Using .308 AR for SHTF

[SHTF .308]

I'm a new guy so please forgive me:

How is everyone today my name is Ja'carr and I'm from sunny South Florida.  I have been doing searches on a subject that has been eating me alive in recent months and after finding this site I cannot be happier for it's existence. I have been inquiring a few friends who have extensive experience with firearms mainly the AR platform and the various issues that often arise when discussing such. 

OK so what's your point?

As we all know this country is on the brink of collapse whether that be economically, civilly or tyrannical control by the Gov't otherwise all can be coined under a common phrase: SHTF (Sh*t Hit the Fan)

I really want a AR in .308 to serve as my go to gun should the fan be traversed by bowel. Particularly I have been looking at the

1. DPMS Panther Oracle 7.62x51mm NATO

2. Bushmaster .308ORC or Mid length .308

3. or suggestions from you all

I don't want a sniper rifle I just want a arm that has more energy than the .223/5.56mm. the .308 will be used tactically so engagements are only when I deem the foe to be too far outside range for a shotgun or to far to be reached effectively by a pistol perhaps outside of 30-40 yds.

Anyway enough of my rambling.

Here are my accepted trade-offs

Recoil - I am 6'1"  270lbs so I can deal with the recoil.

Ammo weight - I plan to stay put for as long as my surroundings will allow.

Over penetration- I plan to purchase a massive amount of both full metal jacket( used when possible) and Hornady Tap 110grain HP so no prob there and also again note that this gun is a last line of defense but used for patrols along with a pistol.

Please Help!!!!

Thanks in Advance!!!

[edgecrusher]

Hi and welcome big man. I like you're initial choices just fine, and I will assume you plan on pimping it out to suit your tastes. My shtf gun choices vary for engagements but keep in mind even though you are looking at 16" barrels you're still good to go (gtg) to 400-500yds. There is a lot of flexibility in this platform. My carbine is a Pws mk214, see that section for more info, and it suits me just fine for what you described. I'm 5'11", 185 and recoil from my 14.5" barrel is plenty manageable. It's cold and snowy here in Massachusetts but I bet there are some members close to you who might let you shoot their rifles so you can feet a feel for it. Do you have any ar experience?

[SHTF .308]

no AR experience at the moment but I plan to train extensively once i get it so i can maximize familiarity.

as far as pimpin i want to go all magpul

Rifle handguard black

ergo grip

i actually plan to buy a pws muzzle brake as well

moe stock

all black since i am in a suburban environment

[edgecrusher]

Okay, I meant to ask about what you stated with over penetration. I can't be positive but pretty much can tell any ..308 round is going to penetrate several walls easy. Be careful with what they say, these are large bullets going fast. There is a ton of info here, so read up and others will definitely chime in. Feel free to ask any questions.

[SHTF .308]

Okay, I meant to ask about what you stated with over penetration. I can't be positive but pretty much can tell any ..308 round is going to penetrate several walls easy. Be careful with what they say, these are large bullets going fast. There is a ton of info here, so read up and others will definitely chime in. Feel free to ask any questions.

I was thinking that as well but the reason I eluded to the Hornady Tap 110gr HP is because from my recollection it is the lightest load one can find in .308 versus a stronger soft point or FMJ I could be wrong though at any rate I'm gonna stock up on Surplus ammo particularly I have my eyes on Prvi FMJ Surplus 1000 rounds for 500or so $. What do you think?

[edgecrusher]

I have no experience with that but like federal American eagle (red box) as my range ammo. I shoot 150 and 168gr in my Pws, and both are very good. In my larue obr I shoot 168gr gold medal match, and plan on reloading in the future. I do know some guys here have shot the prvi so they might have more info on that. Something to think about though is these rifles need a break in period, and I bet you'll learn then what it'll like,  so you may want to wait before you buy in bulk

[SHTF .308]

I have no experience with that but like federal American eagle (red box) as my range ammo. I shoot 150 and 168gr in my Pws, and both are very good. In my larue obr I shoot 168gr gold medal match, and plan on reloading in the future. I do know some guys here have shot the prvi so they might have more info on that. Something to think about though is these rifles need a break in period, and I bet you'll learn then what it'll like,  so you may want to wait before you buy in bulk

how much ammo would you recommend to start with. Also I gotta ask Have you ever thought of firing russian steel cased ammo at all?

[edgecrusher]

No, I haven't. The only Russian ammo I have shot was in my colt sporter in 7.62×39, a Russian round to begin with and even then it was wolf black box. That doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't, that's just me. As far as break in, i follow this pattern: clean bore after first five shots individually, then once every five for twenty rounds. After that I will shoot normally being careful when I clean for the first couple tomes looking for anything abnormal. I would shoot quality ammo for the first 200 rds and keep it extra lubed, can't stress that enough. Then try messing around with ammo choices. I would try several brands one box at a time, five shot groups, to see what works best.

[MaDuce]

For a SHTF gun, try to stick with a cartridge that is very common but not as widely used as .308. .308 may be common now but in a SHTF situation, everyone is going to be going bonkers for the most common ammo since everyone has a gun that fires it.

You might want to look in to something along the line of a .30-06.

I'd spend most of my time thinking about how to get along in an SHTF situation. People are not going to stop being people in the event of a collapse. You need to be thinking more about how you are going to keep food on your plate, a roof over your head, and preventing illness then what gun you're going to grab.

Personally, I think .308 ammo is too heavy and takes up too much room for use ins a hell raiser. I have taken the rout of going with a .223 and .308, .223 for mobile conflict, .308 for precision, big animals and sticky situations. When you add expansive ammo in to the equation, .223 becomes a more then sufficient man stopper while the .308 becomes overkill. On the down side, good AR-15s are going to be very expensive. There are AR-15s out there that put the reliability of even the AK-47 to shame but these guns cost a fortune.

[edgecrusher]

For a SHTF gun, try to stick with a cartridge that is very common but not as widely used as .308. .308 may be common now but in a SHTF situation, everyone is going to be going bonkers for the most common ammo since everyone has a gun that fires it.

You might want to look in to something along the line of a .30-06.

I'd spend most of my time thinking about how to get along in an SHTF situation. People are not going to stop being people in the event of a collapse. You need to be thinking more about how you are going to keep food on your plate, a roof over your head, and preventing illness then what gun you're going to grab.

Personally, I think .308 ammo is too heavy and takes up too much room for use ins a hell raiser. I have taken the rout of going with a .223 and .308, .223 for mobile conflict, .308 for precision, big animals and sticky situations. When you add expansive ammo in to the equation, .223 becomes a more then sufficient man stopper while the .308 becomes overkill. On the down side, good AR-15s are going to be very expensive. There are AR-15s out there that put the reliability of even the AK-47 to shame but these guns cost a fortune.

ummm. okay, you say .308 is too heavy but you recommend .30-06, which is a bigger cartridge, and heavier. i agree people are going to go for the more common cartridges but if you have a stock pile, who cares. it'll be easier to find the more common cartridges either way, and 30-06 isn't all that common anymore, at least not like it used to be. if you come across 20 dead soldiers, you aren't going to find a single 30-06 as garands aren't issued much anymore. i would rather be able to scavenge the most common rounds than hope to find oddballs

[Retired JM]

Perhaps it's because I haven't had my morning coffee yet, but...

Ja'Carr, you're wearing clown shoes. While I appreciate the fact that you're concerned with your personal safety and the safety of your loved ones in the event of a crisis, you really need to pull your head out of your fourth point of contact.

...no AR experience at the moment but I plan to train extensively...

Based on your earlier statement that you had no familiarity with the AR or the caliber, how did you arrive at the conclusion that a .308 AR is the best answer for your personal situation?

Define "train extensively." Dumping round after round into a hillside is not training. Punching paper on a 100 yd square range is not training - it's familiarity at best and wasting ammo at worst. You live on the east coast, there are several professional trainers in your region that give top-notch instruction. Companies like EAG, Grey Group and Larry Vickers have folks with CVs that would make Jack Bauer envious. Look at their class schedules, they've probably got a class scheduled near you that you could attend. Taking a class (or two or three) would go a long way to letting you know what you need to train on and - most importantly - HOW to train. You other option is to enlist in the Army/Marines as an Infantryman for 2-3 years. Then take some classes. I spent 23 years near the sharp end of the spear and I still attend a class or two a year.

Over penetration- I plan to purchase a massive amount of both full metal jacket( used when possible) and Hornady Tap 110grain HP so no prob there...

You're not worried about over-penetration? Then you're an Involuntary Manslaughter charge waiting to happen. Rule 4: ALWAYS be sure of your target and what's beyond it.

Over-penetration is always a concern when FISHing. Why do you think most police tactical units have gone to 5.56? At CQB distances, 5.56 has the necessary lethality with less of an over-penetration risk than 9mm (Or .308, for that matter.)

Recoil - I am 6'1"  270lbs so I can deal with the recoil.

You can deal with recoil? Really? There's more to dealing with recoil than simply taking a thump in the pocket of your shoulder. Recoil affects how quickly you can get back on target and execute follow-up shots. Or do you think one round of big 'ol .308 will stop a bad actor in his tracks?

On the down side, good AR-15s are going to be very expensive.

For the amount of money the OP would spend on a .308 AR, he/she could buy a Colt, Sig M400 or an S&W MP15. He'd then have a good, solid rifle and have money for ammo and (hopefully) professional instruction.

[alelks]

Also don't forget that if the SHTF you may have to acquire your own food and a 308 on very small game is going to do too much damage.  A good .22 cal rifle is a good choice for smaller game and you can purchase a ton of ammo CHEAP.

[SHTF .308]

Perhaps it's because I haven't had my morning coffee yet, but...

Ja'Carr, you're wearing clown shoes. While I appreciate the fact that you're concerned with your personal safety and the safety of your loved ones in the event of a crisis, you really need to pull your head out of your fourth point of contact.Based on your earlier statement that you had no familiarity with the AR or the caliber, how did you arrive at the conclusion that a .308 AR is the best answer for your personal situation?

Define "train extensively." Dumping round after round into a hillside is not training. Punching paper on a 100 yd square range is not training - it's familiarity at best and wasting ammo at worst. You live on the east coast, there are several professional trainers in your region that give top-notch instruction. Companies like EAG, Grey Group and Larry Vickers have folks with CVs that would make Jack Bauer envious. Look at their class schedules, they've probably got a class scheduled near you that you could attend. Taking a class (or two or three) would go a long way to letting you know what you need to train on and - most importantly - HOW to train. You other option is to enlist in the Army/Marines as an Infantryman for 2-3 years. Then take some classes. I spent 23 years near the sharp end of the spear and I still attend a class or two a year.

You're not worried about over-penetration? Then you're an Involuntary Manslaughter charge waiting to happen. Rule 4: ALWAYS be sure of your target and what's beyond it.

Over-penetration is always a concern when FISHing. Why do you think most police tactical units have gone to 5.56? At CQB distances, 5.56 has the necessary lethality with less of an over-penetration risk than 9mm (Or .308, for that matter.)

You can deal with recoil? Really? There's more to dealing with recoil than simply taking a thump in the pocket of your shoulder. Recoil affects how quickly you can get back on target and execute follow-up shots. Or do you think one round of big 'ol .308 will stop a bad actor in his tracks?

For the amount of money the OP would spend on a .308 AR, he/she could buy a Colt, Sig M400 or an S&W MP15. He'd then have a good, solid rifle and have money for ammo and (hopefully) professional instruction.

I definity appreciate the insight you have from experience. Great write up. Will take the AR15 into consideration as I was gonna acquire one anyway later this year. The classes I did not know existed and such is worth asking.

Do they offer these classes in South Florida.

The ar10 as stated earlier is my last line of defense beyond a mossy with #4 buck to watch the premises.

Let me ask you this.

If and when i get my .308 what do u recommend i do to familiarize myself with it?

[KillShot]

In my opinion, the .308 AR-10 is the perfect SHTF weapon. It provides plenty of energy for punching through barriers and enough velocity to drop any wild game within 1000yds. While you may be able to carry more ammo with a 5.56, your opponent will be immobilized no matter where you hit him with a .308.

[SHTF .308]

In my opinion, the .308 AR-10 is the perfect SHTF weapon. It provides plenty of energy for punching through barriers and enough velocity to drop any wild game within 1000yds. While you may be able to carry more ammo with a 5.56, your opponent will be immobilized no matter where you hit him with a .308.

That was my premise for purchase. Essentially you can do more with less.  And as I stated originally I plan to stay put for as long as my surroundings will allow me to.

[unforgiven]

Any idea when the fan is gonna get full of poop? I didn't get the memo. <dontknow>

[KillShot]

I've already unplugged my fan so it shouldn't create quite a mess when or if it does hit.  ;)

[unforgiven]

Unplug fan got it..... <lmao>

[SHTF .308]

I've already unplugged my fan so it shouldn't create quite a mess when or if it does hit. 

;)

That actually isnt a bad idea

[Dusty44]

The best ideas I have come across are for a collection of weapons in any kind of dicey situation.  After the big rifle,  a 12 ga pump shotgun with long and short barrels like a Remington 870 or Mossberg 500.  Bird shot is good for small game and game birds and for close-range self protection.  Bird shot has minimum over-penetration.  Buckshot for a longer reach.

A 22 rifle is good for small game and can seriously interfere with bad guys.  More,  shooting skills are the same for all guns and the 22 will help you learn to shoot better cheaply.  When you have made a 10/22 reliably shoot 1 inch groups at 50 yards you will have learned a lot.  Cost can be as little as a gun + $50,  $125 with an excellent scope.

A 357 revolver,  double-action,  for backup.  A revolver is safer than an an auto-loader.  The 357 shoots 38,  38 Special,  357 mag (has been used,  WW-2 combat,  to shoot 9 MM Luger).  Load your own and have a lot of options.  Over-penetration with some HP bullets is not as serious a problem as some other calibers and this cartridge is a solid man-stopper and is good for game up to medium deer.  In qualified hands and with suitable ammo/bullets it has been used successfully on most game in North America.  (Yes,  The qualifications and limits,  etc.,  already fill many books and forums.  Sorry,  I really don't want to hear it.  If you are interested and do not already know,  spend some time researching it on the web.)

Ammo:  If I remember correctly,  from those who were in combat in Viet Nam,  200 rounds on your person per gun carried and at least a 1000 rounds readily available per gun.  It would be interesting to know what is the common wisdom coming out of Iraq and Afghanistan.  Most ranges where I am do not allow FMJ.  Buy mostly HP and soft point ammo.  Surplus ammo is surplus for a reason.  This is covered in recent posts in this forum for individuals having problems.  If ignition and accurate fire really matter,  good ammo is imperative.

I have reloading equipment and supplies to enhance my total ammo available at the least cost.  I do not have space for a loading bench.  I use a Lee Loader and a Lee Hand Press,  Lee beam powder scale,  powder trickler,  rubber & plastic hammer,  caliper.  My reloaded ammo is precise,  shoots as well as the factory  ammo I buy (or better).  The cost of equipment is minimal.  I push the keyboard out of the way and load on my computer desk.

I really think that if TSHTF for real,  which I consider almost totally unlikely,  it will probably not matter what any of us have done to prepare.  The desperate mobs and gangs will ransack and kill for (Ref:  "Mother Earth News,"  Cold War Era,  1960's) two gas tank fulls in all directions from big cities.  Where is a livable place more than 800 miles from a major population center in any direction?  (Not City Hall:  where masses of people are resident 'right now'  who are completely dependent on the existing infrastructure and flow of food and other essential supplies?  Almost all of us!)  How about the folks already resident who will be defending their own?    Better than guns is a supply of most-wanted barter goods.  Try toilet paper,  small candles,  matches.

[KillShot]

You won't need toilet paper because the American dollar will be totally worthless and will double as toilet tissue.

In times of economic and social distress, it only takes one bullet to take every bit of gold and barter items you have. The only currency that will matter for survival will be a bullet.

[unforgiven]

Bullets and beans....only question left who wants to die first? :sniper:

[MaDuce]

ummm. okay, you say .308 is too heavy but you recommend .30-06, which is a bigger cartridge, and heavier. i agree people are going to go for the more common cartridges but if you have a stock pile, who cares. it'll be easier to find the more common cartridges either way, and 30-06 isn't all that common anymore, at least not like it used to be. if you come across 20 dead soldiers, you aren't going to find a single 30-06 as garands aren't issued much anymore. i would rather be able to scavenge the most common rounds than hope to find oddballs

.30-06 is based on the assumption that it's not the "mainstay" round. Scavenging dead bodies for .308 may be easier early on but it seams to me stuff like .30-06 will probably be easier to come by in the long run. Personally, I don't see much difference. If there's a national collapse, there will probably be a big blow-out at the beginning but when things simmer down this country will more then likely go back to the way the west was in the 1800s. I think conditions like Somalia and "Fallout" is going to be a stretch. There was probably less murder per capita in the old west then there is now. Dodge city for instance, the name to fame for wild west shoot-outs and killings I think averaged something like 1.5 murders per year, and that's with a huge portion of the surrounding population moving through it constantly. If given the opportunity, people will live mundane lives.

Define "train extensively." Dumping round after round into a hillside is not training. Punching paper on a 100 yd square range is not training - it's familiarity at best and wasting ammo at worst. You live on the east coast, there are several professional trainers in your region that give top-notch instruction. Companies like EAG, Grey Group and Larry Vickers have folks with CVs that would make Jack Bauer envious. Look at their class schedules, they've probably got a class scheduled near you that you could attend. Taking a class (or two or three) would go a long way to letting you know what you need to train on and - most importantly - HOW to train. You other option is to enlist in the Army/Marines as an Infantryman for 2-3 years. Then take some classes. I spent 23 years near the sharp end of the spear and I still attend a class or two a year.

I can't agree more with this. Sound advice.

You're not worried about over-penetration? Then you're an Involuntary Manslaughter charge waiting to happen. Rule 4: ALWAYS be sure of your target and what's beyond it.

Again, sound advice.

You can deal with recoil? Really? There's more to dealing with recoil than simply taking a thump in the pocket of your shoulder. Recoil affects how quickly you can get back on target and execute follow-up shots. Or do you think one round of big 'ol .308 will stop a bad actor in his tracks?

I think I read somewhere that the US Army 5.56 has a better record for stopping people then the 7.62. My experience in self-defense has been that ease of shot placement under stress is more critical then what caliber you use. The S&W 500 has at least 1/3 more recoil then the .50AE and more then double in some cases, but even without the concerns of jamming, I'd use the S&W 500 over the .50AE Desert Eagle simply because the S&W 500s straight and clean recoil makes it allot easier to hit with then the Desert Eagle's rough and crunchy recoil.

For the amount of money the OP would spend on a .308 AR, he/she could buy a Colt, Sig M400 or an S&W MP15. He'd then have a good, solid rifle and have money for ammo and (hopefully) professional instruction.

I've never fired the S&W MP but my friend has one and hates it. I was thinking along the line of PWS, Addax Tactical and Daniel Defense. My Addax ZK has about $1700 in to it and would have cost over $2000 had I paid full retail for everything. You can get two LR-308s for that! If I recall correctly, PWS and Daniel Defense are almost or just as expensive.

Fortunately, at least with my experience of Addax, it's well worth the price.

[edgecrusher]

i agree with dusty44, if shit really hits the fan it'll be a real fuckhouse shitshow. pardon my language. i live 20 mins from my father, and would instantly head to his house with my loadout, real country living, but lets face it, nuclear fallout,zombies, anything like that we have three to five hard years at best before we die of radiation poisoning or the plague. RetiredJM is definitely correct on formal training, if you can do it, it'll be unequaled in helping your use of shooting technique of your weapon. just have fun shooting and be prepared the best you can, it's all you can do.

[SHTF .308]

.30-06 is based on the assumption that it's not the "mainstay" round. Scavenging dead bodies for .308 may be easier early on but it seams to me stuff like .30-06 will probably be easier to come by in the long run. Personally, I don't see much difference. If there's a national collapse, there will probably be a big blow-out at the beginning but when things simmer down this country will more then likely go back to the way the west was in the 1800s. I think conditions like Somalia and "Fallout" is going to be a stretch. There was probably less murder per capita in the old west then there is now. Dodge city for instance, the name to fame for wild west shoot-outs and killings I think averaged something like 1.5 murders per year, and that's with a huge portion of the surrounding population moving through it constantly. If given the opportunity, people will live mundane lives.

I can't agree more with this. Sound advice.

Again, sound advice.

I think I read somewhere that the US Army 5.56 has a better record for stopping people then the 7.62. My experience in self-defense has been that ease of shot placement under stress is more critical then what caliber you use. The S&W 500 has at least 1/3 more recoil then the .50AE and more then double in some cases, but even without the concerns of jamming, I'd use the S&W 500 over the .50AE Desert Eagle simply because the S&W 500s straight and clean recoil makes it allot easier to hit with then the Desert Eagle's rough and crunchy recoil.

I've never fired the S&W MP but my friend has one and hates it. I was thinking along the line of PWS, Addax Tactical and Daniel Defense. My Addax ZK has about $1700 in to it and would have cost over $2000 had I paid full retail for everything. You can get two LR-308s for that! If I recall correctly, PWS and Daniel Defense are almost or just as expensive.

Fortunately, at least with my experience of Addax, it's well worth the price.

Let me make this clear. This gun is a last line of defense after a glock 17 and mossy 500.

It wud b used only if i needed to bug out so i dnt care about training to infiltrate when i say training i mean learning my weapon inside and out. Knowing how to shoot under stress will definitely b the first task. This is jus my choice of rifle because its in my opinion very versatile. It has more uses than trying to infiltrate a base or encampment.

The question is simple given the known advantages and disadvantages of the ar308 wud you use it in a shtf scenario.

I have shot a saiga.308 so i know the inherent properties persay but not on this platform.