N Jensen

Curious how many of you in competitions and what distance, HP, F-class. Curious I'm.

Being mostly a NRA XC shooter and long range, everything I learned about reading wind was on my own, nothing came from a military school of marksmanship. In the AF, just about 98% maybe higher qualify at 25 yds with a M-16. So what I did learn came from shooting with either the Marine Corps or Army shooter during rifle matches that I went to on my own. Once I obtained more skills, I took what I learned and learned even more on my own. But in the end, it's about putting the bullet in the center. All the very good shooters on a rifle range or match would be happy to explain what they used to determine what windage to use. In HP the target requires a very good rifle, good ammo, a shooter who can hold elevation and being able to read the wind. General rules I follow and pass on to others. - Majority of the time making any adjustment in windage will result in a better score than doing nothing. - The wind in the first 100yds has more effect on the drift of the bullet than wind down range - Wind has pick ups and let ups, one must know the bracket of windage required lowest amount and highest amount required before shooting. - A fishtail wind is the hardest wind to shoot in. - Just because it's calm doesn't mean wind won't change later on, cause it will. - Using a electronic wind meter is not the best tool to use, might even be the worst tool. - A wind calculator based on your bullet and velocity is a must to have or memorize it. - Mirage is indicator of speed and angle to relationship to the target. - Always compare the velocity of the mirage in the scope to the velocity before firing the next shot, it will determine if adding or subtracting windage for the next shot. - The faster you shoot the less windage changes you need to make. - Chasing the spotter is worst thing to do (Adjusting the windage based on where the bullet hit the target and not on what the wind is doing) - Everyone will eventually be caught with a wind change while aiming the rifle, but if ones plays a strategy and stages the shot up wind during a wind build up will result in more ten ring shots than doing nothing. - Finally, knowing the speed and angle of the wind to the target, is a must before firing the first shot. Simple tricks to determine angle of the wind to the target: Kick or throw some fine dirt in the air or even a handful of grass, look at the wind flag. But the most accurate is using your spotting scope. Focus on the target and back off on the focus to a point half way down range. If the wind is from the right, turn the scope left and watch the mirage moving right to left in the field of view. As you move the scope to the left you will notice the mirage to run slower and slower until it comes to a boil. That is the true angle of the wind to the target. Next is speed of the wind. Watching flags is a start, many range books has mph vs angle of the flag. Mirage which is slow moving and wavy in the scope is 3 to 8 mph, flat mirage moves very quickly is 15 to 20 MPH, Mirage in between is variable as the mirage flattens out, the wind is 10 to 15 mph. But you get the idea, slow moving mirage lots of waves is a slow and flat out mirage is MPH is fast. Out on the web is more about mirage and speed of the wind, USA Palma team has some good info available I believe. Put the two together and using a wind calculator/diagram will give you windage correction based on angle and velocity. The Marine Corps competition Rifleman's data book has a very good diagram from 200 yds to 1,000yds based on the 172 g bullet. As you watch the wind before it's your turn to shoot will help, the wind has let ups and pick ups. Record the velocity of the highs and lows you observed. As you shoot the first shot, this will help you determine where to start for windage before firing that first shot. In HP at 600yds to 1,000yds is also known as string shooting. One fires 2 sighters and 20 shots for record all in a row, or string. As you shoot the wind changes, the more the wind changes the more windage adjustment is required. To help myself determine a correction in the wind, I remember what the velocity of the mirage was before I fire the shot and look at it again after the shot is fired. Is the wind velocity the same? If so and I guessed the wind correctly I have an X on target. Before I fire the next shot, I again compare the mirage velocity to what it was after the previous shot. Is it the same or not? If the mirage is moving quicker, one needs to add windage. Remember, I said to pre record the estimated lowest windage and estimated highest amount of windage needed. If the range was 3 1/2 mins to 7 Min's, the windage was at 4 1/2 mins for the x-ring shot. This where experience comes in, just how much an increase relates to the correction needed. But doing nothing is worse than doing something, so adding a minute of wind to 5 1/2 would be a good choice. Was the mirage equal to the fastest observed during prep time? If so put on 7 mins of wind and shoot. Knowing the variables, watching the mirage pick up and slow down will help you determine what to do next. These basic questions of what was the mirage doing before, after and before the next shot and where the shot was on target will help you determine to take windage off or put it on. The basic strategy in HP is shoot quickly and reduce the amount of windage adj needed during the 20 shot string. I normally shoot 20 rounds in 12 minutes, the guy who takes 18 minutes has to make more changes. The ten ring at 600 yds is 2 MOA. If the wind is building up set the windage to hit the target on the wind side of the target, Doing this will allow while aiming the rifle a cushion if the wind continuous to build pushing the bullet into the center of the target. Once the wind has max out in velocity and mirage observed in the scope, then park the bullet on the downward side of the ten ring and let the wind drop off and move the bullet back into the center. That is a lot of info, can't type any more. I can add more latter if questions are asked.

Good chance the brass was fired through a machinegun. The head space is on the long side. Do you have a case measuring device? If the brass was fired in a M-14 or bolt gun it would measure around .005 in growth from when it was new. Machinegun brass is like .015, unless the seller knows for sure it was fired in NM M-14 or match rifle, most likely is from a machinegun. Not worth the trouble.

I can type a little on wind reading, but forum to use? General discussion?

Ok, the idea of this thread has been beat up pretty good, in both directions. Again, I apologize for pulling the chain so to speak. 1st time for the presidents 100 was in 1984, and several times after that, seems so long ago. I was in the USAF and worked on the U-2 at Beale AFB. After that, Predator drones at Creech AFB and now as a civilian. Matter of fact I signed the release for flight in the maintenance forms for the first air to air UAV drone against a Iraq Mig during southern watch. The drone lost and was blown out of the sky, acft had total flight time of 150 hours. All the T-shirts, jackets, flags, and other souvenir mementos for the flight was lost as well. Maybe the Iraqi's picked it and kept it. High Power has two groups, service rifle and match rifle. One must use a service rifle M-1, M1A, M-16 A2, M-110 generally with all the NM mods done. The NRA Match rifles have better sights, more adjustments for LOP and hand stop, lighter triggers. Come in all different calibers, from 6mm to 7mm. 308 cal are not that competitive unless shooting against another 308. Barrel lengths are generally 26inch, some longer, not much shorter maybe 24 inch. All NRA HP matches require the use of iron sights, only in special matches are scopes are allowed. Service rifle class, must use the sights the rifle was designed with. People do add a hood, and old shooters add a diopter inside the hood so they can focus on the front sight. Skill with the rifle wins the rifle match, both a NM AR 15 or match rifle shoot dang good at 1 MOA out to 600yds. There is a tactical match where one can shoot scope and F-class with a scope. So there is options to compete depending on your gear. The NM course of fire is a 500 point agg. 10 shots standing at 200yds, slow fire in 10 minutes. 10 shots RF sitting at 200 yds in 60 sec, a mag reload is required. 10 shots RF prone at 300yds, 70 sec with a mag reload req. 20 shots slow fire at 600yds time limit 20 min, one shot at a time. I could go on with more details, but in the end. HP is not easy, it takes work. It starts at 0800 hrs and usually done around 3PM. The most one shoots is 80 rounds and it's the whole day at the range. If it's windy, 20-25 mph wind, you still shoot, it rains - you still shoot until it turns into a down poor. I have seen about 13 M1As and a couple of AR 15 blow up on the range over the years. The Last one was a M-14 All guard shooter, blew it up on the 1,000yd line at Arnold AFB HP range the Army Guard runs on the base. He did get a 8 ring I remember. Youngest Civilian Distinguished Rifleman was 15 years old out of AZ. I believe he is on the Army team and moved to Colorado Springs to train there. Dang good shooter. Lots of stories. In the end, you just have to try it.

Sorry, in the last bit, I did apologize. No I'm not going to change my opinion, don't tell me ant funny either. so don't get all high on the mountain on me. I have been shooting in competitions for some 40 years, High master both XC and long range, Presidents 100 tab holder, distinguished rifleman badge holder, member of the 792 and 495 club, won the Ca state service rifle championship, Paul and White trophy at the national matches, won regional championships as well. I probably have more experience in this game of accuracy then most, yes I have my opinion and ant going to change.

Sorry FaRKle! I don't take any marching band directions from anyone, hey let me know when you win a rifle match with that short barrel gun. Yep I'm call you out, I have seen 100yd high masters wonders before, but they can't win jack at distance. Sniper school that encourages you to take a hack saw and cut the barrel off for more accuracy, WTF stupid idea is that. But if lead is flying both directions and that's what is needed, I hope a hack saw is in his mess kit then. But I'm sure the gunsmith wouldn't approve of that. About the video, nope I never saw it and don't care to, would say after shooting a lot of rounds, eventually the lucky bullet will hit something. Also, hope you have a lot of pencils, try a hammer, you get even smaller chunks of wood and then there easier to break them. Can't believe I'm typing this LOL. All of you who think that short barrels are where it's at and so forth, I challenge you to go an actual rifle match and shoot either the F-class (a scope, bipod and rear bag) or use the irons sights and try your luck out and see how you do. The shooting sports USA an on line magazine list all the rifle/pistol matches. Look it over, plenty of matches. http://www.nrapublications.org/ssusa/ Take the time to ask questions of the folks who are they, check out their equipment and rifles. The guy who wins the match will have the most experience on the range, probably over 15 or 20 years of competitions. The truly good ones have over 30 to 40 years of long range shooting, and they ant shooting a short barrel gun unless it's in the service rifle class. I apologize to you in advance, I'm sure your convictions have merit but take the time try a game of long distance shooting. It's not easy, but its fun.

Sorry, not going to buy into that short barrels are more accurate than a longer barrel because they are little stiffer in the morning. Not going to use a long barrel gun for CQB arena but I'm not going to use a short barrel at distance. Yeah, bench rest is boring no they don't use a semi auto either. There are far more variables why a short barrel was better than something 2 inches longer. The longer barrel could of sucked and short barrel could of been just better barrel. It could of been why longer barrels are more accurate because next time you get a short barrel that sucks and the longer barrel is real good barrel. If you want a neat little short barrel gun, then get one. If you want to shoot longer distance and be accurate, better get a longer barrel. That will not change.

FaRKle! And still your short barrel is still a short barrel accuracy wonder for a couple hundred yards, why don't put a pistol barrel on your gun and make it even better then, leave enough room for the gas system block. It still is a oh hum gun, not much more than good dirt blaster. Anything shoots pretty good at 100yds, at distance is where it counts. If a 1,000yds is far for you to shoot, try a 600yd match and try and beat a longer barrel rifle.

Maybe in bench rest at 100yds - 200 yds at short barrel is better, but I never seen short barrel rifle win anything at distance unless it was against another short barrel rifle. Suggest you go to actual rifle match at 1,000 yds with your short barrel rifle and let me know how you did against rifle built for accuracy at 1,000yd. Anyone there with a Palma rifle (30inch barrel) would be happy to out shoot your short barrel rifle.

Not sure what your end goal is or should I say how much accuracy you are looking for. Longer barrels help, 24 inch or custom match grade barrel 26 inch, two stage trigger (mentioned before) and good ammo, either hand loads or Fed match or equal quality. Hand guard that allows the barrel to be free floating. I also modified my bolt that I had mentioned in another post. I eliminated the gas rings, by welding up the slot and machine it to .001 slip fit back into the carrier. The action was then super smooth in operation, the rifle cycles just fine and accuracy increased as well. Very pleased with the rifle, was able to clean the 600yd NRA target when before with gas rings I couldn't. There a lot of people didn't think much of the idea, but it's up to you in the end. Good Luck.

After reading through the post I would have to say you still have an issue with not enough gas pressure to cycle the action or you have a binding issue. Meaning that there is to much resistance allowing the BCG to cycle fully and positively. The 308 round has a lot of gas pressure to cycle the action. Is the gas port big enough and aligned with the gas block, is the gas tube fully inserted into it. While holding the trigger fully to the rear, and pulling the BCG back to the rear at the same time, do you feel stiff/binding has the hammer is reset? It should be the same resistance when pulling the BCG to the rear while the trigger is not touched. If the resistance is less you have a problem with either the lower or the trigger. Double feeding usually is a mag problem, but if the BCG is not or barely goes back far enough to pick the next round it might not have enough speed to strip the round off cleanly. One could try having the same amount of dummy rounds in the mag and manually pull the BCG to rear and let go and see if the ammo feed or not. If it works fine manually. You still have a gas or binding issue to resolve..

I had White Oak Arms build my 6.5 creedmoor upper. Krieger barrel 26 inch, gas port moved fwd 2 inches. Shoots dang good. My only problem I had with it was all my mags that worked with my 308 upper would not feed ammo into my 6.5 C upper. Took awhile to find a fix for it. I've shot it out to 1,000 yds, no problems.

The piston idea makes the action super smooth as well, no drag with the gas rings or build up on them. Having just a piston without rings works within the BCG as well. I modified my bolt by removing the gas rings and having it welded up and then machined back down to a .001 slip fit back into the carrier. The rifle functions great and saw an increase in accuracy as well.

Sounds good. Shoot what works.

Sounds like the ammo is just to hot for your rifle. I believe the short stroking of the action is due to the excessive pressure causing the case to stick in the chamber. All the energy of the bolt carrier trying to unlock and extract the case has been expended and there is not enough energy left for a full stroke of the action. As you shoot more ammo and things get hot, the problem becomes apparent do to heat expansion of the metal and carbon build up in the bore. The last time I shot LC ammo M 118 in my rifle I bent the bolt stop while federal match worked fine, no issues ever. The difference in ammo is a lot. First the LC ammo uses a tar like sealant around the bullet and the neck of the case. When this ammo sits a for years the neck tension becomes super high compared to Fed match ammo without the tar sealant. Then a 173 FMJ compared to a 168 MK one is harder than the other. If you have a bullet puller try see how much effort it takes to pull a bullet compared to Fed match ammo. I'm sure LC M-80 ammo is made the same way with sealant. I figure the high pressure comes from the extra force needed to push the bullet out changes the pressure curve, it peaks a lot quicker than normal, resulting in stuck cases . In my case, very high BCG cycle velocity that it produced and bouncing off the buffer and slam back into my bolt stop. Much harder than what fed match would do.. I would suggest you try and seat the bullet deeper into the case, say .015 to .020 and break that seal and give the bullet a chance to bust out of the case before getting jammed into the lands of the rifling. Seating bullets a little deeper was used a lot on M 118 ammo during the 600yd slow fire stag to help lower the SD in velocity of the ammo and keep vertical displacement between the 10 ring instead of the nine ring. I was also curious if none military ammo work fine in your rifle. Give a try, not hard to due and takes very little time to do it.

Looking at Hogden website BLC 2 would work fine with good FPS with the 175. Ball powder would measure very good as well. I would go to the max right off the bat, Start at 44.0 g and go from there. Good luck.

I used varget 43.5, 175MK, 9-1/2 and ww case. OAL length 2.795. Shot great to 1000yds just fine. H4895, 42.5 with a 168 or 175 would work just fine.

The Marine shooting team were responsible for the double lug M-14/M1A rifle. Only a Marine armorer back in the 1980's could tell you how they came up with the idea. The Army team never went with the double lug, but only the single lug as far as I know. Springfield came out with a rear lug receiver early 90's I think, maybe in 1993 or 1994. A lot of M1A guys building rifles had no problem welding a lug to the rear, not many would weld under the area where the barrel screws on for good reason. Not many people have the skill to want to weld under the receiver and put there name to it. I believe that a few companies have sold double lug receivers, they were high dollar items. Adding a front and rear lug to a receiver can be done and they are a few still around that can do it. One guy came up with a smarter way and no welding was to make the lug to slip between the barrel shoulder and the front of the receiver kind of like a recoil lug on a Rem 700. Very easy to do if one is confident installing a M1A barrel in the first place. He is now known for Ar-15 rifles out of AZ area, Had some books with his name on the cover as well. Just can't think of his name right now. Bedding the double lug receiver can be done in either a wood stock or McMillan stock. Bedding a double lug gun is one of the hardest guns I ever did. I put a lot of thought into before I started to grind away on a 400 dollar McMillan stock. But it turned out great. I have done only two double lug guns out of all of them. Like I said before the Army team never did go the double lug and their guns shot just as good as the Marine's rifles and with only a single lug. A single screw added to a rear lug gun would help a lot. It removes the trigger group from the sole purpose of keeping the gun in the stock. Adding a screw in the rear lug and have the trigger lock down tight will shoot just as good as a double lug. The bedding job has to be dang good, not many people know how to do them anymore. Then installing the gas system correct helps a lot as well. To tight and it bends the barrel, gun shoots high about 10 to 15 min worth, you can't even get a 100yd zero if done wrong. A lot of info. If you want photos of a double lug and a good bedding job, I can send them to you. Email me at LR30338@cox.net . Neil

Yep, a loaded M1A in a plastic stock ant going to shoot worth crap compared to an out of the box AR 308. How much do you want for it? I don't need the scope or mount, I have been thinking of building a M1A with a McMillan top of the line sniper stock, Then Glass bed and do everything else to it. The problem making it worth while to do is getting the rifle at a good price. During the years I shot HP with the M1A from 1982 to 1998 or so I must have shot about 80,000 rounds down range. I now shoot the big AR in 308, 6.5, and 6mm match rifles in HP matches since about 2004 or so. Can't beat the accuracy with little work needed to get there. Big difference in guns, but I still have my M1A as the SHF gun with plenty of 852 and M118LR on hand.

Sell your M1A? Once you have one, why sell it? I have a doubled lugged one in a McMillan service rifle stock. Shoots great. Is your M1A glass bedded and all tricks done to the rifle? It's hard to beat a M1A that is built correctly. But I do admit that a 308 AR will shoot darn good without any work at all. For the M1A, not many people know how to glass bed them correctly and do all the other steps to make it shoot good. I have done bunches of them, double, single lug or std receiver. All of them shoot good when done properly.

I would use Varget, for 168, 175 MK, a little slower than 4895 for the heavier 175. 43g with a 175 was right at 2600 -2610 with WW case and Fed 210. As for the 173g M118 bullet I would sell them at a gun show, unless you just got to shoot them for some reason, they are not the great bullet one thinks. In the late 1980's LC stop the practice of overhauling the machinery to produce the white box NM ammo for Camp Perry. From that point on the white box NM ammo was history and brown box M118 sucked. Everyone would get their M118 and pull the bullet and stick a 168MK on top and then it shot good. The 173 bullet in the M118 ammo sucked so bad that M852 ammo was produced (LC case with a 168MK instead of the 173) to keep the military teams happy and produce good scores at HP matches. Still the 173g bullet became even worse, so the military lawyers came up with the decision that a hollow point bullet that will not expand on impact was within the LOA or Geneva Convention rules. Then the M118LR was born, a 175 MK designed to stay supersonic at 1000yds and have the same trajectory as the 173g bullet and saved all the sniper scopes from being replaced. Best of all the accuracy was back. All this happened because the employees and management at the LC plant didn't give a crap about producing good bullets and ammo for the sniper out there.

For the 1-10 twist, you can shoot any weight bullet you want from 125 to 200g bullets. For VLD bullets go to Berger web sight for more info. For the 308 AR I would stick with 155, 168, and 175 MK for cycling of the BCG. The 1-10 will shoot 185 Berger and 190 as well, but would recommend a heavy spring and Hyd-buffer on the rifle and an adjustable gas block to cut down on the gas pressure.

Djibouti, the horn of Africa from what I have seen is one very poor country. VERY hot in the summer I have been told, right now in the 80's. The wind always blows in from the ocean in the afternoon and is dead calm at night. Big refuge camp not far from the city along a dirt road to an alternate airfield. The Navy runs the base, speed limit is exactly 6 mph on base no exceptions traffic court every Monday, passengers in the back of a gator is not allowed. One must stop for 3 sec, not anything less at a stop sign before proceeding. No excuse for parking permit not displayed correctly. Other than that, 2 beers are available each night at the 11 degrees North Club. They don't keep count, not bad otherwise.

I said before I haven't seen any wear on the new machines surface nor in the BC. When the high pressure gas enters the cavity, it would leak by the small area between the two parts. I think when this happens, the high pressure gas provides a cushion of air around the piston and not letting it touch the wall inside the BC. The original patent drawings showed that the small dip after the gas rings was to allow powder residue to collect there. Is it possible it was designed without gas rings and the gas rings were then later designed into it as the military wanted it that way? Just a thought, I still have several months to go before I leave Djibouti.