bfoosh006

I will second the "brass cased for breaking in". Cheap surplus Berdan primed .308 / 7.62x51 ammo is everywhere ( online ) for 37-45 cents per round... https://ammoseek.com/ammo/308-winchester?ca=brass The Hirt. is better accuracy generally speaking.... YMMV

If you have any Turkish ZQI .308 laying around... use that. Dismal accuracy from all my .308 firearms... so much so that I have re-assigned it to just rifle break in. If you need to buy some break in ammo... I'd buy some Fed. XM80... maybe not the most accurate but it sure is reliable.

Ordered some of the CBC 168gr HPBT at 60 cents per round.... just slightly more then new "Ball" ammo. If it shoots ( accuracy wise ) somewhere between Ball and FGMM.. I will be happy.

Wow... pricey... but, my birthday coming up !! So feel free, everyone, to buy it now .. and gift it to asap !! ;)

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/magtech-cbc-308-win-sniper-ammo-168-gr-hpbt-308d-p-58717.aspx darn near as cheap as Ball....

The Criterion Barrel... I want to make a special notation about the quality of the packaging Criterion did... Outstanding will sum it up. Heavy Cardboard tube, bubble wrapped with plenty of spare on both the muzzle end and breach end, PlastiDip type caps on the breach end ( clear over the rim that makes contact with the receiver face ) and on the muzzle and that expandable plastic netting over all of it. Details count !!! The care taken in packaging, makes me think they really do take pride in their workmanship. Thank You Criterion Barrels. I have to say... if I knew which upper was going to be the recipient of the Criterion Barrel... I would probably stay up waaaay to late getting it installed.

Thanks guys.. I feel better now... Sketch, you made me realize not everyone would understand what I meant. Thank You. Updates... The D&H 20rd and 10rd mags feel much stronger the Brownells...they latch in better then the Brownells, needing only a normal slap, but do not drop free currently. I can feel a little feed lip spread when fully loaded, but not enough to hinder seating. They are not better fitting / sliding then the Magpuls or Lancers... So if you want some smooth sided fits all USGI M14 type mags... I'd use them. Hand cycled feeding was perfect....I think after the magwell wears in they will drop free better. The Brownells version of the Geissele reaction rod is "Ok"... I didn't bother to look at the overall length and you need to use a 1/2 drive ratchet to secure it... there is in no way, enough of the rod sticking out the ass end of the receiver to DIY grind vise flats and still engage the barrel extension locking lugs. And I was expecting a snugger fit into said locking lugs... the rest of the rod fits in the BCG channel perfectly The JP Universal Vise blocks are GTG... I would have preferred the blocks extend the entire length of the receiver, rather then one end or the other.

And boy howdy did it on the Carbine !!

On a side note... when I talked about trying so many different buffer weights and spring weights, I went as high as a 10.0oz solid buffer and a Orange .308 Springco 24.8lb ( opened/locked back ) ... the irony was all that heavy mass and heavy spring power did was move the nasty recoil to the front of the carbines breach ! Lol !! ( strong muzzle dip ) Just goes to show how tolerant the AR 9MM is !! In case some of you guys aren't aware of various spring weights... David Tubbs has that info for us. A2 (old) - 7.6lb closed, 14.5lb open A2 (new) - 9.1lb closed, 16.7lb open Tubb Flatwire - 10.5lb closed, 16.3lb open Tubb .308 Flatwire - 13lb closed, 16.7lb open SpringCo White ? (standard) - 8.3lb closed, 16.3lb open SpringCo Red (extra) - 10.5lb closed, 18.4lb open SpringCo Orange (increased) - 13.9lb closed, 24.8lb open The video is worth watching. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fMVZbrnvu8

"Bark and Blast" can be quite a bit in a Blowback 9MM... so the heavier spring helps "delay" the BCG cyclic action by milliseconds... and that cuts down on the "BaB" quite a bit. As well as keeping the action cleaner. The OEM buffer spring and buffer was cycling very fast, enough that it felt like it was gonna pound the buffer tube "apart"..changing over to the .308 Tubbs spring and a 7.5oz buffer makes the carbine much "softer" shooting. To heavy of a buffer and spring combo will result in "muzzle dip" and possible bolt bounce ( the heavy recoiling buffer and BCG will bounce off the receiver face, just like a steel hammer off an anvil ) ... so for most all Colt pattern and AR based 9x19's ( Glock pattern ) you will need to finesse the spring rates and buffer weight. The 9MM AR was an "after thought" adaptation design as opposed to a ground up build like a SIG or Beretta 9MM. Everyone that has fired my Colt Pattern 9MM loves it, it took quite a few spring and buffer weight combos to get to a pleasant shooting carbine. I will add... 125yd shots are VERY easy to shoot accurately with even just a 3 MOA Red Dot.... it is much quieter then a 5.56 16" and is very lite recoiling. And I can use it at the local "Action Range" so it makes for great manual of arms training. All and all.. it is a very fun carbine to shoot.

135gr, 147gr, and 158gr Federal, +P 135gr Tactical Bonded HP......1345fps.... Hornady, 135gr Critical Duty Flexlock......1130fps, very low ES 14 Hornady, +P 135gr Critical Duty, Flex. ....1225fps.. ES 18 Aguila, 147gr FMJ, FP..............................1140fps Armscor, 147gr FMJ................................1078fps Atlanta Arms, 147gr JHP "Major".............1348fps.. probably uses VV3N38, so this should be fast, and it was. AYSM, 147gr "Match"..............................998fps.... Browning, 147gr X Point.........................1122fps... 2 FTF... no bullet setback Browning, 147gr FMJ..............................1168fps... smooth as a sewing machine...and clean burning Federal, +P 147gr HST..........................1182fps Federal, 147gr HST.................................1124fps Federal, 147gr JHP "9MS".......................1132fps Federal, 147gr FMJ "AE".........................1084fps Fiocchi, 147gr FMJ..................................1078fps Magtech, 147gr JHP...............................1195fps... High ES 98 Magtech, 147gr FMJ...............................1090fps PPU, 147gr JHP........................................................................................................................................................... Remington, 147gr FMJ............................1144fps.... slightly odd bullet profile, but no issues. Sig Sauer, 147gr FMJ..............................1248fps Sig Sauer, 147gr V-Crown.......................1165fps, 11rds FTF, nasty bullet setback... I am confident the V-Crown ( Sierra ) bullet is a GREAT design... but it just didn't feed in my carbine. Silver Bear, 145gr JHP............................1052fps, 3 FTF.. no bullet setback Speer 147gr GD ( 1st Gen ).....................1184fps... 5 FTF... no bullet setback... Speer, 147gr TMJ....................................1182fps Winc. 147gr FMJ Train & Defend..............1107fps.... very accurate, very clean burning, and very smooth running... My favorite 147gr carbine ammo. Hands down. Winc. 147gr Bonded JHP ........................1167fps Winc. 147gr FMJ, White Box.....................1098fps Winc. 147gr, JHP, White Box....................1146fps Wolf, 147gr JHP, "Gold"...........................970-1109.... huge ES, throughout the string Fed. 150gr HST Micro..............................952fps, perfect feeding.... could this be a perfect subsonic HST ? Fiocchi, 158gr FMJ..................................947fps IMI, 158gr FMJ.......................................1018fps.... low ES 16 PPU, 158gr FMJ......................................1005fps

124gr Aguila, 124gr FMJ.................................1280fps Armscor, 124gr FMJ...............................1234fps Armscor, 124gr JHP...............................1208fps Atomic, +P 124gr JHP, Match................1565fps Buffalo Bore, +P 124gr JHP...................1470fps CCI, 124gr Blazer Brass FMJ........................................................................................................................................ Colt 124gr JHP, by Double Tap..............1332fps , 3 FTF , 3 setback of the setbacks single loaded and fired.. 1419fps Colt NM 124gr FMJ................................1280fps Federal, 124gr HST...................................1335fps.. oddly a little smokey Federal, +P 124gr HST..............................1422fps Federal,124gr FMJ AE................................1287fps Federal, 124gr "Suppressor".......................1145fps Fiocchi, 124gr JHP.....................................1377fps Fiocchi, 124gr Truncated Cone...................1292fps HotShot 124gr FMJ....................................1210fps, dirty-smoky Hornady, 125gr FMJ, Steel Match...............1258fps Hornady, +P 124gr TAP FPD.....................1378fps, 2 FTF, no bullet setback Hornady, +P 124gr XTP Amer. Gunner.......1382fps GECO, 124gr FMJ Hungarian.....................1242fps GECO, 124gr Copper Clad Steel Jacket, Swiss.... 1248fps... 8 ES Independence, 124gr FMJ.......................1340fps, High ES 90 IMI 124gr FMJ........................................1325fps Magtech, 124gr Bonded JHP...................1392fps MagTech, 124gr FMJ..............................1328, very Low ES MEN 124gr FMJ.....................................1310fps PMC 124gr Starfire.................................1235fps, Honestly , I thought this would not feed... but it was perfect... soft shooting. PMC, 124gr FMJ ....................................1195fps Remington, +P 124gr BlackBelt GS........1398fps... 1 FTF, no setback Remington, +P 124gr GS.......................1395fps... Perfect S & B, 124gr FMJ, Gov. Contract RUAG...1201fps Sellier & Belliot, 124gr FMJ...................1280fps Sellier & Belliot, 124gr Soft Point...........1290fps Sig Sauer, 124gr JHP V-Crown..............1430fps... nasty setback 5rds.. 5FTF.. didn't like my Colt pattern feed lips. Sig Sauer, 124gr FMJ............................1490fps, Low ES, 12 Speer +P 124gr GD..............................1458fps Speer 124gr GD...................................1376fps Speer 124gr TMJ .................................1304fps Winchester 124gr FMJ NATO................1340fps ZVS 124gr FMJ....................................1215fps

115gr and below... Polycase, 65gr Interceptor............................1940fps, smelled like burning plastic slightly Polycase, 65gr Interceptor RNP.....................1844fps, smelled like burning plastic slightly Ruger, +P 80gr ARX.....................................1689fps, very ES 12, smelled like burning plastic slightly LeHigh Defense, +P 90gr Extreme Defense... 1773fps, no issues. Winc. 90gr Zinc Core "Super Clean"...............1548fps, UNBelivably clean burning inside and out. Buffalo Bore, +P+ 95gr Barnes TAC-XP..........1880fps, very consistent, Low ES Magtech, 95gr JSP........................................1694fps Fiocchi, 100gr Frangible................................1568fps Hornady, 100gr Lite, Flextip..........................1326fps, 2 bullet setbacks Aguila, 115gr FMJ.......................................1360fps, low ES Aguila, +P 115gr FMJ..................................1418fps Aguila, 117gr JHP.......................................1282fps Armscor, 115gr FMJ....................................1200fps, very smooth shooting. Atlanta Arms, 115gr FMJ, AMU load.............1388fps, VERY accurate Barnes, +P 115gr XTAC...............................1303fps ...4 FTF BlazerBrass, 115gr FMJ................................1335fps Brown Bear, 115gr FMJ ..............................1398fps... the gunky chamber didn't like the Lacquered case Browning, 115gr FMJ...................................1392 Buffalo Bore, +P+ 115gr Barnes TAC-XP .....1505fps, very low ES, so much so that it was noticeable , very consistent feeling. Colt SCHP, 115gr Solid Copper HP...............1360fps.... dismal feeding.. 8 FTF... no setback though Estate, 115gr FMJ......................................1310fps Federal, 115gr FMJ Aluminum cased, .........1326fps... 4 NASTY bullet setbacks resulting in FTF Federal 115gr SynTech...............................1362fps....3 FTF... found a chunk of the "Poly" jacket in the rifle cleanup Federal, +P+ 115gr JHP 9BPLE...................1640fps, very smooth running and feeding Federal, 115gr JHP, XM9001.......................1532fps, very smooth running and feeding Federal, 115gr JHP 9BP..............................1363fps, very smooth running and feeding Federal, 115gr FMJ AE................................1324fps Federal, 115gr FMJ "Champion"..................1340fps, oddly, softer recoil then the above AE Fiocchi, 115gr HP.......................................1458fps Fiocchi, 115gr FMJ......................................1316fps, large ES 88 Herters, 115gr "Total Nylon Jacket".............1340fps, large ES 88 Hornady, 115gr C. Defense FTX...................1340fps HotShot, 115gr FMJ....................................1372fps GECO, 115gr FMJ, German made................1334fps IMI, 115gr FMJ..........................................1427fps, very low ES, clean IMI 115gr Di-Cut........................................1352fps Independence, 115gr FMJ, Brass.................1305fps... 60 ES Magtech, 115gr FMJ..................................1371fps Magtech, +P+ 115gr JHP...........................1640fps, very fast 115gr MaxxTech, 115gr FMJ................................1198fps, for a FMJ bullet..numerous FTF, underpowered part of the issue ? Nosler, 115gr JHP, "Match"........................1464fps, very low ES 12 PMC, 115gr FMJ........................................1287fps PPU, 115gr FMJ.........................................1363fps, NASTY setback in 9rds ( worst of all the setbacks ) This is the ammo that made me realize "not all ammo is equal" PPU, 115gr FMJ NATO................................1448fps Sellier & Bellot, 115gr FMJ.........................1340, large ES 102, smelled odd ?! Sellier & Bellot, 115gr JHP.........................1370fps.... 5 FTF, 2 with setback Sig Sauer, 115gr FMJ.................................1498fps Sig Sauer, 115gr JHP V-Crown....................1462fps... NASTY setback... AGAIN, setback in my Carbine YMMV !!! Silver Bear, 115gr FMJ ..............................1525fps Silver Bear, 115gr FMJ ..............................................................................................................testing again, curiosity Speer, 115gr GD.........................................1525fps, ordered another box.. surprisingly fast. Speer, 115gr TMJ.......................................1396fps Speer, +P 115gr TMJ..................................1382fps Speer, +P+ 115gr GD.................................1596fps, given the "standard" pressure loads velocity, I was surprised this wasn't faster. Tula, 115gr FMJ.......................................... Winc., 115gr FMJ.......................................1370fps Winc., 115gr FMJ "Forged".........................1336fps, large ES 90 Wolf, 115gr FMJ Military Classic..................1352fps Wolf, 115gr FMJ Polyperformance...............1530fps... 1st lot #,... tested twice because of the high velocities Wolf, 115gr FMJ Polyperformance...............1410fps... 2nd different lot #,... also tested twice because of the very different lots. Wolf, 115gr FMJ Polyperformance........................................................................................................................................ Yavex ( Turkish ) 115gr FMJ................................................................................................................................................

129rds tested so far... As always... YMMV... so please view my carbines data as just my results... the same barrel, under the same conditions, so as to eliminate variables, .... your carbine might be faster or slower slightly. I want to make sure everyone realizes my results are from a Colt Pattern Carbine, with a mag block insert..... any feeding issues might not happen in a Glock Pattern, or a designed from the ground up 9x19 carbine ( Beretta, Sig .. etc.. ) So take the feeding issues with a grain of salt. I realize most people are not really concerned with the velocity of various 9x19 rounds... but ...My goal was to see what will run in my carbine, what the velocities were , and "guesstimating" what the added velocity would do to the various JHP, Bonded HP's, Copper HP's etc.... ( You have to start somewhere... ) A good example would be the Fed. XM9001.... that older design bullet already penetrates to a shallow depth.. and the added velocity will probably make its penetration depth less... kinda acting like a "varmint" 9mm round. I also know there are various other sites with very helpful info ( BBTI ) ... but, some of their data is kind of dated, and does not include the newest rounds. Weather.....68 degrees, slightly overcast, chronograph was 12 feet from the muzzle. 18rds of each 9x19 ammo was chronographed... The reason being, I am going to later conduct a 32rd mag test concerning reliability / feeding and accuracy test... I will include the FTF and FTE , etc from this round of testing. My "standard" for velocity checks, is GECO Swiss 124gr... I have found it to be very consistent and accurate... so I used it every hour to spot check velocity. Just to make sure the sun or "murphy's law " wasn't skewing chronograph results. Rifle info.... PSA 16" 9MM Colt Pattern Hybrid, 1n10 twist, Lantac Muzzle Brake, ALG ACT trigger with JP Springs, 6.75oz Buffer, Tubbs .308 variable power spring. Competition Electronics ProChrono Pal Chronograph was used.... General observations... Not all 9mm is created equal... I observed numerous nasty bullet setbacks.. Photos will follow later... but it was obvious some brands use better QC and neck tensions / crimp pressure.... ( Remember YMMV ) Only one 9mm OEM round would not cycle consistently, it should be noted that every other FMJ bullet fed perfectly in my carbine, but not the MaxxTech 115gr FMJ ... and it was VERY low velocity as well ( compared to same weight ammo ) perhaps the low velocity contributed to the feed issues..... While some of the ammo was expensive, those same rounds were very impressive in function.. I have to say Buffalo Bore ammo was 100% reliable....even while using the same bullet ( Barnes X bullet ) that other manufacturers rounds had trouble with. I expected some JHP's to choke while feeding, simply because of the HP's profile and the less then perfect feed ramps of a Colt pattern carbine.... and some did.... consistently across the weights. That is NOT to say it is bad ammo... just not a good choice in my AR15 Colt pattern 9MM... that same ammo might feed perfectly in a Sig MPX... Or a Glock Pattern AR....or such. As we all know... a blowback 9mm carbine can get filthy quickly, and some ammo burns very clean... while some burns filthy. If you are running a suppressor..... I strongly suggest you use the cleanest burning, fully coated / "sealed" bullet.... I was just starting to have issues with chambering at the end of the day.. from the gunk that had accumulated. There was no noticeable effect on velocities... just function got sluggish.

80gr - 85gr Brand and headstamp on brass......................................16 " Velocities ( FPS )....... .20" Velocities ( FPS ).........Comments......,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, NC means NATO CROSS 80gr Fed. GMM ................................................................................................................................................... FOR LONG THROATED BARRELS ONLY..oal longer then mag 85gr Barnes OTM.5.56...............BBR 5.56 13.....................Av. 2482, ES 32......................Av. 2565, ES 48 ..........Great accuracy, I was concerned that 1n7 might not be enough.

70gr through 77gr Brand and headstamp on brass................................................16 " Velocities ( FPS )........20" Velocities ( FPS ).........Comments......,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, NC means NATO CROSS SSA 5.56 70gr TSX..................................................................Av. 2508, ES 76....................Av. 2610, ES 11............... Hornady 73gr ELD .223 .................................................................................... ASYM 75gr .223...........................LC 14 NC..............................Av. 2605, ES 52.................Av. 2752, ES 40............"A+" Accuracy Black Hills 75gr .223 OTM .........F C 223 REM..........................Av. 2419 , ES 84.................Av. 2579 , ES 45.............. Creedmoor 75gr BTHP .223............................................................................. Hornady. 75gr Match....................HORNADY 223 REM...........Av. 2510 , ES 50................Av. 2640 , ES 60...........Interesting that this is faster both Nosler and Norma as well as more accurate Hornady Super. 223 Match 75....HORNADY 223 REM............Av. 2701 , ES 41................Av. 2790 , ES 54.......... Exact same headstamp as the standard 75gr match good accuracy Hornady Super. 5.56 75... ...........Hornady 5.56 NATO.............Av. 2785 , ES 31...............Av. 2840 , ES 42............Best accuracy in both rifles.... Hornady 75gr 5.56 "Black"................................................................................. Hornady 75gr 5.56 T2 Tap................................................................................. Hornady 75gr 5.56 SBR TAP............................................................................... Hornady 75gr 5.56 SBR TAP "Training"................................................................ Hornady 75gr "Steel Match" .223........................................................................... HPR .223 75gr.............................LC 13 NC..............................Av. 2414, ES 87.................Av. 2528, ES 112...........Slow but great accuracy HSM 75gr 5.56 ... .......................HSM 06 NATO 5.56..............Av. 2648 , ES 31.................Av. 2801 , ES 24.......... Excellent accuracy... out to 300 yards.( As far as got ) 75gr HSM 5.56 Tactical OTM ....LC 06 ( NATO Cross )............Av. 2795 , ES 49................Av. 2863 , ES 37............Excellent accuracy PPU 75gr .223.............................PPU 223 REM......................Av. 2461, ES 69...................Av. 2590, ES 109............Dismal accuracy... as a matter of fact 4MOA at 100yds. Speer 75gr .223 GD...................................................................................... SSA 5.56 77gr.............................5.56 SSA..............................Av. 2442, ES 25....................Av. 2567, ES 60............."B+" accuracy SSA 5.56 70gr TSX..................................................................Av. 2508, ES 76....................Av. 2610, ES 11............... SSA 5.56 77gr OTM Mk262 Clone...........................................Av. 2395, ES 74.....................Av. 2488, ES 33............. Tula 75gr .223.............................................................................................. Wolf Gold .223 75gr HP................................................................................. Atlanta Arms 77gr TMK , AMU..................................................................... Beck Ammo. 5.56 77gr SMK ...............................................Av. 2469, ES 34.....................Av. 2734, ES 8........... Black Hills 77gr 5.56 OTM .........LC 14 ( NATO Cross )............Av. 2592 , ES 21................Av. 2675 , ES 82..............Very accurate Black Hills 77gr 5.56 TMK .........WCC 14 ( NATO Cross )...........Av. 2636 , ES 54................Av. 2753 , ES 63..............Outstanding Accuracy. CBC 77gr 5.56.............................5.56 CBC 14..........................Av. 2577, ES 60..................Av. 2752, ES 75 CBC 77gr 5.56 PR 844 SMK ......5.56 CBC 12..........................Av. 2620 , ES 36.................Av. 2729 , ES 34...........These last two are labeled with different powders. CBC 77gr 5.56 WC732 SMK ......5.56 CBC 14..........................Av. 2640 , ES 52.................Av. 2712 , ES 50............ Creedmoor .223 77gr TMK............................................................................. Creedmoor .223 77gr OTM............................................................................. Corbon 77gr .223 MPR.................................................................................. Federal 77gr 5.56 "FC262"................................................................................. FGMM 77gr .223 SMK FGMM....F C 223 REM..........................Av. 2340 , ES 25................Av. 2411 , ES 33.............. Very good accuracy Fiocchi 77gr .223 SMK ..............G.F.L. 223 REM......................Av. 2390 , ES 96................Av. 2488 , ES 53............. about average accuracy for 77gr IMI 77gr 5.56 OTM..................IMI 13 variety of 2 digits.........Av. 2726 , ES 39..................Av. 2810 , ES 41........... Not the most accurate, but certainly a good value. Norma 77gr .223 TAC ...............norma 223 REM....................Av. 2430 , ES 75...................Av. 2550 , ES 68...........Average 77gr accuracy Nosler 77gr.223 CC...................NOSLER 223 REM................Av. 2440 , ES 28...................Av. 2569 , ES 36.......... I need more trigger time with this ammo PMC XTAC 77gr .223 SMK .......PMC 223 REM........................Av. 2350 , ES 62................Av. 2427 , ES 31............... Rem. 77gr .223 SMK .................R-P 223 REM..........................Av. 2468 , ES 73.................Av. 2563 , ES 39............. Sig Sauer 77gr SMK .223.................................................................................. Winc. 77gr 5.56.........................WCC 14 5.56MM....................Av 2566... ES 36..................Av 2676.... ES 20.............Decent speed, but there is faster. Winc. 77gr Match 5.56 _ _ _ .... WCC 14 5.56 MM...................Av. 2364 , ES 47................Av. 2468 , ES 54..............For a 5.56 round, this is very low velocity.

60-69gr Brand and headstamp on brass..............................16 " Velocities ( FPS )........20" Velocities ( FPS ).........Comments......,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, NC means NATO CROSS Noveske 60gr 5.56 BGT....................................................Av. 2619, ES 42...........................Av. 2778, ES 71.............I was hoping for more speed. AMA 62gr M855...............NATO AMA 12..........................Av. 2889 , ES 31.........................Av. 3005 , ES 42............ Good accuracy for M855 Armscor 62gr .223 Bonded SP................................................................... ADI 62gr 5.56 FMJST ...............ADI 12.............................Av. 2940 , ES 65.........................Av. 3112 , ES 43............... Brown Bear 62gr SP.................................................................................. Colt / Barnul 62gr FMJ.......................................................Av. 2753, ES 75..........................Av. 2892, ES 50.............. Colt / Double Tap 62gr NM......................................................................... Carl Gustav..62gr .............NATO 12-CG-10.......................Av. 2944 , ES 30..........................Av. 3044 , ES 56.......... Still not sure what to think of this ammo. This is the Swed. "Green Bullet" Very long for its weight. Fed. 62gr XM855............ NATO LC 13...........................Av. 2967 , ES 73.........................Av. 3040 , ES 82........... Typical Milspec 2-3 MOA Fed. 62gr MSR Fusion .223.....FC 13 223 REM...............Av 2828 ...ES 54.........................Av 2918...ES 34............ Short stroked twice. Fed. 62 FMJ .223 Lead Core....FC 13 223 REM..............Av. 2739, ES 73..........................Av. 2761, ES 34 Fed 62gr Fusion .223 ............................................................................. Fiocchi .223 62gr FMJ......................................................Av. 2757, ES 57...........................Av. 2898, ES 62............Good accuracy FNB 62gr SS109.................................................................................... FNM 62gr SS109..............FNM 91-1 NC..........................Av. 3009, ES 34..........................Av. 3118, ES 44.............Gawd, I miss cheap surplus GGG 62gr M855...............NATO, 5.56 13 GGG...............Av. 2930 , ES 62.........................Av. 3028 , ES 66.......... Ok, I expected better accuracy. Golden Bear .223 62gr HP........................................................................ Hansen / PPU 62gr ..........IK .223R..................................Av. 3004, ES 67..........................Av. 3153, ES 68............ Hirtenberg 62gr SS109....HP .223 5.56............................Av. 2965, ES 71.......................... Av. 3000, ES 68 ........... Hornady 62gr , 5.56, "Black"................................................................ Hornady 62gr .223 "Black"................................................................... Hotshot 62gr....................SADU 13 5.56...........................Av. 2919, ES 83..........................Av. 3057, ES 70 IMI 62gr M855.................TZZ 89......................................Av. 3008, ES 44 ..........................Av. 3192, ES 23.............Very accurate for M855. IMI 62gr FMJ 5.56............IMI 13 2 digits.......................... Av 2964.....ES 60..........................Av 3077....ES 32 ...........VERY accurate for 62gr M855 M855 IMI 62gr M855....................................................................................... Magtech 62gr FMJ 5.56........................................................................... Magtech 62gr FMJ................................................................................... PMC XTAC 62gr...............PSD 14...................................Av. 2885, ES 38...........................Av. 3051, ES 48...............Both XTAC rounds have changed my opinion of PMC "A" PPU 62gr M855, Yellow Box................................................................... PPU 62gr M855, White Box.................................................................... PPU 62gr .223 Non-Mag........................................................................ Rem. 62gr TSX Hog Hammer.........................................Av. 2772, ES 86...........................Av. 2866, ES 54....... Rem. UMC 62gr FMJ.............................................................................. Rem. 62gr CTFB.................................................................................... Tula .223 62gr FMJ......................................................... Av. Tula .223 62gr HP............................................................Av. 2776, ES 77...........................Av. 2853, ES 60..............One FTF 16" Middie Silver Bear .223 62gr SP..................................................Av. 2754, ES 50..........................Av. 2869, ES 68..............One FTF 16" Middie Silver Bear .223 62gr HP......................................................................... Winc. 62gr M855 ............WCC 88....................................Av. 2944, ES 76..........................Av. 3058, ES 56............. Winc. 62gr M855 Penetrator.............................................Av. 2904, ES 111........................Av. 3083, ES 71...............Current Production, 3 in one hole, 4 in another from the 20" Winc. 62gr OTM "Purple Cased "................................................................. Winc. 62gr OTM ........................................................................................ Tracer Fed. AE 64gr 5.56................Couldn't fire at the local range. Beck Ammo 64gr 5.56 BSB ..............................................Av. 2861, ES 38........................Av. 2943, ES 58....... Fed. .223 64gr LE SP............................................................................... Fed. .223 64gr TRU.................................................................................. Nosler 64gr BSB .223 .....NOSLER 223 REM..................Av. 2511, ES 58...........................Av. 2560, ES 44.............Not super fast, "A" grade for accuracy. Speer 64gr GD .223............................................................................... SSA 64gr BSB 5.56........SSA 5.56...................................Av.2572, ES 109..........................Av. 2570, ES 68............. Had to drop the hammer twice on one round in the 20"..... "A+" accuracy. Winc. 64gr BSB 5.56......WCC 13 5.56MM........................Av 2883... ES 62.........................Av 2978....ES 25............ Very good accuracy and speed Winc. 64gr PP .223................................................................................... AYSM 68gr .223 OTM ......................................................Av. 2723 , ES 23...........................Av. 2838 , ES 25............... Black Hills 68gr .223 OTM ........F C 223 REM..................Av. 2567 , ES 50...........................Av. 2656 , ES 72............... Creedmoor 68gr .223.............................................................................. Ultramax 68gr..................SPLIT NECKS ON ALL except for the ONE FULL NECK SEPARATION.............................Granted this is 15 years old ammo and maybe they are better now ? Aus. Outback 69gr.223 SMK.....223 REM ADI..................Av. 2553 , ES 84...........................Av. 2695 , ES 81............... Black Hills 69gr .223 SMK ........F C 223 REM...................Av. 2467 , ES 41...........................Av. 2522 , ES 92............... Creedmoor 69gr SMK .223 ..................................................................... Creedmoor 69gr TMK .223...................................................................... Eagle Eye 69gr .223 SMK .....EAGLE EYE 223 REM.......Av, 2784 , ES 72...........................Av. 2839 , ES 49............... Fed. 69gr GMM................FC 13 223 REM.......................Av. 2585, ES 30............................Av. 2780, ES 32............. Outstanding Accuracy.. "A+" Fiocchi 69gr .223 SMK .............G.F.L. 223 REM..............Av. 2757 , ES 32...........................Av. 2801 , ES 58............... Gorilla 69gr .223 SMK............................................................................. IMI 69gr 5.56 SMK................................................................................. Nosler .223 69gr CC..........................................................Av. 2498, ES 69............................Av. 2588, ES 34.................. PPU 69gr 223...................PPU 223 REM.........................Av. 2564, ES 34.............................Av. 2685, ES 80.............."B+" Accuracy

55gr ONLY Brand and headstamp on brass..............................16 " Velocities ( FPS )........20" Velocities ( FPS ).........Comments......,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, NC means NATO CROSS Ratty, Nasty 55gr 1983 Guat... IMG 5.56 83............Av. 3013 , ES 75...............Av. 3182, ES 54.......................... "Don't judge a Ammo Case by its looks"...GTG Lol ADI / Outback .223 55gr Blitz King........................ Av. 2805, ES 57..................Av. 2933, ES 52........................pretty good accuracy ! Aguila .223 55gr FMJ...............AGUILA 223 REM...Av. 2795 , ES 64................Av. 2941 , ES 173............... Armscor 5.56 55gr FMJ "M193".......................................................... Armscor .223 55gr FMJ..........A USA 223 REM.... Av. 2966 , ES 195..............Av. 3054 , ES 77............... Armscor .223 55gr V-Max.............................................................. Armscor .223 55gr SP...................................................................... Brown Bear .223 55gr HP................................................................ Brown Bear .223 55gr FMJ............................................................... Fed. AE 223 55gr .....................FC 06......................Av. 2845, ES 25...............Av. 3068, ES 14............................Prefect example of Low ES / SD doesn't mean accurate. Fed. AE 55gr ( Small Letter )....FC 223 REM...........Av. 3115, ES 58...............Av. 3299, ES 64............................The original Infamous crappy Fed. Brass Fed. AE 55gr ( Large Letter )....FC 223 REM...........Av. 3051, ES 54...............Av. 3278, ES 114...........................This is from the same boxes as above BTW... that last ammo was loaded in H22 Thermold that has been unloaded once and then reloaded once for over 20 + years ... the mags spring strength was fine. Fed. AE 223J.............................FC 223 REM..........Av. 2889, ES 68................Av. 2982, ES 94..............................Current production Fed. 55gr XM193.......................LC 09 NC................Av. 3115, ES 80...............Av. 3168 , ES 32............................Typical Milspec 2-3 MOA Fed. 55gr M193.........................LC 14 NC................Av. 3088, ES 38................Av. 3220, ES 74............................Supposedly the real thing,not XM, much better than XM accuracy Fed. 55gr XM193F.....................LC 08......................Av. 3071, ES 42................Av. 3214, ES 59...........................White box.... crimped Fed. 55gr XM193AF..................LC 14 NC................Av. 3072, ES 49................Av. 3236, ES 54............................Factory stripper clipped Fed. 55gr XM193.......................LC 08 NC................Av. 3106, ES 27................Av.3232, ES 40.............................'08 Brown Box Fed. 55gr XM193.......................LC 14 NC................Av. ..........................................................................................'14 Current Brown Box Fed. AE 55gr XM193C................LC 08 NC................Av.3092, ES 47.................Av. 3206, ES 64............................Black Box Fed. 55gr .223 SP TRU..............................................Av. 2761, ES 48................Av. 2896, ES 38.............................T223A Fiocchi .223 55gr PSP ............G.F.L. 223 REM.........Av. 2757 , ES 32.................Av. 2781 , ES 58............... Fiocchi .223 55gr PSP.................................................Av. 2818, ES 78..................Av. 2869, ES 69........................RETESTING, velocity concerns.................. Fiocchi .223 55gr FMJ............................................... Av. 2767, ES 84..................Av. 2854, ES 80.........................Green Boxed Made in USA Fiocchi .223 55gr FMJ...............................................Av. 2908, ES 64....................Av. 3069, ES 67........................Red Boxed Made in Italy, more accurate then USA made by 3/8" GECO .223 55gr FMJ.............GECO 223 REM..........Av. 2967 , ES 45...............Av. 3128 , ES 22..........................Quite accurate, and still the "cheap" accuracy king. Black Hills / GECO 55gr FMJ .223............................Av 2863, ES 31.................Av. 3000, ES 20...........................Loaded by RUAG / GECO to Black Hills Specs. GECO 5.56 55gr FMJ...................................................................... Golden Tiger .223 55gr FMJ............................................................. Gorilla .223 55gr BK...................................................................... HotShot 55gr FMJ......................................................................... Horn. 55gr Sup. 5.56 GMX..HORNADY 5.56 NATO...Av. 3130, ES 44...............Av. 3201, ES 55..........................EXTREMELY FAST for a solid copper bullet Horn. 55gr .223 SP...............HORNADY 223 REM......Av. 2930, ES 41...............Av. 3115, ES 49..........................."B" accuracy Horn. .223 55gr HP Amer. Gun. ........................................................ Horn. 55gr .223 V-Max...................................................................... IMI M193..................................TZZ 89........................Av. 2997, ES 74................Av. 3194, ES 24...........................IMI from '89 IMI 55gr FMJ 5.56.. .................IMI 14 2 digits.............Av 3158.....ES 69...............Av 3180....ES 38 ........................'14 IMI Independence 55gr (XM193I).. FC 2,1, 13.................Av. 3195, ES 50.................Av. 3343, ES 94..........................Same type of headstamp as IMI 77gr , 4 MOA Lapua .223 55gr FMJ ......LAPUA MATCH 223 Rem...Av. 2739 , ES 60...............Av. 2901 , ES 44.......................... I had hoped for better accuracy. MEN 5.56 56gr FMJ............................................................................ MFS .223 55gr FMJ............................................................................. Norma .223 55gr FMJ TAC........................................ Av. 3011, ES 51.................Av. 3140, ES 62..........................I swear this is GECO, in a Norma headstamped GECO case. Norma .223 55gr FMJ, 20ct box........................................................... Perfecta .223 55gr.............PERFECTA .223 REM.......Av. 2862 , ES 44................Av. 3007 , ES 95............... PMC .223 55gr SP............................................................................. PMC 55gr Bronze....................PMC 223 REM............Av. 2626 , ES 82...............Av. 2754 , ES 97........................ Just awful accuracy PMC XTAC 55gr......................PSD 14........................Av. 2994, ES 33................Av. 3180, ES 72..........................Clearly crimped and sealed. Outstanding accuracy PPU 55gr.................................PPU 14 5.56X45..........Av. 3061, ES 37................Av. 3240, ES 28...........................Crimped , sealed, PPU Is a excellent value. PPU .223 55gr FMJ......................................................Av. 2938, ES 48................Av. 3079, ES 47...........................Blue Boxed commercial PPU .223 55gr SP........................................................Av. 2862, ES 66................Av. 3064, ES 47............................Blue Boxed commercial PPU 5.56 55gr FMJ M193..................................................................... Rem. 55gr MC..........................R P 223 REM..............Av. 2910, ES 100..............Av. 3059, ES 77.......................... Reasonable value / accuracy for .223 Silver Bear 55gr FMJ............................................................................ South Afr. / PMP 5.56 55gr FMJ............................................................ Speer 55gr Gold Dot............................................................................ SSA 5.56 55gr TSX.....................SSA 5.56 ................Av. 2716, ES 28..................Av. 2780, ES 72............. Tula .223 55gr FMJ......................................................Av. 2903, ES 27................Av. 3049, ES 49..........................Smells like ammonia Tula .223 55gr HP........................................................Av. 2948, ES 91...............Av. 3058, ES 70............................Ditto Winc. 55gr Q3131A.................W.C.C 03 .....................Av. 3105, ES 30................Av. 3234, ES 100........................Winchester IMI.. even says "Made In Israel" Winc. 55gr Q3131...................WCC 04 NC..................Av. 3162, ES 98.................Av. 3282, ES 101........................Winc. from '04 Winc. 55gr Q3131...................WCC 12 NC...................Av. 3095, ES 59................Av. 3296, ES 40..........................Current Winc. 55gr Q3131...................WCC 94.........................Av. 3268, ES 80................Av. 3333, ES 50..........................dismal 100yd accuracy... 4-5 MOA Wolf 55gr Poly .223..................Wolf 223.......................Av. 2830, ES 40................Av. 2954,ES 109..........................Worst accuracy of ALL... truly laughable. Wolf Gold 55gr .223.............223 REM WOLF...............Av. 2951 , ES 105.............Av. 3102 , ES 50........................... Wolf 55gr FMJ, Mil. Classic....................................................................

54gr and below.... Brand and headstamp on brass..............................16 " Velocities ( FPS )........20" Velocities ( FPS ).........Comments......,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, NC means NATO CROSS Hornady 35gr NTX Sup..............................................A v. 3585 , ES 19...............Av.3622, ES 39............ Fiocchi 223 40gr V-Max............GFL 223 REM..........Av. 3254, ES 81................Av. 3370, ES 61...............Decent accuracy 1.75 MOA...Fed Tipped Varmint much better Fed. Red Box 40gr JHP.............FED 223 REM........Av. 3350, ES 30.................Av. 3382, ES 38...............Ok accuracy... some of the first ammo I bought... 30+ years ago NOTE This is the really old Red and White box. Fed .223 42gr Frangible.......................BC223NTS.......................... Fed. 45gr RHT............................................................................... Winc. 45gr JHP .223 .......Winchester 223 Rem........Av. 3059... ES 57..............Av 3180 ...ES 130............ehhhh... Fed. AE 50gr JHP.....................FC 14 223 REM.......Av. 2959, ES 69.................Av. 3134, ES 109.............. Same type crimp, sealant & Headstamp as the GMM,... Same Brass? Fed., AE 50gr Tipped Varmint...FC 223 REM............Av. 2943 , ES 48...............Av. 2982 , ES 34................Great accuracy in all my AR's Rem. 50gr JHP.223 .................R-P 223 REM............Av. 3034... ES 56...............Av 3200....ES 54............... Very good accuracy Sako 50gr FMJ 223.................SAKO 223 Rem..........Av 3207... ES 19................Av. 3338... ES 92............. Average accuracy Winc. 50gr Frangible....................................................................... Barnes 52gr OTM 5.56....................................................................... Black Hills .223 52gr ...............................................Av. 2915... ES 38...............Av. 3051... ES 54...............Blue Box, consistent, good accuracy. Horn. 53gr VMax Super.223 ... Hornady 223 REM.....Av. 3093...ES 36...............Av 3240....ES 54 .............. Good accuracy, but double the price of better , 250fps slower ammo.

First off, be advised, these are velocities from my rifles... and as such there is an excellent chance that "Your Mileage May Vary". In other words, these figures are meant for a general comparison of various OEM factory loads ( as well as some different years of production ) from the 2 same rifles throughout the testing. Currently there is over 100+ different factory loads velocities listed. As a double-check... I have been firing the same batch of GECO OEM loads as a "standard" to verify the chrono is up to snuff. I will note, while some of my velocities shown may not match other results from the vast internet.... please remember that no two rifle barrels are the same. For all I know, my barrel might be a "fast" or "slow" barrel... as well as some of the other testers on the internets barrels. This link helps explain / demonstrate, or show the dramatic differences possible in the "no two barrels are identical" phenomenon. The article is about reloading, but shows how different barrels can be, even in identical barrel length and manufacturer. Why Ballisticians Get Gray... by Dave Andrews Enough YMMV stuff... Here is the info. I will list rifle specs first.... 16" BCM upper with V7 barrel ,quote.."Manufactured from Rockwell C 30-32 Hardened 416R Stainless Steel. These barrels feature 1:7 improved Polygonal Rifling, V7 Match Chamber, while being V7 Ultra-Match Lapped." ( cut n' paste... easier then me explaining ) Free Floated, BCM Gunfighter MOD 0 Comp, H2 Buffer , FA BCG. 20" PSA 5.56 NATO chamber, 410 SS, CHF, USGI A2 Free floated, FA BCG 2ea 10 shot groups... for a total of 20 rds. per rifle.... Chronograph...Competition Electronics ProChrono Digital Chronograph .... Velocities measured 15 ft from muzzle...Temp. 82-88 degrees... Elev. approx. 232 ft. The Chrono is not the best, but has proven to show repeatable results from the same lot of GECO and Fed. Tipped Varmint, over the span of months, every time As I add ammo.... you will see items with no data, that is because I haven't gotten time to input the data/or chrono the ammo. .... life really gets in the way of my shooting.... *Hold on to your AR-15s. Their magic must be very powerful, or they wouldn’t want them.*

Mods... at this point I am considering stopping this thread. At the very least, a huge warning posted at the 1st thread should be added to it, feel free to add ANY WARNING to any of my posts as desired by the staff.

Geez... ya make it sound like we are telling you to do this ! Lol..sooo YMMV ! And, because times have changed ( and no offense to anyone ) ..... I will give a "beware of what some guy on the internet says to do" warning... and anyone doing what I have done is proceeding at their own risk !!, ....as I have no way of knowing anyone's level of proficiency with home "gunsmithing" and "do it yourself tasks". IF YOU ARE NOT COMFORTABLE doing what I have chosen to do, then DON'T DO IT ! Me and/or anyone, including the webpage, at www.308ar.com is responsible for someone else's own decision's and actions. I am not saying this to be mean spirited, but more as a warning. Make your own decisions, and be responsible for your own choices. I am saying that is the route I took. I am not sure I could have bent the gas tube enough or correctly.. at least to my liking. Also, honestly.. had I not ground the barrel nut, I still feel like the edge closest to the receiver would have been pushing on the gas tube. AGAIN no offense to anyone !! I have been quite specific through this thread as to what worked for me... I don't want to feel like I should stop posting based on someone not understanding what I am doing with my property.

I'm impressed with the detective work !!! Now I want an arrow spinner ! Sorry to hear about this issue though.

Very nice !

Very Nice ! Let us know how it shoots.