Possible for extractor pin to walk out while bolt is installed in carrier?

[PNW_shooter]

https://imgur.com/a/VNWMmqT

 

I noticed something today while cleaning my .308s. The build I put together that uses a Faxon BCG and the extractor pin is relatively easy to remove for me during cleaning; just push down on the side of the extractor and the pin glides out with ease. When the BCG is all put together, I noticed that there is enough clearance for the extractor pin to be pushed out. I can do it with a punch and a firm but not-too-significant amount of force. Of course, with the pin protruding, the bolt can't be pushed back into the carrier. I looked at my LMT BCG and noticed that it was designed so that it was an physical impossibility for the extractor pin to walk out while the BCG is assembled -there's just not enough clearance. I also noticed that it's not possible on any of my AR15 BCGs either.

So now I'm wondering if there's something wrong with the design or manufacture of my Faxon BCG. It hasn't had a problem and has had about 300 rounds put through it without malfunction. Is this something you guys can do with your BCG? Please tell me the manufacturer and whether it's possible or not. Thanks.

[98Z5V]

Part of that extractor pin should be INSIDE the bore of the BCG, when the bolt is installed...  Maybe not much, but enough to make it a physical impossibility for it to walk out when installed in the BCG body...

[PNW_shooter]

1 hour ago, 98Z5V said:

Part of that extractor pin should be INSIDE the bore of the BCG, when the bolt is installed...  Maybe not much, but enough to make it a physical impossibility for it to walk out when installed in the BCG body...

That's what I think would be ideal. I've looked at pictures of other .308 BCGs and it looks to me like a lot of them allow enough clearance for the extractor pin to be completely exposed while installed and in the unlocked position though. I was curious what other BCGs people were running and if they also had this issue or not so I could decide which ones to buy in the future. It looks like the issue might be that the cam track in the carrier was machined a little too much at the front of the track, allowing the bolt to stick out just a hair too far.

[98Z5V]

1 minute ago, PNW_shooter said:

That's what I think would be ideal. I've looked at pictures of other .308 BCGs and it looks to me like a lot of them allow enough clearance for the extractor pin to be completely exposed while installed and in the unlocked position though. I was curious what other BCGs people were running and if they also had this issue or not so I could decide which ones to buy in the future. It looks like the issue might be that the cam track in the carrier was machined a little too much at the front of the track, allowing the bolt to stick out just a hair too far.

What do you have for an extractor spring?  More spring pressure would eliminate ANY chance of that pin walking.  Pics, of everything that you're talking about here, would greatly help what you're describing.  I get it.  I know what you're talking about.  Help the general conversation with pics of your setup, and what it's doing.

My Fulton Armory BCG will not allow the pin to walk, or the pin to be pressed out, when the bolt is fully extended.  It's blocked, partially.  And "partially" is all it takes.  I'll dig into the ToolCraft BCGs later.

[PNW_shooter]

1 hour ago, 98Z5V said:

What do you have for an extractor spring?  More spring pressure would eliminate ANY chance of that pin walking.  Pics, of everything that you're talking about here, would greatly help what you're describing.  I get it.  I know what you're talking about.  Help the general conversation with pics of your setup, and what it's doing.

My Fulton Armory BCG will not allow the pin to walk, or the pin to be pressed out, when the bolt is fully extended.  It's blocked, partially.  And "partially" is all it takes.  I'll dig into the ToolCraft BCGs later.

It has the factory stock extractor and springs. It's a spring within a spring with an O-ring. Not the most spring pressure, but it has gotten the job done without any hiccups so far. Doesn't feel like its slouching either as it does take some force to be able to push the extractor aside while its installed. There's definitely enough tension there to hold the pin and keep it from moving too much. Just worried about the non-zero possibility that somewhere down the road after many more rounds that things start to loosen up a bit more. This is on a relatively lightweight (for a 7.62) 16" carbine build that I'd like to be able to rely on.

 

I appreciate your effort. I was looking at Fulton and it looks like I could get a relatively inexpensive quality carrier only from them. I've had good experiences with Toolcraft also, but have only ever owned their AR15 BCGs.

 

Now for some pictures to illustrate what I'm talking about.

Extractor spring

 

When I pull the BCG out of the rifle, this is what it looks like, still partially blocked. (Above view)

Below view

 

However, if I give the bolt a little tug, I can get it to come out just a hair more, and now the extractor pin is fully exposed.

What I fear happening is the possibility of the pin walking out, since really at this point its only spring tension (and not a whole lot) holding it in place. If it walks out enough, it'll jam the rifle up.

It's actually possible for me to remove it without too much trouble while the bolt is still installed.

Maybe there's something wrong with the way the cam track was machined?

Edited February 14, 2020 by PNW_shooter

[98Z5V]

21 minutes ago, PNW_shooter said:

What I fear happening is the possibility of the pin walking out,

You're worrying about nothing.  You're creating your own worry, hypothetical this and that. You can second-guess everything about this platform, in a million different ways.  What you're worrying about is not going to happen in the real world, firing the gun.

Have you shot this gun yet? Go shoot the gun.

Edited February 14, 2020 by 98Z5V

[PNW_shooter]

2 minutes ago, 98Z5V said:

You're worrying about nothing.  You're creating your own worry, hypothetical this and that. You can second-guess everything about this platform, in a million different ways.  What you're worrying about is not going to happen in the real world, firing the gun.

Have you shot this gun yet? Go shoot the gun.

Yeah I do that a lot. I've only put about 300 rounds through this rifle, but no issues so far other than some mild overgassing that I don't mind. I'll keep at it.

How are those Toolcraft BCGs though, G2G? Looking at one for my next build, particularly the dual-ejector models.

[98Z5V]

24 minutes ago, PNW_shooter said:

How are those Toolcraft BCGs though, G2G?

Best in the business, by far. ToolCraft makes most of the OEM BCGs that you hear everything about.  They're ToolCraft.

Oh, by the way, stop worrying about nothing, stop creating your own hang-up dilemnas - you're only defeating yourself.  Spend your life second-guessing something else, and worrying about it -but don't second-guess what we tell you about this platform.  You'll only die worried. You're putting yourself into this "Naked and Afraid" category, worrying about the dumb shiit that you're worrying about.  You do you, though.  Take the advice - or just worry.

Edited February 14, 2020 by 98Z5V

[98Z5V]

27 minutes ago, PNW_shooter said:

Yeah I do that a lot. I've only put about 300 rounds through this rifle, but no issues so far other than some mild overgassing that I don't mind.

So, in that 300 rounds, has that pin walked out yet?  Nope. You think it might be overgassed - but what's your recoil system look like?  What are the specs on that?  What makes you think it's overgassed in the first place? 

[PNW_shooter]

22 minutes ago, 98Z5V said:

So, in that 300 rounds, has that pin walked out yet?  Nope. You think it might be overgassed - but what's your recoil system look like?  What are the specs on that?  What makes you think it's overgassed in the first place? 

Recoil system is an Armalite AR10 buffer spring in an extended-length (7 3/4") buffer tube. Right now it has a 6.7oz carbine buffer in it. I figured it was overgassed due to how it was flinging my brass. With an H3 buffer installed before I was getting 1 o'clock ejections, with cases occasionally hitting the front of the ejection port with hotter ammo. Ejector swipes were pretty bad as well. I put the heavy buffer in there and I get mostly 2-3 o'clock ejection with most M80 ammo. Steel cased ammo ejects at 4 o'clock consistently. I can live with that. 

[98Z5V]

What are the real-deal build specs on this gun? Spill all the details on this one, because you haven't yet.  List all parts, brands, manufacturers, whatever.  You need to out the details on what you built/bought. 

[98Z5V]

This is the WaterBoard shiit that I talk about so much on here. You need to damn near Water Board someone to find out what the fuk they built, just to find out what's going on with their gun.

Spill the details - every single part, by brand, manufacturer - on your gun. There's no other way to help you, if we don't know those details.  We're not fucking clairvoyant, here.  There's no mystical mirror that we can look into, and see your soul.

This is all "Garbage in, Garbage out" until you get the information out.  Spill it, give it all up - or just have a great day.

 

[jtallen83]

9 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

This is the WaterBoard shiit that I talk about so much on here. You need to damn near Water Board someone to find out what the fuk they built, just to find out what's going on with their gun.

Maybe we need a sticky to direct people to a list of the information needed to troubleshoot?

I agree it is a regular thing to have to ask again and a again. No offense meant to the OP, you are far from the first guy that didn't give all the details upfront, wouldn't expect a new member to understand the history of the board. 

Edited February 14, 2020 by jtallen83
punctuation

[RedRiverII]

It’s worth the effort and contributing to the sight helps us all.  Pics are a PITA for some.  Anyhow best of luck to you.

.,.

[PNW_shooter]

9 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

What are the real-deal build specs on this gun? Spill all the details on this one, because you haven't yet.  List all parts, brands, manufacturers, whatever.  You need to out the details on what you built/bought. 

 

9 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

This is the WaterBoard shiit that I talk about so much on here. You need to damn near Water Board someone to find out what the fuk they built, just to find out what's going on with their gun.

Spill the details - every single part, by brand, manufacturer - on your gun. There's no other way to help you, if we don't know those details.  We're not fucking clairvoyant, here.  There's no mystical mirror that we can look into, and see your soul.

This is all "Garbage in, Garbage out" until you get the information out.  Spill it, give it all up - or just have a great day.

 

 

5 hours ago, jtallen83 said:

Maybe we need a sticky to direct people to a list of the information needed to troubleshoot?

I agree it is a regular thing to have to ask again and a again. No offense meant to the OP, you are far from the first guy that didn't give all the details upfront, wouldn't expect a new member to understand the history of the board. 

 

16 minutes ago, RedRiverII said:

It’s worth the effort and contributing to the sight helps us all.  Pics are a PITA for some.  Anyhow best of luck to you.

.,.

 

Sorry, I was just concerned about the one part so I didn't think the rest of the build was so important, but here are the parts:

Aero Precision M5 Upper and Lower Receivers

Faxon Bolt and Carrier

Faxon 16" Pencil Barrel with pinned fixed gas block from AIM 

Strike Industries JCompV2 compensator

LMT extended buffer tube

Armalite AR10 buffer spring

PWS H4 Buffer (6.7oz)

Aero Atlas 15" handguard

RRA 2-stage match trigger

Here's also a little bit of slow-mo range footage of the ejection port of the rifle. I wasn't able to get good angles to show ejection trajectory since I had a relatively small shooting bench.

 

[98Z5V]

I just watched the video, and can't determine the issue here.  First, you look like you're 13 years old.  Not a slam, just an observation.  Are you worried about the ejection pattern?  Or are you worried about the brass being chewed up by the extractor?  Next, do you reload?  If you don't reload, then don't worry about it - as long as the brass is getting out of the gun, it's working (through a wide variance of ammo that you're using, every single time).  If you reload, and you're worried about the brass - then check the extractor first - sharp edges at the corners?  That chews up Grendel brass, on some suspect Grendel Gbolts.  That's the first thing to look at.  Something ejecting at 1 or 2 o'clock doesn't usually rip rims on cases. 

You being able to push that extractor pin out while the bolt is installed is an issue.  It's not one that I'd ever worry about, due to spring pressure - but I just checked a brand new .308 Toolcraft BCG that I bought today, and even with that bolt fully pulled out, I cannot push that pin out.  I can "nudge" it, but the BCG body stops it right there.  That's an issue.  But again, it's not an issue that I'd ever worry about. Shoot the gun.  If that issue ever presents itself, and the BCG doesn't close, you'll know exactly what it is.

[willbird]

I had a look at my Toolcraft, you could push the pin out with the bolt fully pulled out but it feels sort of like something encourages it to stay centered.

 

Bill

[RedRiverII]

Thanks bud.

[PNW_shooter]

18 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

I just watched the video, and can't determine the issue here.  First, you look like you're 13 years old.  Not a slam, just an observation.  Are you worried about the ejection pattern?  Or are you worried about the brass being chewed up by the extractor?  Next, do you reload?  If you don't reload, then don't worry about it - as long as the brass is getting out of the gun, it's working (through a wide variance of ammo that you're using, every single time).  If you reload, and you're worried about the brass - then check the extractor first - sharp edges at the corners?  That chews up Grendel brass, on some suspect Grendel Gbolts.  That's the first thing to look at.  Something ejecting at 1 or 2 o'clock doesn't usually rip rims on cases. 

You being able to push that extractor pin out while the bolt is installed is an issue.  It's not one that I'd ever worry about, due to spring pressure - but I just checked a brand new .308 Toolcraft BCG that I bought today, and even with that bolt fully pulled out, I cannot push that pin out.  I can "nudge" it, but the BCG body stops it right there.  That's an issue.  But again, it's not an issue that I'd ever worry about. Shoot the gun.  If that issue ever presents itself, and the BCG doesn't close, you'll know exactly what it is.

I was worried about the ejection pattern before, since an occasional case would fly almost straight forward and hit the front of the ejection port. That's been fixed with the heavier buffer and shooting ammo that isn't too hot. I do a bit of reloading and do save all my brass, but haven't gotten around to processing any 7.62 or .308 cases yet. From what I can see, I do have two spots on each of my cases that line up with the sharp edges of the extractor, but they're more like light scratches than they are gouges. I'm not too worried about this. This AR is much gentler on brass than my FAL is.

I've decided I'm not going to worry about the extractor pin anymore. One other user on here reported he could do the same with his Toolcraft bolt. I looked at my LMT BCG again and found that I could pull the bolt forward enough to be able to drive out the extractor pin with the bolt still installed in the carrier. There's definitely much more spring force on my LMT extractor than my Faxon extractor though, and it is more difficult to remove that LMT pin. I figure it's a non-issue.

[98Z5V]

   Keep us updated on how this thing is running. 

[PNW_shooter]

Alright, update. After comparing my Faxon bolt to my LMT bolt I could see that the Faxon's extractor spring tension was much much lower. I have to lightly tap my LMT's extractor pin out whereas the Faxon's pin can fall out by gravity just by pushing down on the extractor. Even though the Faxon bolt functioned fine I was still getting occasional erratic ejection, with cases sometimes still bouncing off the front of the ejection port.

 

I used a gift card to buy a JP enhanced .308 extractor, and wow, this thing made a difference. 1) The spring tension is much higher. It actually took some force to drive the extractor spring into the bolt. It's not going anywhere. If this is what a 308AR extractor is supposed to be like, then Faxon's springs are very underpowered. 2) My cases eject much more consistently with no more cases bouncing to the front of the ejection port. Surplus Korean always ejects at 2:00. XM80 and other M80 ejects at 3:00 consistently. Weaker ammo like PMC Bronze, Wolf, etc ejects at 4:00. Much stronger and more consistent predictable ejection patterns. In slow-mo it looks like the cases are getting flicked out of the chamber more forcefully instead of being pushed out.

 

Round count is at about 550 now and I completely trust this rifle.

[98Z5V]

That's good news, man  - thanks for the update.  How much did that extractor run you?

[jtallen83]

14 hours ago, PNW_shooter said:

and I completely trust this rifle.

 You can't just buy that at any price. I bought a pile of Armalite extractor spring kits several years back, like the JP a good stiff set-up. They have a cured a problem once but more important give me a high trust level on the part wherever I put it.