OCW CFE223 & 168gr A-Max

[seasprite]

seasprite, I'd be curious to see what happens for you if you tried Remington #9 1/2 primers. My SD's are lower than yours but why?  <dontknow>  I have 1500 remaining of those. I was told they have thick jacket walls and less prone to slam fire in a auto loader. It's why I use them anyway, but I'd like to try something different to have a look see.

Like what survivalshop said in your thread there is alot variables in play when you build these rounds by hand. One thing I haven't done till now was sort my cases by weight so thats one more variable that I'm trying to take out of equation. I bet the next time I go to the range my sd & es will be lower, by how much who knows but thats the fun about hand loading changing one thing at a time to see if works or not.

[NoFail]

Okay, yes that's good then. I bet you will a difference when you do that step.

[seasprite]

Since my supplies are low I decided to just load what I have left for my new load and forgo the 47.1gr test until I get some powder and bullets. I now have 60 rounds of my new load, the good news is that I'm on vacation next week along with my brother and he has access to a 200 yard range and were going to go and stretch this load out a little bit and see how does. Went to Horndy web site last night and used there ballistics calculator and here is the results.

Range    Muzzle  100    200    300    400    500    600    700    800    900

Fps          2650  2474  2305  2142  1986  1837  1696  1564  1442  1331

ftlb          2620  2283  1981  1711  1471  1259  1073  912    775    661

Traj.        -2.5      0    -3.2  -12.9 -30.2 -56.3 -92.8  -141.4 -204.3 -284.1

[NoFail]

Hi seasprite, I was re-reading these last recent posts here on your thread. I was wondering about neck tension. I know of it but don't know how you get that measurement or how you size for it if there is something else besides the regular sizing in a FL sizing die. Is there another gauge for this? What do I need to know?

Edit: P.S., I looked over the BC calcs you did and thought it would be fun to compare your data of your happy load you settled on right now. 1) because I'm bored waiting for my brass to finish cleaning in the vibrator, & 2) because I can't stop playing with the chrono and it's fun. So I ran it through my chrono trajectory calculator, and I entered for point blank zero too. Do you want to see it?

[seasprite]

For neck tension there is a couple ways to do it. 1 is take your calipers and measure the neck diameter then measure the brass thickness at the neck multiply by 2 then minus that number from your neck diameter.Then measure your bullet dia. which the A-max measures at .308 and minus that from your first answer. here's mine for an ex: (.015brass thickness x2=.30) neck dia. .335-.30=.305 (.308 bullet dia.-.305=.003) or you can stick your inside measuring jaws on your calliper in the case neck and get it that way but the first method probably more accurate.

Mine at first was only .001 which is fine for a bolt gun but I was having trouble with the bullets sliding forward when the bolt would slam home so to make it tighter I just chucked the expander ball in a drill and took some 400 grit sand paper to it. If your bullets are holding firm I wouldn't worry about it but the amount of neck tension can effect accuracy.

As far as your BC's go post it and lets see <thumbsup>

[NoFail]

seasprite I didn't realize what I was asking. That must have been some work to write that down for me, thank you, Brother. I'll go through that 1st method it doesn't seem too hard. I'll verify whether or not by bullets are working out under recoil and then see about correction, but I can't mess with new sizer die it's only half mine....

So this is your Point Blank zero based on your load where it is now, the 2.790" with ave velocity of 2655. I was just messing around with new toy, all in fun... It is correct if your sight height is 2.75", I assume that it is.....

[seasprite]

Hey thats pretty cool NoFail, only one thing is my sight height is 2.5" <thumbsup> Thats gota be nice to have all that info from your chrony to go with your load notes. I've just got an old ProChrono Plus that a friend gave to me. I had to make up some sky screens and supports for it, then I made a remote control out of an bicycle grip, momentary switch and speaker wire.

As far as your neck tension goes make a dummy round record your C.O.A.L. then feed it from the mag by hitting the bolt release then extract the round and measure again to if there is any change. 

[NoFail]

Ahhhh I see, I didn't think of checking that way, only thought of shoot some rounds out of mag and then remove mag and check the ones in bottom of mag. Yeah ok, duh!!!! :)

[unforgiven]

Just want to say you guys are doing an outstanding job with this thread,lots of info coming out for alot of people. 8)

[seasprite]

Just want to say you guys are doing an outstanding job with this thread,lots of info coming out for alot of people. 8)

Thanks unforgiven, This site and the people on here have been fantastic in helping me develop this load no one has been rude or disrespectful just a blessing thanks 308AR.com seasprite

[NoFail]

yeah, brother unforgiven, it's loads of fun too  <munch>

EDIT; "loads" of fun"  <laughs> LoL no pun intended!!!

[unforgiven]

As I haven't made tat move yet I am reading what you guys are doing and learning.Your approach is methodical good job."Loads of fun" <lmao> <thumbsup>

[seasprite]

One thing I haven't reported on yet with this powder is its claim to reduce cooper fouling well I cleaned my rifle last night in preparation for Wed. when I hope to try my load at 200 yards. When I clean my barrel I usually wrap a patch around the bore brush dip it in Hoppes #9 then push it through the bore and let it soak while I clean the rest of the rifle. I've been running some PPU factory ammo through for my fouling shots before I would start my test loads with CFE 223 and this what I have found so far. When I push my brush and patch through with solvent through I get some blue on the patch this is first patch through to start the soak time. Then after I'm done cleaning the bolt & carrier and every thing else I'll push a patch through the bore with a jag soaked in solvent to act as a rinsing stage of my cleaning which some more blue came out on the patch then after that I push dry patches through until clean. I don't know about you guy's but I've never had Hoppes remove copper from any of my rifles when cleaning so I can only conclude for my self that the CFE 223 holds the copper in suspension or forms some kind of barrier to keep it from sticking to the rifling so in my opinion it works. The carbon appears to be fluffy in nature and blacker than other powders that I have used and only takes a few patches to come clean. I think this powder might of found a permanent space on my shelf with the velocities it delivers and easy clean up.

[seasprite]

I made it out to my brothers range today had some fun at the 200 yard range and managed to get 1 set of chronograph numbers before the clouds started causing havoc with the chrony. These are the only good numbers I was able to pull today so here they are.

168gr A-Max

48gr CFE 223

PPU brass (weight 171.1gr - 171.7gr)

CCI 200 primers

1.2682

2.2671      AVG 2668

3.2671        ES 25

4.2663        SD 9  ;)

5.2657

I found 2 of the 5 rounds that had loose primer pockets, I'll let you guess how I found them >:(. I have 3 more to find and cull out of my brass I know what box there in just not which cartridge in the 20 rounds that are in there. So here's a question for you guy's is there a way to tell if the primer pockets are stretched out before you try to seat a primer <dontknow>?

Here's today's targets I had a couple of called fliers today so I didn't included them in my groups and having to clear a couple of primers out of the action didn't help matters any either.

[seasprite]

I just got done looking at my brass along with reviewing my chronograph data and I'm going to have to make a change some of my brass shows pressure signs and some don't along with the Temps:95* we had here today I'm going to say that this powder is temp sensitive. I'm going to switch my seating depth from 2.790 to 2.815 along with dropping my powder charge from 48.0 to 47.9 I know it doesn't seem like much on the powder charge but I'm hoping get most of my reduction in pressure in the seating depth and still stay in my accuracy node. If this doesn't work I'll have to develop the 47.1gr of powder.

[NoFail]

3rd try looks awesome for 200 yards, seasprite  <thumbsup> Yes I've done reading some places and I suspect the cfe223 is temp sensative.

[seasprite]

3rd try looks awesome for 200 yards, seasprite  <thumbsup> Yes I've done reading some places and I suspect the cfe223 is temp sensative.

Thanks NoFail, I liked that group a lot. Didn't have a spotting scope so I had no idea how I was doing I could make out what looked like a couple of holes. knew I was hitting high because I forgot to readjust the scope after shooting some PPU 175gr factory loads.

Did you locate some brass yet?

Plan on picking up some more A-max bullets this week along with another pound of powder so I can get back to reloading. Decided not to pull the other 40 rounds that I have made up with my 2.790 seating depth I'm just going to save them for the winter and try them on a cold day and see if my pressure signs go away. When I started doing this load work up the highs for the day were around 60* so I'm wondering what they would be like on a 30* day. Know what there like on a 90*+ day HOT.

[survivalshop]

If you get to the brass's pressure threshold ,with a powder charge , it won't take much of a temp change to show pressure signs with just about any powder out there.

I have an magazine , that talks about this powder , but its at work ,but will look it up & the Arthur was loading for 5.56 & 308 & I will have to read it again ,because I don't remember if he said it was temp sensitive or not .

Some powders can be real picky about temps .

[NoFail]

Yes seasprite I ordered brass from Midway on Friday when I checked for it, it came in stock again. I ordered 3 bags of 50 I think $18.79 a bag something like that. That's a good buy for the Winchester brass. They had  Hornady Match available now too, that was over $32 for box of 50, I just got the Winchester. I have a 100 box of 178 Amax now to work on later.

[seasprite]

If you get to the brass's pressure threshold ,with a powder charge , it won't take much of a temp change to show pressure signs with just about any powder out there.

I have an magazine , that talks about this powder , but its at work ,but will look it up & the Arthur was loading for 5.56 & 308 & I will have to read it again ,because I don't remember if he said it was temp sensitive or not .

Some powders can be real picky about temps .

I have to agree with you survivalshop seems like like I'm right on the edge with this load. I have Hodgdon's 2012 reloading magazine and the article they have in there doesn't mention anything about temp. sensitivity. I haven't seen anything else published about this powder maybe your article will be more in depth than what I've read. I did go over my load notes and here is what I came up with.

6/6/12

temp 85*

avg vel. 2642

6/30/12

temp 100*

avg vel. 2655

7/11/12

temp 95*

avg vel 2663

When I look at all the velocity data the 95* and 100* are pretty much the same but there is a definite difference between 85* and 95*. I'm hoping that my seating depth change is going to keep me on the safe side of things it looks like I should get about 30fps reduction by going this route.

Last time I was at the range out of 20 cases this is what I found checking for pressure 5 of them showed some cratering of the primer. 3 showed signs of the bolt and extractor trying to remove the spent case with to much pressure still in the chamber (bent rims) and the rest looked normal.

[seasprite]

Yes seasprite I ordered brass from Midway on Friday when I checked for it, it came in stock again. I ordered 3 bags of 50 I think $18.79 a bag something like that. That's a good buy for the Winchester brass. They had  Hornady Match available now too, that was over $32 for box of 50, I just got the Winchester. I have a 100 box of 178 Amax now to work on later.

<thumbsup> Can't wait to start seeing more of your load development.

[NoFail]

Yeah I know, I've been laying low since last time. I want to start again with the new brass. I'm thinking I'll try starting from 47.1 again but do the 3 shot groups like you doing. I already know I don't have pressure signs up to 48.1 so I won't do round robin. But maybe I'll load up to 48.3 or even 48.5 like you also suggested. Not sure I wan to go past that. I hope that chrono starts working well, it worries me what I saw from it the last time. I'll get new batteries for it maybe that was it I don't know. But it was a joke last time and I'm not happy with it right now.

[seasprite]

Yeah I know, I've been laying low since last time. I want to start again with the new brass. I'm thinking I'll try starting from 47.1 again but do the 3 shot groups like you doing. I already know I don't have pressure signs up to 48.1 so I won't do round robin. But maybe I'll load up to 48.3 or even 48.5 like you also suggested. Not sure I wan to go past that. I hope that chrono starts working well, it worries me what I saw from it the last time. I'll get new batteries for it maybe that was it I don't know. But it was a joke last time and I'm not happy with it right now.

What happened to your chrony? I know mine acts up sometimes but its mainly clouds & sun angle that play havoc on mine. The last time out I was only able to get one good string before a partly cloudy sky made it start reading shots when no one was shooting. I think it was reading the shadow from the clouds as they passed by. My understanding is for conditions you want either solid overcast or clear skies with a fairly high sun angle.

[NoFail]

I wish I knew, bro. It was a nice clear day maybe 75 F. setup looked ok. The thing drains batteries like a 6' diameter sewer line though, especially when using printer. They have a IR sensor upgrade for this model.

Could be sun angle I guess. Was acting stupid, lots of readings like 536 fps or 345 fps or mostly no readings at all. Pissing me off & helped screw my day and ammo with all work I put into it, & cost....

[seasprite]

Well I just walked in from the range and it was disappointing to the least my first group showed promise but it never did improve on later groups. My velocities were what I expected them to be with new seating depth of 2.815 but the ES and SD numbers were way to high. My avg. vel. 2630 ES 52 SD 25 don't know what happened <dontknow> In previous test this load group pretty good and showed better numbers across the chrony. Didn't show any pressure signs today so thats a plus but that was the only thing that looked good.

I have 40 rounds loaded at 2.790 seating depth that I'm saving for cooler weather to see how they do. So I guess I'm going to do a seating depth test for the 47.1gr powder load now and go from there.