Yet Another Build Thread - My First Large Frame AR

Matt.Cross · June 22, 2018

2 minutes ago, supertux1 said:

Again, I didn't suggest anyone do this. Only that it's fairly easy to find a source for shims (small discs of metal with varying degrees of thickness in whatever alloy you want) if muzzle brake manufacturers really cared to and it wouldn't cost that much in volume. McMaster doesn't make them, they're an engineering supply reseller, they get them from somewhere, probably China.

This may surprise you, but I'm a Machinist, Tool and Die Maker by trade. I'm intimately familiar with precision shims, how they're sourced, how they're made, how they function, and what is necessary for them to function correctly/ideally.

Everything you have mentioned so far comes at substantial cost to a manufacturer; locating a manufacturer, choosing a suitable material, developing a manufacturing strategy, QC constraints, developing a solid and reliable business relationship, the list goes on and on. All that cost has to be recovered in the sales of product.

98Z5V · June 22, 2018

6 minutes ago, supertux1 said:

Again, I didn't suggest anyone do this. Only that it's fairly easy to find a source for shims (small discs of metal with varying degrees of thickness in whatever alloy you want) if muzzle brake manufacturers really cared to and it wouldn't cost that much in volume. McMaster doesn't make them, they're an engineering supply reseller, they get them from somewhere, probably China.

Again, you're showing what you don't know. You DID suggest that information to people, by firing back with that information, and linking that source - yet, you don't know what you're talking about, and you've proven it.

Yet again.

Hey, consolation prize, though, for you. Here's the shiit I had to dig out of the way, just to get to the guns I lined out for you above - you know, those "5.56 guns" that you asked about? I gave you "bonus guns" in there as well - and you still haven't addressed that...

Here's what I had to remove to GET to those... Lemme know if you can even identify what some of them are... They're in a pile, I know it's confusing...

supertux1 · June 22, 2018

4 minutes ago, Matt.Cross said:

This may surprise you, but I'm a Machinist, Tool and Die Maker by trade. I'm intimately familiar with precision shims, how they're sourced, how they're made, how they function, and what is necessary for them to function correctly/ideally.

Everything you have mentioned so far comes at substantial cost to a manufacturer; locating a manufacturer, choosing a suitable material, developing a manufacturing strategy, QC constraints, developing a solid and reliable business relationship, the list goes on and on. All that cost has to be recovered in the sales of product.

Of course, it's not free, but don't you think if I'm paying $125 for a muzzle brake, another $1000+$200+waiting for the suppressor that threads on to it, they could, at the very least, include something that would guarantee precise clocking and reduce the possibility of a baffle strike? (Like those $20 PA shims 98Z5V linked.)

I hate it when companies do things like this. Here's a really expensive part that doesn't include the relatively cheaper thing to make it work the best. Like when you open up an expensive premium electronic product that takes batteries and there are no batteries, or they're the crappy kind. Some bean counter at work there...

Matt.Cross · June 22, 2018

7 minutes ago, supertux1 said:

they could, at the very least, include something that would guarantee precise clocking and reduce the possibility of a baffle strike?

Like what, a gunsmith?

Newsflash, the precision shim is NOT more precise than the peel washer. You know why? The peel washer is a laminated series of precision shims.

*Mind blown*

98Z5V · June 22, 2018

14 minutes ago, supertux1 said:

(Like those $20 PA shims 98Z5V linked.)

I'd like to know where you found them for $20 - because they're not $20...

You need to understand something - that you don't know - peel washers are used on every single military rifle ever to leave an Arms Room. Ever. Every one. There ARE units in the military that have issued suppressors - that directly attach to an A2 Flash Suppressor.

Peel Washers are PERFECTLY SAFE for ANY muzzle device that will host a can. ANY muzzle device that will host a can. It's already proven, and it's already been done, ALOT.

So, how the hell did ANYONE with a can EVER survive and not get baffle strikes, before these super-high-speed indexed washers came out?>!!?

They did it with peel washers. Stud.

Edited June 22, 2018 by 98Z5V

98Z5V · June 22, 2018

On 6/8/2018 at 4:29 PM, supertux1 said:

I am building my first large frame AR for shits and giggles and money is no object.

Philosophy of Use / Design Considerations:

Long-range precision semi-automatic paper puncher, range toy.

Let's be honest, %99 of the time the rifle is going to be used at one of the ranges near me or on private land ringing steel. 100 yards - 1000 yards.

I think it would be a fun hobby for me to hone my marksmanship skills with a rifle that will always shoot better than me, going for tight groups, tack driving etc...

Bullet design and ballistics fascinate me, I want to develop the most consistent custom hand loads and what not.

Hunting Deer

I have friends with land who like to hunt, and I've been invited a few times, but I'm not doing that with an AR-15.

SHTF Sniper Rifle

I like the idea of being able to engage multiple targets quickly at various distances beyond the effective range of an AR-15.

I like the idea of being able to swap the upper between 6.5 Creedmoor and .308 if ammo resupply every becomes a problem.

I don't want to carry two rifles, one for hunting and one for self-defense.

Lower:

AP M5. The lower is going to be set up as a rifle build with features that enhance the fit to my body and accuracy, such as the MagPul PRS, two-stage trigger and a grip with a palm rest.

I have long arms and long bony hands with a long neck and long face, so adjustability is important. I shoot with a squeeze bag under the stock or the palm.

Nothing fancy with the LPK. The buffer system is going to be a JP Silent Captured Spring with heavy tungsten weights because I eventually want to run a can.

Plus I don't like the 'sproing!' sound of traditional springs and buffers. ?

(After my usual NICS delay, this is mostly completed as pictured, waiting for a few more parts.)

Upper:

AP M5. I am leaning towards 6.5 Creedmoor. I love the external ballistics properties of these bullets, even if it doesn't have the same terminal punch as .308.

Remember, my first PoU is range use. I may buy a basic .308 upper for hunting/SHTF, but that's a secondary consideration.

For the 6.5 barrel, I am looking at two options and will decide on one shortly:

The first is a Proof Research carbon fiber wrapped barrel 22"

JP 22" barrel with the heat sinks.

Both are rifle + 2" length gas systems which should minimize premature BCG unlocking/movement when suppressed. Both will be fitted with a JP adjustable gas block and JP's Rapid Configuration tubular handguard. I might put 45 degree offset BUIS on the rail and maybe a low hand grip and that's it.

BCG is a JP VMOS system with the heavy tungsten weights and JP High Pressure Enhanced Bolt head spaced to the barrel. (I'm not doing the tungsten firing pin.)

Muzzle treatment will probably just be a flash hider or minimal brake/comp until the can gets out of ATF jail.

I'm not going with a full brake because I like the guys who sit next to me on my range and they like me and I want to keep it that way.

(With 6.5 and the JP heavy parts, recoil isn't going to be an issue anyway.)

For a bipod, I will probably use some $20 detachable bargain special. IMHO bipods keep the rifle from falling over when you're cleaning it / not shooting from it. (I use a bag.)

Optics:

I am most experienced with mildot reticles, ranging with mildot, and mildot turrets, so I am thinking of either the Burris or Bushnell scopes with the Horus reticles.

Something in the range of 4-20x50, FFP. I like the idea of zeroing for 100 yards and then never touching the turrets ever again.

Optic rings from either the scope manufacturer, JP or Geissele.

Well that's it for now. I'll update as the build goes. Here's a picture of progress so far and some tools.

I go back to this, right here.

You don't know what the fuk you're talking about... :laffs: :thumbup:

98Z5V · June 22, 2018

On 6/8/2018 at 5:07 PM, supertux1 said:

Good to know! I was thinking of maybe the Atlas but I will wait for the MagPul one if it's half the price. Money isn't a problem but only if it's paying for quality. ? (So the charging handle -- yeah I know haha, I got it and the trigger when Brownell's had %25 of Geissele parts plus another %10 off overall code -- I couldn't resist! )

At the range, I shoot from tables, some wooden, some concrete and don't like how the bipod jumps around, it's kind of hard to load the bipod when there isn't anything on the bench for it too. I get better groups from my Weibad sandbag or range pack when I have to shoot from a hard surface. At long range we shoot prone on the dirt and the bipods work well when dug in there.

On 6/8/2018 at 5:16 PM, 98Z5V said:

What kind of distances have you shot at previously?

On 6/8/2018 at 5:26 PM, supertux1 said:

300 yards with 5.56

800 yards with .308

We don't have very many public 'long ranges' here beyond 300 yards (like 2 maybe) but I may be getting a private membership to one that is 1200 yards. (On the waiting list.)

On 6/8/2018 at 5:32 PM, 98Z5V said:

Yeah, there's not much in WI, at all. Lodi is the only thing I could find.

300 yards with a 5.56 is iron sights, man. That's not even a challenge. 800 yards with a .308 is different. What kind of a .308 was it, and where the hell did you find the space to shoot it in WI?

On 6/8/2018 at 8:02 PM, supertux1 said:

Yes, iron sights. I don't really count 5.56 a real long-range precision projectile but some guys have a lot of fun accuratizing their AR-15's and what not. It is certainly a good caliber for the ranges around here. I'd rather spend the money building a large frame rifle that can shoot more ballistically efficient rounds and is more appropriate for hunting which I'm just getting into.

There is a 600yd range in Columbus, but that's a club and I've only ever shot there as a guest. They're really strict about the use of their long range (nothing less than .308 and training is required) and it isn't always open. They want RSO supervised long-range shooting, which is understandable.

The one in Lodi is Winnequah Gun Club and they are the private fancy one with the 1200 yard range. I'm hoping to get in there with a referral from a service member. I was doing ballistic calculations with 6.5 CM ELD bullets and 1400 yards came up as the max supersonic range so that would be perfect. (Members also get a discount on Vortex optics which I'm told is more than the price of the membership. So we'll see. There's a waiting list.)

A little further away is McMillan Sports Center which offers a 300 yard public range, but they want $30 a day or $400 a year membership to shoot there. A little steep and far away but currently the best medium-ish range option for most folks unaffiliated with a club. I've shot my AR there and I'm getting bored.

Not too far away, the DNR is building a brand new fancy 100, 50 and 25 yard public range which is supposed to open this summer after they fix the damage recent rains did to the berms. That'll be great for scope sight-in and zeroing and coppering up a brand new barrel, tuning the gas system, 100 yard trick shots, one ragged hole etc... There is also the Dane County Law Enforcement Training range which is 100 yards and open to the public on weekends for $10.

The 800 yard shooting I've done is on an acquaintance's farm up north, private land, no benches, just dirt. Usually, we lay on the ground or in the bed of a truck and shoot at random junk, steel etc... I do that a few times a year and get use a borrowed Remmington 700. I've been hunting with that too, so now I'm basically hooked on the bigger calibers. ?

On 6/8/2018 at 8:18 PM, 98Z5V said:

There's so much that you're saying - that doesn't make sense...

This little "series" between us is what got me. What you said in that still doesn't make sense.

supertux1 · June 22, 2018

2 minutes ago, 98Z5V said:

I'd like to know where you found them for $20 - because they're not $20...

You need to understand something - that you don't know - peel washers are used on every single military rifle ever to leave an Arms Room. Every one. There ARE units in the military that have issued suppressors - that directly attach to an A2 Flash Suppressor.

Peel Washers are PERFECTLY SAFE for ANY muzzle device that will host a can. ANY muzzle device that will host a can. It's already proven, and it's already been done, ALOT.

So, how the hell did ANYONE with a can EVER survive and not get baffle strikes, before these super-high-speed indexed washers came out?>!!?

They did it with peel washers. Stud.

1

$23.74 actually. https://www.opticsplanet.com/precision-armament-accu-washer-muzzle-device-alignment-system.html

When I bought my brake, there was nothing in the product page or online literature that I could find to indicate that it came with anything to mount it with. I don't have any 5/8" shims, crush washers, peel washers etc... in my parts box as this is my first large AR. Are you with me so far? I don't claim to know everything about everything, there are large frame things that I've learned as I go, and will still learn, but I do know how to build AR's and I know how to shoot.

(I did not get the brake, pull the peel washer out look at it, laugh at it, throw it in the garbage and rush out to buy the shim kit because I got brainwashed by marketing and don't know better, but that's a really funny narrative. )

I bought the brake and five minutes later I bought a bunch of other stuff on Brownells and figured I'd need shim kit. A few days later, I get both in the mail. Now, I have a shim kit in one hand and the brake in the other, and much to my surprise a little peel washer falls out of the package.

Now I have a shim kit in one hand and the peel washer in the other. This was unexpected.

I figured that I would use the peel washer, because that's what the instructions said. I'd save the shims for the 308 upper that's coming next.

So I sliced the peel washer a bunch of times to figure out the best width and that got kind of annoying because I couldn't really get it the width I needed it to be to clock right. So I put the mangled thing aside and broke into the shim kit. One and done. Can you guys ever forgive me for my mistake? There's a fucked up peel washer as the only casualty of this build. I will give it a good burial for you guys.

Also, I don't really care if the military does it this way or that way. I am not in the military and I get to choose whatever I want in my rifles because it's my dime and not the taxpayers. Your Mk12 Mod 0/1 is a designated marksman rifle built to a specification for a specific purpose with cost and reliability being important factors as well as long range accuracy. I don't have those constraints.

washguy · June 22, 2018

Supertampon ...

Matt.Cross · June 22, 2018

8 hours ago, supertux1 said:

So I sliced the peel washer a bunch of times to figure out the best width and that got kind of annoying because I couldn't really get it the width I needed it to be to clock right.

Easy enough to make this mistake, but there's an easy solution.

Thread your brake onto your muzzle and make note of the final position of the brake. Let's call the correct timing of the brake the 12:00 position. Now you need to assess the approximate amount of rotation you need to get to 12:00, maybe you're at ~2:00 and need a lot of rotation, or you might be at 10:00 and only need a little. There's some math involved, but it's not hard, it's based on how many threads per inch your muzzle threads are.

So for 5/8-24 threads, 24 threads per inch, that's .0416 pitch. Meaning that 360 degrees of rotation in your muzzle device is .0416" of travel. To determine what thickness your peel washer needs to be, divide 360 by the number of degrees of rotation needed, and then divide .0416 by that number. This final number is the thickness needed.

Example: Muzzle device is halfway between 10:00 and 11:00, you need 45° rotation.

360 ÷ 45 = 8

0.0146 ÷ 8 = .0018

So, .002" will give you ~45° rotation.

Now you know how to determine the shim thickness needed to time a muzzle device.

washguy · June 22, 2018

Example: Muzzle device is halfway between 10:00 and 11:00, you need 45° rotation.

360 ÷ 45 = 8

0.0146 ÷ 8 = .0018

So, .002" will give you ~45° rotation.

Now you know how to determine the shim thickness needed to time a muzzle device.

I would think a machinist would know this..don't you Matt? Suptam is killin me...reimind me not to take my allthread over to him to get it cut off to length :laffs: Wash

ARTrooper · June 22, 2018

5 hours ago, washguy said:

Supertampon ...

I was wondering when Wash was going to show up. lol. :popcorn:

98Z5V · June 22, 2018

13 hours ago, supertux1 said:

Also, I don't really care if the military does it this way or that way. I am not in the military and I get to choose whatever I want in my rifles because it's my dime and not the taxpayers. Your Mk12 Mod 0/1 is a designated marksman rifle built to a specification for a specific purpose with cost and reliability being important factors as well as long range accuracy. I don't have those constraints.

There's ONE reason I brought up military-anything...

14 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

I'd like to know where you found them for $20 - because they're not $20...

You need to understand something - that you don't know -peel washers are used on every single military rifle ever to leave an Arms Room. Ever. Every one. There ARE units in the military that have issued suppressors - that directly attach to an A2 Flash Suppressor.

Peel Washers are PERFECTLY SAFE for ANY muzzle device that will host a can. ANY muzzle device that will host a can. It's already proven, and it's already been done, ALOT.

So, how the hell did ANYONE with a can EVER survive and not get baffle strikes, before these super-high-speed indexed washers came out?>!!?

They did it with peel washers. Stud.

Also - My Mk12 Mod 0 and Mod 1 are not military-issued guns. I built them myself, and I paid for them, so rest assured that there is no "compromise" factors involved with anything about them. In addition, the Mk12 Mod 0 and Mk 12 Mod 1 were not weapons that were designed with "compromises" between cost and/or reliability, and it wasn't a "contracting bid" that got the lowest cost weapon delivered by a bidder that underbid others. It was a concept that was forwarded to NSWC Crane by a Special Forces unit, and Crane had it built. .