N Jensen

I believe the problem might be how the upper and lower receivers fit. When the BCG moves to the rear the hammer is pushed down to re-set it. When this happens the hammer can't go down any further causing the BCG to very tight. Just not enough space between the hammer and the BCG being pushed up against the top of the upper receiver. Machining the bottom of the BCG is one way to fix it. Or looking at the hammer and provide a little more relief for the hammer to go further down. When pulling the action to the rear by the handle do you feel it get very tight feeling. One should not feel the hammer re setting at all. I had this same problem, if I put one upper on a different lower it would bind up. If the upper was on the original lower no issues. The other upper didn't care which lower it was attached to. If you talk to the trigger expert, they might tell you how to relieve the hammer to allow it go a little further down when the BCG goes over the hammer. Taking to much off the bottom of the BCG might not push the hammer down far enough. Hope this helps.

Abnormal wear, haven't seen anything yet and I stopped looking. I probably have a good 500 rounds through the 6.5 and about the same through the 308 upper. The AR 15 bolt has maybe 400 or so rounds through it. I sent the AR 15 BCG to a friend in FL to try out for awhile. I just don't see any binding at all, like I posted before with a fired case in the chamber and bolt closed. I could feel play in the bolt carrier and it moved slightly back in forth with no drag. I will assume that machine work for the rails in the upper is true/square with the machine work for the barrel nut and barrel extension. I know there will be people who don't think the idea is not worth while for a number of reasons. When I passed the idea by my shooting buddies, they all said it wouldn't work. I looked at the M 14 gas system and the piston and thought the same principle would work. Anyway, I'm on my way to Djibouti for 5 months, so no shooting for me. I still check the board when I have the time. Take care for now.

I've shot enough ammo now to tell you I have stop looking for any abnormal wear patterns. Also I checked for binding with a fired case inserted into the chamber and the bolt closed on it. With the upper by itself, I could easily move the carrier back and forth between fully fwd and to the ramp to unlock the bolt. With the high pressure gas entering the chamber area, the little bit of gas leaking by the piston would center it. I assuming it does anyway. The bolt was welded up with a stainless steel wire welder. The machined back down to a slip fit of .001. The dia of the piston increases by about .007. I have not tired to shoot ammo that has the minimum recommended powder charges, only near max loads. Also I did modify a AR 15 bolt and shot the following ammo through it without any problems, 55g ball, 77g LC LR, 69g Fed match, Black hills 77g and 80g match ammo. Yes I did send a US patent application in, it will take a year to find out if they decide if it's a improvement to the original design or not. Except for some fouling going fwd of the gas piston which cleans up easily, I have not seen any problems so far. I even tested 600 yd ammo after the 66 short range ammo was fired to foul the gas rings. When comparing 2ea ten shot strings modified bolt against and two ten shot strings with unmodified bolt. The ammo tested better with the modified bolt, the difference between the Hi, Low, Avg, ES, SD were a lot better than the bolt with gas rings. It was measurable and the results shooting at 600yds is better. I could clean the 600yd stage now when before I never could. I think I'm the only person to consider it and try it. If I find the gunsmith web page I will post it. He's a certified Acft welder, knows what he is doing besides being a gunsmith.

I was using 4350H in my 6.5 and after shooting short range and before 600yd line I could tell the action was sticky/binding when try to unlock it then when it was perfectly clean at the start of the rifle match. I don't think a one piece gas ring would solve the problem. My reasoning is if the action was super smooth without any fouling being added after more and more shooting was done the rifle would unlock the same each time.

In an effort to make the action super smooth. I removed the gas rings and welded the slot for the rings up. Then machined the area back down to a .001 slip fit into the bolt carrier. When holding the upper assy by itself the BCG will lock and unlock under its own weight by moving the muzzle slightly up or down. The action cycles just fine with no issues. I even installed a adj gas block and heavy buffer spring. The gas system pressure was cut down per the instructions and still the action cycles just fine. I have noticed an increase in accuracy at longer ranges as well. There is a slight dusting of fouling fwd of the gas ring after shooting 100 rounds. Even after shooting the 100 rounds the action moved just as freely as when it was clean. Been shooting this mod in a LR308 and a LR 6.5 creedmoor. So far I have been very happy with the accuracy increase as well. My LR 6.5 shot a 200-13X at 600yds. I have also cleaned the 600yd target with the LR 308 as well, I could not do this before I did the mod. I'm sure many will think the idea isn't good for a variety of reasons. Based on my experience in HP when a AR has vertical stringing it is usually because the BCG is not clean and well lubricated. If you are willing to try it, I like to hear from you. Also I mod a AR 15 Bolt as well and the action cycled just fine as well.

Crazy looking rifle, no personalty either. But if it shoots the score and wins, everyone will buy one. I used my auto loader and thought I did pretty good.

Was wondering what was a good score at 600yds in F-class shooting. Had a pair of 193 with a LR in 6.5.

Yes, the diopter helps one to focus on the front sight.

A little more info, the hooded rear sight comes in two sizes .520 and .595 you also will have a the ability for 1/2 min adj by turning the hood 1/2 turn to the next detente. You mention that the front sight is blurry? With the hood installed you can insert a diopter into the hood and that will help with the front sight focus. Check out this link http://www.bjonessights.com/SR.html the cost isn't bad to get a front sight in focus. Also installing the rear sight can be worked so the end result is good clicks up and down and without any play. Not many sights go together and end up without any play in them. If you have any play sided to side that can be felt the group on target will be big as well. Steps to fix it are out there and isn't that hard to do. I assume the windage knob has a spring and ball underneath it. If it does you are half way to a 1/2 min rear sight on your rifle, just buy the hood and slide. Good luck.

I don't think so, looks pinned to me. White oak arms can modify it for you. For a tid bit of info, way back when the AR-15 service rifles were replacing the M-14/M1A rifles for competitions Compass Lake Engineering originally glued the front sight assy on the barrel to prevent the tension of the pins from putting stress on the barrel. But, not every time a customer had the perfect rifle where the mech zero was actually no wind zero. To many rifles came back to be reset so the idea of set screws replacing the pins came about. Doesn't take much to adj the front sight to be perfect or within a click or two of windage adj. I'm sure white oak arms could do something for you on this. Also, talk to him about making it into a turn copy of the M-110 rifle to meet the NRA rules as a service rifle. New barrel, correct front sight clamp on, 4 rail 12 inch long hand gaurd. You have the rear sight carry handle, have him install a NM rear sight and pin it. You would have a reall good rifle then, it does cost but everything will be high quality in the end. Neil

I really liked the Capitan range, great rifle match as well. I couldn't make the rifle match this year, but trying to plan for next year though. I wanted to suggest a mod to the front sight assy. Instead of the pins that hold the assy on to the barrel. The holes are tapped and set screws installed. With a flat spot in the barrel the set screws are adj in or out on the respective side to move the front sight assy left or right. Which will help you have a mechanical no wind zero. Another possibility is the front sight assy was not made right and is not square vertically. That would be a reaching to find a problem but should be ruled out. My first LR308 I bought was a panther model that bought to get the parts only. I never planed on shooting it as a 308. I had white oak arms install a 6mm barrel and chamber it in wildcat cartridge based on a 22-250 case. It's a little shorter than a 6X, but works just fine. I did by another panther model and made it into a match rifle, White Oak arms turned the barrel down for a front sight and installed a hand guard that has a slot for the hand stop. With a A1 stock with a A2 but plate the LOP pull is just right for me. I did install a hyd buffer, heavy spring, and adj gas block. That combination really took recoil out of the rifle, with 155 MK with .500 BC it works real well at short range and the 175 or Berger 185 for 600yds. Keeping the gas rings wet with CLP after each stage the rifle shoots very well, in the 780's easily and cleaned the 600yd stage several times. I guess with all the problems you are having, I can see LR308 as a target rifle a big turn off for you. It's expensive I know, went through building 3 of them. Feeding problems of my creedmoor upper was hardest problem I ran across but I figured it out. Don't give up, Talk to John at White Oak Arms.

Sorry to hear of the problems with the rifle, sounds like the gas block is not perfectly vertical. A little left or right will make the no wind zero be way off. You mentioned "Capitan" range, would that be in NM? I shot there last fall with my 6.5 Creedmoor LR match rifle. The extractor breaking is odd, I never experienced that problem myself. I had shot some hot rounds where the case was stuck in the chamber, but the extractor ripped the rim of the case completely off. I reduced the load after that experience. Had a friend here had an issue with his LR308 barrel/chamber where the ammo was just to hot while in another rifle it was fine. DPMS replaced the barrel for him. One of my 3 match rifle uppers were assy by White Oak Arms by John. Have you considered talking to him about your problems? He might have some solutions for you. He has built some M-110 rifles and still may have some barrels on hand ready to install. Over all I had very good experience with the LR308 and 6.5 creedmoor guns that I have. I have shot both of them from 200 to 1,000yds without any issues. Just sorry to hear of all the issues you are having.

Shooting a 1,000yds accurately take some effort, rifle, ammo and the shooter has to be spot on. I have seen M-14 blow up on the 1,000 yd line with ammo to hot. You can push your gun only so far. A 1-10 twist will spin a 190g Mk just fine as well, 2500 FPS should be about the limit. Curious what your goal is, just to do it, been there done that or going to a competition?

The 168 MK is not suited for 1,000 yds, maybe out to 800yds only. The 175 at 2650 will make it to a 1,000 just fine. Varget 43.0, WW case, 210M loaded OAl 2.800 out of my LR308 24ibch was 2600FPS. No reason why 43.5 or 44.0 wouldn't work. Another bullet to try is the 185 Berger, it has a higher BC as well. I tried 43.5 varget with the 185 Berger and it was to hot, had one pierced primmer. But with a 20 inch barrel, getting a lot of speed is hard to do. The AMU used much hotter loads than I tried, but their budget is way more than I can afford.

Thanks for he tip. Will have to try it. Right now I use outboard gear box oil the BC and in the cam area and leave the lugs dry. Until I figure out something better I will keep putting a few drops of CLP into the vent holes before each string. Today I used the 308 LR in a palma practice match. I kept a high master avg overall, a 439-15x (800yds, 147-6, 900 yds 148-6, 1000yds 144-3X). I would normally use a Mod 70 with a 30 inch barrel and would probably would of shot a few point better overall. But considering a semi auto and a 24inch barrel it did pretty good. I just had to try it and see how it did.

Between being busy at work and out of town I missed the replies both of you have posted. The rifle are all LR308 rifles, just chambered in different cartridges. I’ve chronograph the ammo and I can tell the same ammo tested worse after 60-80 rounds are fired than when the action BCG is clean. I feel it has something to do with how well the action unlocks after each shot is fired, the more constant it is the better the rifle holds elevation at 600yds. I have seen BCG that are real dirty and without lube shoot high shots real bad but when cleaned and lube they shoot very well. I have heard the Army AMU team at Perry will sometimes put CLP lube into the gas ports to help remove/dissolve the carbon on the gas rings just before the next stage for better accuracy. I have tried this as well and the rifle does shoot better. Putting a few drops of CLP into the BCG is simple to do every so often in a day of shooting. I was just curious if anyone had notice the same issue or not. If so, what was the solution.

Wow, now I'm so corrected. Never thought this was such a big deal.

I had a feeding issue with my DPMS AR 10 in 6.5 Creedmoor when I first started shooting it. I don't know if my problem is the same as yours or not. My problem was when the new round started up the feed ramps the mag follower would tilt allowing the bolt to over ride the base of the cartridge and hit the side of the case. Making that round bent and unuseable. I found the solution in C-product 10 round Mags, however when I first tried them they did the same thing. The solution that I found to make them work was taking the spring out of each mag and bending the spring. I bent the very last half coil at each end only, not any coils in-between. When the spring is new the last coil is not long, i mean length wise like all the coils in-between. This half coil when new is parallel with the follower and the floor plate of the mag. I bent these two short coils at an angle like all the other coils. When I re-assembled the mags, my feeding problem was fixed. However, there has been one catch ever since I could not fix. If the cartridge for the 6.5 creedmoor was OAL of 2.790 to 2.800 in length it would feed fine. Hornady 123 ammo with an OAL of 2.700 would not feed. I only had 2 boxes of ammo to try, once done I never bought any more of it, I just hand load ammo to 2.795 OAL. Hope this helps you.

I like that post, today's sniper rifles will one day be tomorrows vintage sniper rifles. LOL

Your right, I never seen a off road car in a NASCAR race, good point. NRA has a tactical match rifle class which allows a scope on a target rifle, The match rifle class must have iron sights. I just never seen anyone show up at mid or long range match with a sniper rifle and win it. Granted the new f-class target is smaller than the HP target. I'm sure there are some very good f-class shooters would clean my clock on the range. But if one had to use factory ammo LRM118 or 852, Federal match 175/168 for the traditional 308 military sniper cartridge, he would be hard pressed to win.

This topic might fire up some people and I probably could get some heat on. But based on my experience shooting NRA HP (200, 300, 600 and Long range 800, 900, and 1000 yds) I have yet to see a person show up with a high dollar sniper rifle and win the rifle match at distance. Also, in today's competitive rifle matches F-class or HP it seems that the 308 in order for the rifle to win must have their own class. In other words the only way a 308 can win if everyone was shooting 308 rifles, like Palma matches and Tactical F-class 308. I can hear everyone screaming right now, shooting HP is not the same as a sniper rifle match where one has to determine distance while HP is known distance. A hit anywhere on a silhouette is a hit while in HP it has to be in the center all the time to win. A sniper rifle uses a scope while HP one has to use iron sights (service rifle sights or aperture sights on a match rifle). In HP one uses heavy shooting jackets slings, and mats. In sniper matches, not much gear is needed if any at all. I do have a DPMS AR 10 in 6.5 Creedmoor set up as sniper rifle. Very fun to shoot. At the 100/200 range I have people ask me about it. When I have a match rifle at the same range hardly no will ask me any questions about it. One rifle is cool looking and one is not. It would be interesting what everyone's thoughts are, take it easy one me.

HP is a lot of fun, anyone who has shot HP for a number of years are more than willing to help a new person out. There are so many levels of experience, I'm sure you would do fine. Your 20inch or 22 inch rifles will do fine at 600yds or even 1,000 yds. I only weigh cases for 600yds and beyond and if I don't have time to sort them, I just load ammo anyway. I don't keep any records other than a score book for current sight settings. I know a lot of real good shooters who just keep a sticker on the stock and write their elevation zero on that sticker. Heck, I don't even keep track how many times a case has been reloaded. I usually stay with the KISS principal. When I shot service rifle with my M1A my goal was to keep all my shots within the height of the ten ring. When I started to shoot bolt guns my goal was the same, but it was easier with a bolt gun. I started with my Ar 10 match rifle as a challenge and over time I wanted it to to be able to hold x-ring. It took some effort, but I'm mostly there. For a load to start with would be 43.0g of Varget, Remington 9 1/2 primer, 175g MK, Winchester or Remington case. That load in my DPMS Ar 10 24inch barrel was right at 2610 or so. Reading the wind is the hardest thing to master. The best aimed shot for the center will not be there if the blowing wind changes and you don't adj for it. HP is more than getting a rifle to shoot it's also beating the conditions you have to shoot in. In Vegas the wind blows all the time, having 2 to 5 or 6 minutes of wind on at 600yds is pretty normal. But everyone has to shoot in the wind.

In HP match rifle is one big class made of divisions of skill level, marksman thru High Master. All bolt action and semi autos match rifles are in one class but must have iron sights/aperture sights. Semi autos/bolt action with target scopes are in what is now called tactical match rifle class. High Master is the hardest class being avg score of 97% and higher. Carl Bernosky and David Tubb both have won the National HP matches each many times. Both are well above my skill level. Also David Tubb once used an SR 25 to win the nationals 10 or so years ago. There was at a time where a lot of people tried to make the Ar 10 Armilte into a match rifle, but they ran into so many problems and some could never figure out. Bolt stops breaking or feeding problems and accuracy issues. The word was out but people after seeing many others have problems didn't want to try it. Not many people shoot the AR 10 in HP because of it. About 6 years ago my friend had an AR 10 Armilite match rifle built in 6X and he shot very good with it. Although he had issues with it, but he made it work well enough to start beating me at 600yds, I was shooting an AR 15 in 223 with 80g bullets. On wind changes he was usually inside what I had, an 8 ring vs his 10 or 9 ring. Like the Jones, I had to move up. But I wanted to try the DPMS AR 10 as a starting point. Maybe have less of a problem making it work. My 1st one was in a wildcat 6mm, a 243 resizing die cut off .250, a blown out 22-250 case. Also a little shorter than a 6X case. I had zero problems from the start, accuracy, no feeding issues, and bolt stop that never broke. Both my friend and I are broad across the chest so the larger Ar 10 didn't bother us as a person who is not broad across the chest. I used an A1 but stock to shorten the LOP by an inch which also helped a lot. He bought a custom adj but plate assy to shorten the LOP and adj cheek piece as well. Both my Ar 10 DPMS are all stock except for the armilite 2 stage trigger, Krieger Barrels. White Oak Arms has the ability to make longer gas tubes, drilling the hole moved fwd lowers gas pressure in the barrel and to accommodate the longer barrel. The reason for working on the gas rings is that I found that when the bolt/carrier group was clean or very few rounds fired it shot a lot better at 600yds. During a 80 round match and using H4350 powder the fouling builds up on the gas rings casuing the action to stick/bind up a little. This little bit of binding I believed was causing me to shoot high shots at 600 yds. More so to me to think it just wasn't me or a cartridge not loaded right. Once I lowered the gas ring drag to next to nothing the vertical displacement became smaller. Keeping the BCG well lubed with CLP on the rings and 80w oil on the rails of the carrier ensured the BCH was very slick unlocking when fired. The hard part of doing this is hit and miss with the gas rings, to small the rifle would not function. So it took several gas rings over a period of time for each carrier to work. I mean each carrier as I have 3 match rifles. Buffer and buffer spring are stock DPMS items. The other part on accuracy is neck tension, the lower the better weigh all the cases for 600yds +/- .5 in weight. Powder charges all the same, spot on. then practice, practice, practice. Hope this answers some of your questions, I don't mind. I'm glad Ifound this form as it deals with AR 10's only. I'm sure armilte is a fine rifle, but my friend had issues dealing with them. Like getting the rifle to feed ammo, they would only talk about the issue only if he was using federal match ammo. So a wild cat round was nothing they wanted to deal with. Just my thoughts. Don't want anyone to think that I nick picked Armilite only, I know people had issues with their DPMS guns as well. Customer Service is what makes a good impression.

I can't get to my camera right now, might be a few days before I could take a few photos. You would be surprised how much one can put into aperture sights for competitive shooting. The rear sight (PNW) with Gehman aperture with LPSKI mount runs a little over 400.00 alone. Front/fore sight with a Diopter, Gehman adj aperture, 22mm sight and LIPSKI mount runs around 200.00. Believe me, there are more expensive rear sights available. The Warner rear sight runs 650.00 and that is before buying a mount or an adjustable irs. Most rear sight have 1/4 min click adj for both windage and elevation. Considering the cost in sights alone comes in what a pretty good 30mm target scope sells for. Some of the best scores are shot with iron sights. The winner of the National Matches in HP used Iron sights on a 6mm AR 15 match rifle, score 2391 points out of 2400 possible. While the tactical match rifle, a Tubbs 2000 bolt action with a target scoop had a 2387 out of 2400 points. Never would of thought a semi auto beats a bolt action scooped rifle.

I had not seen many people talking about match rifles so I thought to share a few photos of my DPMS AR 10. The upper was done by White Oak Arms. 26 inch barrel, gas port moved two inches out, and two stage trigger. I used a A1 but-stock to reduce LOP with a A2 but plate. The rear sights is a PNW with front sight is 22mm from Creedmoor sports, i used Lipski front and rear sight mounts. I heat treated the gas rings and by bending them smaller than originally to reduce drag on the bolt carrier when unlocking. The gas rings basically fill the space between the bolt and the carrier now. The Major problem when I first starting shooting it was that DPMS mags that never failed before now wouldn't work. Solved this by C-product mag and slight bend to both ends of the spring only. Accuracy is very good. 142MK at 600 yds, 40g H4350, Hornady brass with turned necks. Out of 20 shots fired at 600yds, the X-ring is a 6 inch circle and my average vertical displacement is having 16-17 shots being within the X-ring in height. Considering a .008 aiming error is 6inch on paper and using a sling and shooting coat for support. I feel the rifle is doing an honest 3/4 MOA accuracy, maybe less at times. At Perry this year i fired 199-11X was my best 20 shot string losing one point for the wind. I was wondering if anyone else is shooting a Ar 10 in HP matches.