sketch Posted February 28, 2017 Report Share Posted February 28, 2017 https://blog.silencershop.com/introducing-single-shot-trust/ if you dont have a trust this looks to be alil faster but still a trust. Or you can wait and see what happens with the laws conserning the nfa hearing act?? I gather there is less cost initally but for adding trustees its the same amout of work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COBrien Posted February 28, 2017 Report Share Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) Seems like quite a bit of work to solve a relatively minor problem. You just end up with a trust for each NFA item you own, and you have to keep up with who is a Trustee on each trust, i.e., adding a Trustee to each and every trust document any time you want to add someone. Or removing them from each and every trust if you want them removed. Honestly, how much work can it be to "track down all your Trustees" for the average person? I know where my wife lives. I know where my best friend lives. And, trust me, if either of them finds out I'm buying a can or FA, they're going to do whatever they need to to be able to legally handle/possess that item. Edited February 28, 2017 by COBrien Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sketch Posted March 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 I think its also about record keeping of you and your trustees info : prints and photos. One time deal? I have a trust. this is for a new investor to sell more silencers... the multi deal is the same $ as the og. Trust offerings. Wont be loaning my expensive can.....'s to anyone anyway! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COBrien Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 Preface: I am in no way recommending or suggesting anyone do anything that could be construed as violating or circumventing the NFA or BATFE procedures. I'm simply asking the question, as I have not yet done any research on this particular topic. Now, with that out of the way... My understanding is that you can add/change Trustees at any time and for any reason without reporting those changes to BATFE. Until it's time to add a new NFA item to the trust. Then BATFE must do a full "work-up," so to speak, on each Trustee. But, by that same logic, couldn't a person just change their trust and remove all other Trustees prior to adding a new NFA item, then just re-add the Trustees after the purchase? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sketch Posted March 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 ?? Hmm, not a leagel beagel here either.. but i did add to my trust as in if i die.. young! I have two people as benificiaries in my will and trust. They will have to perform the full gamment, as with guns to take possesion if i exit earth. I dont share when im kicking dirt! Hell my stupid state wont let me loan a gun to anyone with out paperwork! Id be calling silencer shop for this info or your lawyer for your state? Dont take this as leagel info from a guy named sketch on the interwebs some other nfa nerds chime in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COBrien Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 (edited) I don't mind admitting this in the Class III section (because not many people wander in here...), but I'm actually an attorney here in OK. Hence the disclaimer in my last post Lol! I've looked at the BATFE rules update (7/13/16), and it confirms that the only time they really care who the Trustees are is when acquiring an NFA item (I'm paraphrasing, of course...). Trustees can be added at any time without BATFE notification. Again, according to the new rule and the "Q&A" for that rule. I may just call the BATFE hotline and ask the question. Artfully worded, of course... Edited March 1, 2017 by COBrien Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sketch Posted March 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 Gf is a legal sec. but she has a limited info in her practice.. id be interested in your findings! Might ask my lgs also? Thanks bro! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rsquared Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 I could be wrong. But I was under the impression that all of the trustee's just had to file the fingerprint cards (as an individual would do) with any new purchase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sketch Posted March 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 2 minutes ago, Rsquared said: I could be wrong. But I was under the impression that all of the trustee's just had to file the fingerprint cards (as an individual would do) with any new purchase. New rules include photo.. but can you add or remove with out batfe notification? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COBrien Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 I believe you have to submit a Form 4 for the trust, plus a 5320.23 (including photo & prints) for each "responsible person" (for a trust, the Trustees). The 5320.23 is the questionnaire for Trustees. It's basically a 4473, from what I remember. Its my understanding that each of these forms must be submitted for each purchase. Plus a copy of the NFA Trust every time. But I could be wrong. I'll call BATFE in the next day or so and see what they say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COBrien Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 Here you go, gents: https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/final-rule-41f-background-checks-responsible-persons-effective-july-13 The Q&A for the new rule: https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/general41fquestionsandanswersupdated-6-28-16pdf/download That last one is a PDF. Look at the fourth question and answer there... Sure sounds to me like they don't want to know about Responsible Persons added after the purchase. I just don't know where they stand on RPs who are removed after the initial purchase and before a subsequent purchase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sketch Posted March 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 Delima. What would it cost to add and remove person/s each time.. leagely? I see that is easily a play on words.. but for what party? Id leave that alone for the time beeing? All this could be for not... one could hope! But might come to light also not in the Trustees/ RP bennifit? Im still not sharing! Nice pic of the rifle can? Thanks for the links bro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COBrien Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 (edited) Thinking about this some more... The process (at least in Oklahoma) for amending a trust requires a typed amendment to be executed in the presence of a notary. The amendment must be attached to the original trust documents (most attorneys attach amendments to the front -- multiple amendments will be attached in reverse chronological order, i.e., most recent amendment on top). Since a copy of the trust (and all amendments...) are required to be submitted to ATF with each Form 4 for the trust, ATF would be able to see the changes that have been made to the trust. While I don't think there's necessarily anything illegal about adding/removing/adding/removing Trustees, I bet ATF would smell something fishy and probably start asking some questions. Edited March 1, 2017 by COBrien Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COBrien Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 I just got off the phone with the ATF NFA Help Desk. The information I received was not at all what I expected. TL;DR Version: The new ATF rules regarding NFA trusts only allow the responsible persons on the trust at the time of the transfer to possess an NFA item. Adding responsible persons after the fact has no legal effect. There is currently no process to add responsible persons for a particular NFA item after it has been transferred. When purchasing an NFA item through a trust, the following forms must be submitted: 1. Form 4 for the trust, with the serial number of the NFA item listed. 2. Complete trust document, including any amendments. 3. Form 5320.23 for each responsible person listed in the trust documents. Now, here's the tricky part... The ONLY people who are legally authorized to "hold" (i.e., possess) an NFA item purchased through a trust are those responsible persons who submitted a Form 5320.23 with the Form 4 which transferred that item. Period. At this time, there is no way to add responsible persons for a particular item after that item has been transferred to the trust. For example, if I purchase a can through my trust (which only lists myself and my wife as Trustees), I have to submit a Form 4 for the trust and a Form 5320.23 for myself and my wife. If I then add my best friend as a Trustee (which I have considered) after the Form 4 and Forms 5320.23 are approved, he CANNOT legally possess that can without myself or my wife (i.e., the Trustees for whom a Form 5320.23 is on file) being present. I asked the gentleman if he knows of any rules or regulations coming down the pike which would allow responsible persons to be added after a transfer, and he said he hasn't heard of any. Of course, he hedged by saying that they are just now processing Form 4s which were submitted May-June 2016, so they haven't been presented with this particular problem just yet (because the law and rules changed effective July 13, 2016). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 On 3/1/2017 at 7:51 AM, COBrien said: There is currently no process to add responsible persons for a particular NFA item after it has been transferred. That's a bit of screwy logic, or careful word-smithing on their part, that completely screws the principle of the NFA trust in the first place. Only those that are ON the trust at the time of NFA-Item Transfer (i.e., stamp-approval time) are allowed to single-possess that item. So, if I have a grand-kid, and 21 years down the road, I want to add him to my trust - he can't touch shiit by himself, even though he'd be one of the Trustees... Fucked up... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COBrien Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 11 hours ago, 98Z5V said: That's a bit of screwy logic, or careful word-smithing on their part, that completely screws the principle of the NFA trust in the first place. Only those that are ON the trust at the time of NFA-Item Transfer (i.e., stamp-approval time) are allowed to single-possess that item. So, if I have a grand-kid, and 21 years down the road, I want to add him to my trust - he can't touch shiit by himself, even though he'd be one of the Trustees... Fucked up... Agreed. Like I say, though, the guy hedged a bit by saying "at this time" there is no way to accomplish that. When asked if it was coming at some point, he said he didn't know for sure. I would think they would have to provide for the possibility of additional RPs after transfer. Otherwise they're going to have lots and lots of people being prosecuted for breaking a law they fully believed they were in compliance with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sketch Posted March 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 Lgs just scratched his head and said call someone lol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTXshooter Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 Not to get off topic but I noticed that Form 5320.23 is for Form 1,4, and 5. Does anyone know if this is needed for Form 2 or what the requirements are? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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