is it all trial by error?

I would like to better understand the timing as the expansive gas opens the bolt. "

 

The rest is based on the distracting responses.  Mostly your doing...

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2 minutes ago, Candid said:

I don't have a question about one hole.  It is just one of many desires.  Not the subject here at all.  as you wrote ,  focus.

 

So if I may restate, with focus

What is the relationship between gas actuation length  (vis Carbine mid and rifle) and the actuation time of the Stoner bolt and BCG in consideration of cartridge brass relaxation and chamber release timing.?  and... Is there any existing literature on the subject?     Simply...

Oh, let ME restate your original post, just so you know what you asked...  It's right here, below vvv

On 10/28/2020 at 10:24 PM, Candid said:

Are there  authoritative references on the gas and bolt timing for the AR -10/ Ar-15 type actions?

Is it all trial by error?

I would like to better understand the timing as the expansive gas opens the bolt. 

Rifle length, mid length. carbine length pistol length,  they all are able to work,  How?

Gas travels at the sonic limit , and is a function of temperature.  These "details" are of interest.

 

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To be frank. You can measure that with a microphone attached to your gun. But yes. There is certainly some research in that area. Even a high speed video camera would do a lot (since it has synced audio too). There are plenty of slow motion youTube videos even.

Since there are so many variables (including part fit, and absolute friction (the sum of all those)); you're not going to get a perfect fit calculator. Too many other factors too. Bullet fit in the barrel (amount of blow by), twist, barrel profile, caliber, amount of blow by in the chamber as the cartridge seals), etc. etc etc. 

The good part is, the timing on the bolt side is so LATE in the process you can "hear it all" in your own gun. If you want to add and IMU (gyro/accelerometer) that could help if you had some mechanical issues too... 

But I still don't know what you don't know, or what you want to know.

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10 minutes ago, Lane said:

I could link it if I had to try. You can find a discussion searching this forum if you want to see my previous reactions. I know there is a way to calculate them with QuickLoad (software). 

Optimum Barrel Time.

Refers to the the flex of the barrel, and the absolute moment in time that the bullet exits the tip. 

At this moment,  That aspect is not particularly significant to the inquiry.  I have studied the aspect under the discipline of harmonics.

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