Oz

Wow... I just finished up a rant on this topic in another thread. I despise rear charging handles. In general, they SUCK for scoped AR platform rifles. These bulky handles help... but I don't like the look, the added weight and the additional chance to snag stuff. And the big handles don't solve the a core problem --you have to remove yourself from shooting position if you need to charge your rifle when you're in position. With a right side charge, you'll have to take your hand off the trigger, but you won't have to leave your position. No need to even take your eyes off your target. Just charge it. If you REALLY want to step it up, get a left side charger. You don't even remove your finger from the trigger. And if you REALLY, REALLY want to step it up, get a left-side non-ricopracting side charge upper. Yes, she is a lot more money. No, nobody at the range will likely have one. This is the upper I'm saving for. If you have some machining skills/access to a mill, you can put a slot in the upper and drill and tap your BCG for a knob. That's a great option. If you want a low/no cost side charge upper. Oz

I'm about to post up a bunch of stuff talking about how much rear charging handles SUCK for scoped AR platform rifles. You can get big ol' bulky handles to help... bandaid on something that needs stitches. Say you're all set, cheek welded to the rifle, all sighted in, ready to pull the trigger and DOH! You forgot to charge your first round. Reach up to that stupid charging handle, try to get your fingers under the scope, smack yourself in the mouth trying to maintain position and realize it can't be done. So you remove yourself from your position, charge the handle and then start over getting set for your shot. Opposed to a side charge upper. With a right side charge, you'll have to take your hand off the trigger, but you won't have to leave your position. No problem getting around your scope, no taking your eyes off your target. Charge it. If you REALLY want to step it up, get a left side charger. And if you REALLY, REALLY want to step it up, get a left-side non-ricopracting side charge upper. WOOOWEE! She's a beaut. Yes, you'll pay more. A lot more. But nobody at the range will probably have one. THAT'S the upper I'm saving for. Oz

Very cool. I want to add a .338 Lapua Magnum to my build list. Jestism over on WeaponsGuild.com is doing a custom lower/upper combo that will accommodate .338 LM. I posted this link in that thread for inspiration --to get 'er done! If you had an extra $5k layin' around, would you just buy that one, or would you still build one yourself? The decisions been made for me already, I was just curious. Oz

Brilliant <thumbsup>

I was just shown Black Hole Weaponry's website and am impressed. www.blackholeweaponry.com

Yeah, if you're talking billet, true. I guess I was looking to the forgings which are more efficient in their material use. I just hope Colfax can do a big run of forged .308 lowers. I'd like to stock up. I know their website says Mid-October before they have anything new to say. Colfax hasn't updated this thread in a looooong time. (July 26th.) Oz

MaDuce, I agree with everything -except about the .308 lowers being more complex. They use the exact same FCG/LPK's except for the bolt release, pivot and take-down pins. Some have a built in trigger guard I suppose... They do use a bit more aluminum. Maybe 25%? And you do make a more chips when machining, so there will be more machine time and tool wear. Wild guess, I'd give it a 25% cost difference just looking at that. I was thinking about this more last night and I bet the real difference is in economy of scale. If you price a 10,000 piece run of AR-15 forged lowers VS a 1000 piece run, the 1000 piece run is going to be WAY more expensive from the foundry. Until .308 lowers are being purchased in the quantities that AR-15 lowers are being purchased, they're going to cost more. Thankfully, you're also right that .308 AR's are much more popular. I think quantities are going up, so prices are going down. Oz

I've never understood why the .308 lowers have been so much more expensive than their 5.56/.223 little brothers. I always assumed it's a supply/demand thing. Anyway, I finished up a couple TM10 billet lowers after an extensive search for forged DPMS style 80% lowers. If you could come up with forged DPMS style .308 lowers near the AR15 forged lower cost, you will have accomplished something that hasn't been done before. I'd order some from ya! Oz

Well, Brownells cost on those parts isn't bad. Put's it on the bubble regarding buying a complete 308 LPK vs using an AR15 kit however.

I have an AR15 LPK I can use for a TM10 lower (DPMS) I just machined. I need to get the 4 308 specific parts however: .308 Front Pivot Pin .308 Rear Takedown Pin .308 Bolt Catch .308 Bolt Catch screw Does anyone know where to get those 4 parts cheaper than ~$9/each? I thought I saw them all together for $12 or so, but can't find where that was... might have been in a dream, I dunno. But if that's really the only price available, It's more cost effective to pick up a DPMS .308 LPK for $65 on Midway and save the AR15 LPK for another AR15. Oz

Yeah, I kinda beat around the bush on that one. Your trigger pull and your scope will probably have more to say about the grouping size -rather than the brass you're using ;D As long as the brass in consistent in size and weight everything's pretty equal. Lapua and Hornady make some highly .308 consistent brass. Federal gm is about as consistent too. I'm not kidding when I say that before hand-loading, all dimensions are checked and each piece of brass is weighed to ensure the group being loaded is all within a few grains of weight from each other. Oz

You're opening up a long-lived and lively debate. It's generally accepted that 7.62x51 has more brass (thicker) at the base. This increases strength and lessens the liklihood of an extractor ripping the base off. This happens more often with HK91/G3's/CETME's which use a delayed roller extraction system rather than gas. Those are BRUTAL on brass. HK's were my first foray into semi-auto 7.62x51 stuff, so I've read a lot about this. Along with the thicker, beefier bottom on the NATO rounds, they do hold a bit less powder. So for some loads, NATO rounds require the powder to be compacted a bit by the bullet during loading. Of course this is depending on the powder used... higher volume powders needing to be compacted more than others. So... more accurate... uh, meh. Sub MOA with NATO... no problem. Get some good once-fired Lake City brass, weigh it, size it, trim it, take care hand loading it and you'll out-shoot your .308 average factory load buddies. Get into real competition that requires the absolute tightest consistency and you'll have to go to match .308 brass like Lapua or Hornady. Those will give you an edge over Lake City. Oz

Just an FYI; if you're going to use the AR-10 blueprints on that website, the prints are for the Armalite lower. If you plan on using a TM10 80% lower, that is designed around the DPMS lower. Oz

I'm doing 2 TM10 80% lowers and those left hand charge uppers sure are tempting. Those independent charging handles put it over the top. How cool not having the handle move when it cycles. Thanks for the info! Oz

Nice! That's good looking too. Manufactured as a side charge AND left hand. It looks to have quite a premium cost, but it fits the bill nicely. I'm curious why they left the forward assist boss on there. Actually, that's probably a shell buffer, isn't it... Just out of curiosity, anyone else making them or is ASA pretty much the cutting edge? Oz

I'm pretty new, so forgive me for asking something that might seem obvious. I'm friends with a few of the guys from LAR Grizzly. Because of that relationship, I've watched their side charge OPS4 AR15 uppers develop and go to market and I recently bought one. I also picked up a 'regular' upper on another AR15 recently. I can't tell you how annoyed I am having to use the rear charger. The side charger is so much more convenient and ergonomic. I've done some research on the .308 AR's and don't see that the side-charge has really "taken off" as much as it has on the AR15 platform. There are at least 3 or 4 manufacturers doing side charge AR15's. Correct me if I'm wrong, but am I seeing that a few custom shops are basically modifying a 'regular' .308 AR uppers with a slot then drilling and tapping a charging handle in the bolt. Has anyone heard of any issues doing this? It's sounds pretty 'end user' doable with the right tools. Otherwise, I haven't seen many/any commercially specific built available options for side chargers out there, maybe one? Final question/thought... has anyone seen a .308 AR upper with a left side/ ambi charger? Oz

Word! I was sucked into the .308 world with a custom 24" Savage 10 BA build. That lead to a PTR 91 pistol (HK Clone) and then to a CETME and G3 kits. The CETME and G3 kits aren't even done and I couldn't resist the TM10 80% lowers. Good stuff! And this is the place to learn, that's for sure. Thanks in advance for all the help I know I'm going to get here! Oz

I love 7.62x51/.308 and I love AR15's. Make perfect sense to build something ;-) I just received two TM10 80% receivers so the search for info has begun. This site looks like an incredible resource. Oz

I know this thread is very old, but I just wanted to say thanks for posterity's sake, and let anyone else that's trying to machine a TM10 lower without the jig/template know, that this is the best information you'll find. And it seems good! Oz