Cliff R

Correct. The most important thing to know is that they have no loyalty whatsoever to the original folks who set them up with the specs and hired them to build the part(s). Rest assured, the really nice spring, charging handle, extractor, bolt, or other part you went thru great lengths to get produced will absolutely and positively be offered to other folks/sellers and quite possibly before you get your first run from them. I've seen this happen so many times I REFUSE to use them for anything. Bottom line the offshore sources operate on production numbers, with no loyalties whatsoever to anyone........Cliff

I've built half a dozen of these weapons, all before finding this site. All function flawlessly even though for some of the parts I was wondering around in the dark a bit. Since I wasn't educating myself with the help of the experienced folks on here I have a nice box of leftover parts that don't fit or work well due to incompatibility issues between the various designs/offerings. The DPMS Oracle I got in a trade for a S & W handgun was straight out of the box from Rural King. Topped it with a top quality scope, rock solid mounts, A2 stock and supposedly the correct buffer/springs and it runs flawlessly, and accuracy is very acceptable and as good as the custom 308 AR's I build sourcing out components supposedly "higher end" from various on line sources. I am NOT "pushing" the Oracle, just pointing out that it's not too bad for the price point right out of the box although I never fired it with the collapsible stock that it showed up so not completely sure if that gas system would work as good as what I put in it?........Cliff

If I thought the market would be big enough I'd take the needed steps to have some of these spring made by the company I use right here in the USA with top quality spring wire. Since the spring wire I'd use would last about 40-50 years making 30-50 cycles per second the would NEVER give the first issue one in one of these weapons. The problem with all of this sort of thing is the Chinese. They want the work so bad they'll make smaller quantities for pennies on the dollar or what my USA source would cost. I typically do at least 1000 pieces (10,000 is a better choice as it drives the price down considerably as higher quantities make the initial cost much less). I've been approached thru emails many times by companies from China offering to make the springs I use for about 6-8 times less than the current cost and they will do much smaller batches. Sounds good, right...WRONG. They will take the samples/specs and make the springs and complete my order. Before I even get the first one sold they will have offered and delivered them to at least half a dozen others and I'll see them on Ebay and other websites for sale for about what I paid for them. The quality will NOT be anywhere near as good as my USA (who the hell knows what rusty car bumpers they sourced the base material from on any given day) source, but PRICE drives these markets, not the quality of the end product. I call it getting "rolled under the bus", and it's happened to quite a few folks who thought the attractive offers from these Chinese (and other offshore sources) was the way to go with there parts suppliers. I absolutely REFUSE to go offshore for anything made here. Instead I'd rather pay the HUGE upfront costs for superior products, then sit on a considerable inventory for quite a while before the crossover point is reached where we have paid off the original investment and making money. This can actually take many months if not years, but I've been doing this since 2003 and it's always worked out sooner or later. Sorry for the long rant, and there is no way the buyer would know where the springs are being made at, or the true quality of them. These companies that use offshore sources for those parts let the end users be the testing grounds for them as they do little if any testing prior to offering the actual end product for sale, although they may have tested the original prototype some and it was probably made to their specs in the USA before outsourcing it The entire adventure is driven by price, profit margins and trying to steer folks in their direction. To compound the problems many of these sources are NOT coming from actual businesses with an LLC, or even a Federal Tax ID number despite what the fancy websites lead you to believe. These home-based businesses operate under the radar (hopefully that's going to change soon) and can and will offer sub-standard parts in many of these markets just to put extra income in their pockets to supplement their "day jobs". So bottom line is they can sell cheap-ass parts with very little mark up making it IMPOSSIBLE for reputable business selling much higher quality parts to be competitive. Despite what folks say, believe me, PRICE drives the market more than the quality of the end product......FWIW......Cliff

It's simply not made of good spring wire, IE.....JUNK! Even if the parts were not correct and allowing the spring to "stack" it should not have separated with just a few cycles. I have a company that winds springs for one of my businesses. I provide samples and specifications and they provide a finished product. Most of the springs I have done are compression springs, and from either stainless or chrome vanadium spring wire which is basically the same material engine valve springs are made of. They can withstand constant cycling without loosing pressure or failing. A spring that only gets compressed a couple of times and breaks into that many different parts wasn't worth two squirts of duck poop before it was installed.....IMHO.....Cliff

My out West 308 hunting rifle is from PSA, but I only used their stripped lower and 14.7" upper w/o the BCG. The lower got the A2 stock and a few parts from PSA as some of the parts in the lower kit I got elsewhere didn't work. The pins for one I believe were not the right length, maybe a couple other parts, been too long ago and I have bad cases of CRS these days. Performance from the barrel and upper has been solid to date. Can't remember where I sourced out the BCG, or the buffer and springs for the A2 stock, but I will say the weapons runs FLAWLESSLY and to date has never had a single failure to feed, eject, or any other issue anyplace. I purchased the PSA 308 stuff right when they first started getting into them, so basically just used their upper and lower to build from. After reading all the issues they have I may have dodged a bullet with that deal, no pun intended!........Cliff

I've logged about 150 rounds thru mine, and managed a couple of groups well under 1" with factory 150 grain hand loads, IMR 4320 and Sierra 150 grain soft points, and not one single failure to feed, eject, or any other issue of any kind. What amazed me was the trigger, most AR's have tons of take-up/creep, gritty and WAY too heavy for pull. This one is about as good as it gets without going to an aftermarket adjustable deal. I'd take it out West for a Fall hunting trip w/o hesitation......

I got an DPMS Oracle in a trade couple of years ago, NIB. Right out of the box the trigger was excellent, very slight "take-up" and light and crisp. I topped it with a 3.5-16 Burris scope and good mount and took it to the range. I also did the A-2 stock conversion (preferred on all my AR's). I put half a dozen different loads thru it and very few spread over an inch at 100 yards. It really liked one type of factory ammo, going from memory it was "Fusion" or something like that. With my 175 grain Barnes hand loads it did pretty good, but I still took my PSA 14.7" 308 to Colorado the past few years as it's just a tad lighter.....Cliff

Agreed. Looks like we may both be here because they made it back!

Amen. Our local Italian place offered a free spaghetti and meatball dinner to all Vets. It was a big hit, nearly an hour wait time when I got there. Most of the Vets were from Korea and Vietnam, sadly didn't see any from WWII as most have passed or well into the 90's. My dad served in WWII, Korea and Vietnam retiring in 1972. He would have loved the night out we had with the family, but sadly he passed in 2015 at 89. Dad seldom spoke much of war stuff, like most Vets from that era they were tough as nails and seldom talked about any wartime experiences. He did tell one story a few times as he started out in the Merchant Marine in WWII and as a ship he was on listed hard and on it's way down he slid off the deck and over the rail. He said that a hand reached down and pulled him to safety, but he never said who it was? We were certainly thankful that's for sure!.....Cliff

There are also different length pins being used depending on who did your lower. I ran into they WAY before finding this site and have some spares left over that weren't long enough. WAY back when I built my first 308 AR's I measured the pins but don't remember the details, bad cases of CRS these days. I do know that pin diameter wasn't an issue with any of them, just pin length on at least one of the builds I did back then........Cliff

Welcome from Ohio. I wasn't a member here and did the "trial and error" deal with a couple of builds and still have a nice assortment of leftover parts that didn't fit or work well. I'm sure you'll find the help you need here to sort out any issues with your new build......Cliff

24" in a heavy profile would be pretty much bench rest only, or at least some type of rest for long rang shooting? I have three of these weapons and one has an 18" barrel with a pretty heavy profile and I woln't take it on a hunting trip where I have to carry the rifle very far, too heavy and not well balanced, at least compared to the two I have with shorter and/or lighter profile barrels and shorter handguards on them. Can't say as chrome-lined and match grade accuracy typically go hand in hand, but I have a few AR's with chrome lined barrels that make the grade for accuracy....at least if the jerk behind the trigger does their part! I will say that having a chrome lined barrel is certainly a nice feature with one of these weapons as there are no worries about getting it cleaned as soon as you come back from an outing with it. The chrome lining became a mandatory part of the Mil-Spec WAY back in the 1960's when the early M-16's faired poorly in the harsh environment in SE Asia. Lacking chrome lining was not the entire cure for the issues, but simply one of the upgrades added to make the M-16 a more reliable weapons system.......good reading on that below if you have the time: http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=1735 .....Cliff

I'd go short and light profile for hunting, even for longer distances. I use a 14.7" barreled 308 AR and it's deadly at any reasonable hunting distance, plus well balanced and goes across the scales at 10 pounds. Initially weight doesn't seem like a big deal, but you'll be remarkable surprised how heavy one of these rifles can be compared to similar build on an AR-15 platform......Cliff

I acquired a DPMS in a trade and set it up for hunting. Very nice unit right out of the box, didn't even have to "work" the trigger or do much beyond mounting a scope and outfitting it with an A2 stock. Below are groups from it and my PSA 14.7"........Cliff

I built my first 308 AR for hunting and didn't even consider barrel length, barrel profile or hand guard length/weight. Ended up buying an 18" barreled upper and full length relatively heavy handguard. After the weapon was finished and scope mounted on it I noticed that it was pretty heavy, and didn't feel all that well balanced. By chance Palmetto Armory ran a quick special on some 14.7" barreled uppers with a shorter handguard & welded flash hider so I grabbed one up an built another one. The difference in performance at the range is equal to both weapons and I use and much prefer the shorter barrel for hunting. At 10,000-12,000' every ounce feels like a pound when you are hiking in pretty deep on Public land to find out why the Elk stay away from the hunting pressure near access roads and such.......Cliff

Mine comes in at 10lbs w/o the mag and has a cleaning kit and a survival gear in the stock storage compartment.....

Some good info here. Been a LONG time since I traveled with weapons and gear, late 1980's during the Ronald Regan years. We used Pelican cases, locked of course. Made a total of 37 trips to various places, most out of Connus. Only had one incident and that was during a plane switch at Miami International. We actually saw one of our cases coming up a conveyer belt and a worker trying futilely to get into it. He was successful but thankfully he only got into one that had our gun belts and some gear and not weapons. Several of us who saw him from the plane identified him during an investigation but nothing really came out of it because we only saw him trying to get into the case, it disappeared from our view before he actually got it open. Back then it was pretty easy, we traveled with Official Passports and checked into each Country with the help of Embassy Officials and a representative from the leading Law Enforcement agency from the Country we were entering, bypassing Customs, then bypassing it again on the return trip. Once in a while we would go to a school/training in Connus and travel with weapons. I don't remember all the details being 30 years ago but it was pretty easy back then. We showed up with travel orders and a copy of our itinerary on an official letterhead, declaring the weapons(s) during check-in, showing our paperwork/credentials and breezing right on thru. I would imagine things are considerably more restrictive/difficult these days since 9-11 and/or if you are a civilian/non LE traveling with weapons and ammunition........Cliff

Thanks. Always wanted one but hate throwing that kind of change at something I might not like. Did some night shooting with it behind the shop (works flawlessly with the hand grip spot-light on my AR-15), and some more close range, rapid fire, etc. Really liking it at this point. Headed for the range this weekend to see how it does at longer distances.......Cliff

Well, one followed me home. Ended up with the Model 552. Cost me $3 out of pocket after I redeemed my points. Took about 5 minutes and 20 rounds to zero at 7yds. Using the hash mark on the bottom of the circle putting all the rounds pretty much in the same hole at 7 yards. Good enough for what I bought it for and I'll check it at longer distances next time we go to the range.......Cliff

Finally getting some much needed rain. Going to head to Cabellas today and check the some of these sights out. Might have to bring one home with me.......Cliff

The bullet drop on the M193 is significant and long distance. Just for fun I shot 3 rounds at a dead tree apprx 700 yards from where I was set up ground hog hunting. Did even think I'd be on the tree at all but surprisingly all three rounds were pretty close to each other, but WAY below the point of aim. The tree was slightly down hill from my position. Didn't have my range finder with me but would estimate 650-700 yards as it's 250 to the fence then about 400 yards or a tad further into the next field to the tree. I'd guess the bullet impact point below the point of aim at close 8 feet! Next outing I'll try my 308 AR and see how much it drops doing the same thing......Cliff

EXCELLENT!....

Good info. I'm assuming that it would be close for either 193 or 855 ammo for when they cross the line of sight at 50 and 200 yards. For the most part that's all I shoot in my AR's even the ones I have set up for Varmint hunting. Each one favors a certain ammo, may shoot well with many, and poorly with others, at least from what I've seen here as I buy a lot of it in bulk. Most of the cheaper bulk ammo isn't that great, even though one would think it would at least make the Mil-Spec since they often advertise it with Military designations. Sort of related by I have a really old Red Dot type sight on my 870 dedicated slug gun. I don't even know who made it (Tasco maybe?), but I've had it so long couldn't even tell you when I bought it, probably in the 1980's. The hard kicking 870 hasn't shook it loose yet, nor has it required any adjustments for point of aim. I've busted more deer with it than I can count, and can't remember the last time it needed a battery, and I think I messed up and left it on after hunting season which killed it. I love no magnification and only one thing to look at for close range and moving game. Many of the deer I've busted with that set-up have been on drives and they were moving pretty good. Pretty cool concept, shoot both eyes open, put the Red Dot on the target, swing with them if moving/lead based on distance and speed, down they go. For the job at hand I'm still leaning toward an Eotech as I like the look of them and "open" field of view vs looking into a tube......Cliff

Yep, Sam is the little one guarding her fresh kill. She was also lightning quick and caught her fair share of ground squirrels and rabbits in her younger years. She's 12 years old in that pic but you'd never know she was much over 4 or 5. Groundhogs are tough for sure. I whacked a couple last week on a fresh cut hay field with my RR AR-15 set up for varmint hunting. Not uncommon to plow them pretty good with M193 or 855 full metal jacket and a minute or two later see them dragging themselves back to their holes. I have a bald Eagle that watches my hunts so I make sure they don't complete that journey. He moves in quickly, and it's cool as chit to watch any buzzards that wonder in sit back and wait for him to finish before they eat.....it's called "respect".........Cliff

I was looking at the 512, and like the cheaper AA battery deal but also eyeballing the shorter and more compact models like the XPS2. Basically I have some Cabellas bucks to spend and don't really need anything else. If I let Deb cut loose with my card she'll just buy a bunch of nick-knack chit and some apparel, so figured I'd go on line and place an order before our next store visit. The sight will end up on my "home-defense" AR-15 so not overly concerned with long range pin point accuracy or even shifting point of aim slightly for one reason or the other. I doubt if it will ever be used past 15 yards or so unless the chit-hooks that wondered onto my property with bad intentions are trying to escape up thru the woods behind the house, and at that point I'll probably just fire over their heads anyhow.....LOL. Thanks for the info guys........Cliff