PA10 Nitrated 18", NB BCG, Gen 2 observations...

mley1 · July 9, 2018

The pics aren't showing up for me. I use Varget as well for my loads. I'm using 44.7grns under a 168grn Barnes TTSX.

Jsnake711 · July 9, 2018

Not sure why the images aren't working?.. Has any one chronograph this rifle yet?

I'm looking at working up a Sierra match king load next.

bfoosh006 · July 10, 2018

I have been so busy with all the other projects, chronographing is on the list.... but I want to do a few barrel makes and lengths, specific to the caliber... IE 6.5CM Criterion 22", PSA 20", and now a DSG Arms ( Ballistic Advantage ? ) 22".... and a .308 18" PSA , 18" Criterion, 20" PSA.... and in .308, there are nitrated, SS , and Nitrated SS barrels.

I have decently large assortment of both calibers... waiting .. for time to test.

Testing that many rds, from so many barrels is a whole weekend event... logging data after every factory rd and having to stop every 20 minutes ( range rules at the 100yd line, so as to allow new shooters time to setup targets.. ) can be a chore.

I might just break it down into sub sections.

mley1 · July 10, 2018

Jssnake711, My 18" SS PA10 is getting a five shot average of 2562fps with 44.7grns of Varget under a 168grn Barnes TTSX in Federal cases, and using Winchester large rifle primers.

Edited July 10, 2018 by mley1

98Z5V · July 30, 2018

On 7/9/2017 at 7:00 PM, bfoosh006 said:

I am going to not include the older BH... simply because it is older, and who knows if the current production shoots as well from this rifle.

I still have numerous other .308 / 7.62x51 I will try, I only had those on hand at the moment.

IMHO...
The Hornady 168gr ELD Match easily shot its group.
The Hornady SM 155gr seems like a good low-cost to accuracy round
And the Hirtenberg is certainly worth checking more thoroughly.

On 7/9/2017 at 8:00 PM, bfoosh006 said:

Thanks.. I am a ammo whore. I feel compelled to try some of everything in case I am missing out ! Lol

For that matter... If you guys are interested in a LOT of factory ammo chrono'd data for 16" 9MM , 16" & 20" Ar15...Let me know.

I am more then happy to share.

My fit is very acceptable... but I am going to snug it up with some of the X-Shims... I have used them before on AR15's, but had to order some for the PA10.
I realize most people say upper to lower fit doesn't matter... but that makes no sense to me.... IMHO that is like saying a loose stock to action doesn't matter.

http://varmintlight.com/x-shim-kits/

On 7/10/2017 at 9:01 AM, bfoosh006 said:

I have had some on numerous other AR's with no deformation after hundreds of rounds. And just use enough to snug up the fit, so as not to put unneeded stress on the upper to lower pins.

On 7/10/2017 at 12:31 PM, bfoosh006 said:

Lol... yea the scope and PRS added some weight... but that's ok by me... it will make any bench shooting easier !

On 7/24/2017 at 5:59 PM, bfoosh006 said:

Ok... finally got some time to install the SLR adjustable gas block ... easy job, Right ?

I bought the dimpling jig, so truthfully the SLR block install should be very easy.....

Enter PSA's Freefloat tube barrel nut and the PSA gas tube..... ( pics will follow )

I haven't built a lot of AR's , but, I do know the barrel nut should NOT force the gas tube into the uppers gas tube "hole" top portion.
The gas tube is in full contact with the front of the barrel nut... enough so that it has eroded / scrapped away the finish.

Ultimately, IMHO it would have wore a hole / weak spot into the gas tube.... it has that much contact.
The top portion of the gas tube end, where it engages the gas key, also shows more wear then the bottom with just my eyes.

Also, I do know that you want the gas tube to move "somewhat" freely through the uppers hole. Any binding of the gas tube can affect overall / consistent performance and accuracy... ( you don't want ANY binding ) you really want the rifle to consistently return to battery the same way every time.

The photo shows the spot where the contact is , the little wear spot... the larger edge wear is from me sliding the rail free.

More photos will follow... at this point I am going to dremel down the area that has no contact with the rail and see how well the gas tube fits after that.

On 7/24/2017 at 6:05 PM, bfoosh006 said:

Oops... gas port was centered perfect with the gas block... as near as I can tell minimum gas port size is .0725+.

No barrel dimpling, just screwed tight.

On 7/24/2017 at 8:23 PM, bfoosh006 said:

Normally I wouldn't dremel but it is a cheap aluminum barrel nut and handguard.

This is how close...notice how one end you can see light through... and the other end you cannot.
I ended up having to shave the top its full length... whoopee !!

I will post photos of the after the fix later. Hand assembled shows much better clearance.

On 7/25/2017 at 7:10 AM, bfoosh006 said:

Basically I did make a flat.
And IMHO, I think it was really about the PSA gas block and gas tube .. after installing the SLR block and a higher quality gas tube the clearance is much better.

Kind of excited to try the adjustable gas block.

I will also try the heavy 9.3oz buffer with the gas block fully open to mimic the OEM configuration... and adjusted lower.

I hope the standard rifle buffer works best, ( with the SLR block ) since there is no reason to have a lot of mass banging around

So much better, that I have to wonder if the gas tube cant was also involved in the original PSA charging handle binding problem !?
I will check later to see if the PSA charging handle and BCG no longer binds up so bad.

Next... the bolt catch paddle is banging the upper ...

Dremel time for the back side of the paddle !!

On 7/25/2017 at 7:35 AM, bfoosh006 said:

Clearance now...

On 7/25/2017 at 7:45 AM, bfoosh006 said:

I did have to grind the whole top of the barrel nut, front to back, that's how much interference there was.
Grinding the front only just moved the contact point further down the nut.... clear to the receiver end.

On 7/26/2017 at 6:51 AM, bfoosh006 said:

Thanks Guys !!

$600 .308 Truck gun at that !!

On 7/29/2017 at 2:44 PM, bfoosh006 said:

Where to start.... Adjustable gas block, what a difference ! I whole heartedly recommend the SLR adjustable gas block, it truly transformed the abrupt cycling PA10 into a smooth cycling .308 rifle. Ended up using the 5 clicks from fully closed setting, 10 more clicks ( opening the gas flow more ) were available.

I used the standard weight AR15 rifle buffer for the accuracy and function testing first

4 clicks failed to cycle 2 of 20 rounds of FGMM .308 168gr, and 5 of 40rds of ZQI, 2 of 20 Horn. TAP "AR" ( ... 5 clicks performed 100% with the FGMM, ZQI ) The Hornady TAP "AR" needed 6 clicks to cycle with the KAK 9.3oz heavy rifle buffer.

Interestingly, at one point while firing the Horn. TAP AR round , I adjusted the gas block one additional click wider, and the point of impact for the next 10rds shifted 2 inches down and 2 1/2 inches left ?! .... It is just as possible that I "shifted" as well... but 10rds makes it hard for me to think it was just me.

ZQI also performed miserably accuracy wise ... again.

At 5 clicks and the rifle fired approx. 300rds trouble free. ( Except the later heavy buffer tested 2 Horn. rds. , with the standard rifle buffer it was fine )

The brass caseheads no longer show smear marks from the ejector, which is directly attributable to the "slower" ( milliseconds slower ) speed of the action. Pressure levels have dropped more prior to extraction because of this... so the case has a moment more to time to lose the chamber gripping PSI.

The new replaced by me ..firing pin retaining cotter key is not bent ( I forgot to mention this earlier, the OEM PSA cotter key was getting bent from the violent cycling !?!? , I had a replacement on hand so changed it out )

The rifle now feels like a 7.62x39 AR.... so it is a pleasure to shoot !!

I haven't compared group measurements yet ( from the OEM configuration compared to the current configuration ) ... but I did see improvement, for the most part across the board.

I will add.... the GEN 3 Magpul PRS's recoil pad.. while "softer" then the old models, needs the sharp edges radiused more..... by rd 300, it was biting into the shoulder more then needed... I will fix that !

Later on I will post the various ammos groups.

For now, and on a completely different subject / caliber.... if any of you were lucky enough to get some RUAG 5.56 SS109 HC, it really shoots very well ....9rds 100yds, benched scoped bagged...

Next photo ... 10rds ADI M855, same benched..

Last .223 /5.56 group.. 20rds Fed. Tipped Varmint 50gr, rapid fire, same BSB'd

page 3

98Z5V · July 30, 2018

On 7/29/2017 at 3:21 PM, bfoosh006 said:

1st Photo....FGMM 168gr... Oddly, the rifle prefers , slow methodical shooting with this ammo.

2nd photo ...Reasonably rapid fire... ( bang, back on target, bang ) produces large groups ... not all ammo did this.

3rd photo.... GGG 2013 Ball.... GGG preferred to be rapid fired....

4th photo.... as well as the XM80 Ball, rapid fire.

Maybe shouldn't drink so much coffee and smoke so many cigs, prior to accuracy testing.... Lol

On 7/29/2017 at 3:31 PM, bfoosh006 said:

1st photo ..... MEN 2016 Ball

2nd photo .....MEN 2016 ball again

3rd photo.../ Aus. Outback 168gr SMK

4th photo.....Hornady TAP "AR" .... this is the Heavy Buffer group that shifted after "one more click of gas "....first 6 , top right, added click, bottom left 5.... ( Rifles are fussy !! )

On 7/29/2017 at 7:31 PM, bfoosh006 said:

I am with you, I kind of dream of being fast and accurate.... Lol

2-3 slow breathes. ( spelling )

On 7/29/2017 at 7:33 PM, bfoosh006 said:

Thank you, I am also curious if others have similar issues.

I am tempted to order up a complete 20" upper to look at.. ( and for spare parts )

On 7/29/2017 at 7:51 PM, bfoosh006 said:

1st photo.... M118LR

2nd photo... M118LR

3rd photo... BH 175gr TMK

And I just realized I forgot to shoot the Hornady 155gr Steel Match !! Looked at a group ... mislabeled it ... and then saw the mag full of Steel Match !! Arrgh.

On 7/29/2017 at 8:46 PM, bfoosh006 said:

OOPS.

On 7/30/2017 at 3:12 PM, bfoosh006 said:

Survialshop...

"Are you using the Armalite AR 10 Buffer system ? "

This one from PSA....http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-pa10-a2-rifle-buffer-tube-kit.html

"Depends on if it was sighted in with the Tap Ammo or are you saying g it changed after the Gas system adj. . "

POI changed after adjusting one click more open.

"Doughtful Chamber pressure changed by small adj. to redirected propellant gas through Barrels Gas Port , Chamber pressure has already dropped by the time the Buulet passes the Gas Port . Action may be loosening up from round count , breaking in , more or less . "

Agreed about chamber pressure... I should have said less gas being used to yank the case from the chamber while the chambered round is still at high pressure... so the "slower" cyclic action of the BCG is "allowing" the case more time ( milliseconds ) before extracting.

"Sounds like FP over travel , could be a Machining issue , out of spec Bolt . The FP retaining pin is only to hold it in place , don't think it should touch it , the FP has stop flange for that purpose & it should stop correctly by the machined surface or flange inside the Bolt . "

Interesting... I will have to look into this more. FWIW, No primers appeared pierced, and for the most part looked "normal". ... I will say the Hirt. cases had pretty "deep" firing pin strikes.

On 7/31/2017 at 7:41 AM, bfoosh006 said:

You guys are 100% correct... In my haste, I said Sprinco Orange and meant Red.... and the rifle buffer is indeed a PSA PA10 buffer length.. ( shorter then a AR15 rifle buffer ) In the mods could change the posts to avoid confusion , I would appreciate it.

On 7/31/2017 at 9:10 PM, bfoosh006 said:

Just an FYI.... Apparently Magpul makes a different MIAD Gen 1.1 Type 2 hand grip with taller backstraps for the PA10.... I have ordered one up, as well as some of the Brownells $10 AR10 metal mags to try out.

"* NOTE: This TYPE 2 Kit uses taller backstraps for optimized fit with certain 7.62x51 receivers such as the Armalite AR-10A/B/T, DPMS LR308, KAC SR25, LaRue OBR, LMT .308 MWS, Palmetto PA10, and S&W M&P10."

https://www.magpul.com/products/miad-gen-1-1-grip-kit-type-2

On 8/2/2017 at 7:01 PM, bfoosh006 said:

This.... at this point I would not buy more Brownells 20rd mags at even $5 a mag.... even if a little filing at the latch helps.

I just received mine, unloaded, ....width 1.0645..... snug fit in magwell.....with bolt closed, locks in well , .... does remove freely ( not quite drops free ).

Loaded 20rds easily..... loaded width 1.099... tight fit in magwell.... have to VERY FIRMLY smack the bottom to get it to lock in ( even after filling some of the OAL of the leg off of both the front and back of the follower..... and it will not drop free, ( while fully loaded.. period. )

I will try to lightly file the mags latch area, in order to make insertion easier.... but, I think the ultimate problem is the feedlip spread, since unloaded it snapped into place easily.

Function was 100% hand cycled.

On 8/7/2017 at 10:20 AM, bfoosh006 said:

Ok... while I am happy with the rifles performance, eventually I will want better accuracy. Criterion, Krieger, Bartlein barrels or such..... 18" 1n10 twist or a 20" maybe.

What barrel spec's ( DPMS ? ) should I keep an eye out for ? .... and will the PA10 Bolt work with what barrels ?

For that matter, I would like a spare BCG or bolt in general... PSA is almost always out of stock, so what other ones are compatible ?

I wish PSA wasn't so "secretive" about the various parts and such....

Thanks ahead of time !

On 8/7/2017 at 11:04 AM, bfoosh006 said:

And..... Does the JP Bolt and Firing Pin work as well in the PA10 ( a lot of places say the Barrel is headspaced for the JP Bolt )

http://jprifles.com/buy.php?item=JPBC-EB308HP

On 8/9/2017 at 5:51 PM, bfoosh006 said:

So, I ordered another upper... in SS.. 18" ( one of the two will be a parts donor to my better barrel.....) between the 2, which ever is less accurate will receive the new barrel.

On 8/11/2017 at 11:48 PM, bfoosh006 said:

Exactly !! Honestly, I have wanted a truck gun ( preferably the nitrated upper ) and while the accuracy is good... I really want better "general" accuracy.

So which ever upper is the lesser will be the parts donor for the better barrel.

My M21 and My Krieger barreled AR15 will shoot most all ammo "better" ( those barrels have made me an addict to accuracy ) ... they both have ammo they hate, but for the most part there is a general improvement in overall accuracy ... that is what I'd like with a better quality barrel.

The issue with the M21 is it only holds great accuracy for about 150rds before the groups open up ( seems to be related to the gas piston and fouling )... a good cleaning will restore the accuracy, but the Krieger AR15 doesn't do that.... I am hoping the AR platform in .308 ( with a decent barrel and a little finessing.. trueing the receiver face and a properly headspaced bolt ) will yield the results I would like.

At this point, I am strongly considering a 18" or 20"Criterion rifle length gas. The price is good and the reputation is very good.

pg 4

98Z5V · July 30, 2018

On 8/14/2017 at 8:08 AM, bfoosh006 said:

Old Sarge..

Currently I am using a Primary Arrms 4-14x44... IMHO it is a heck of a deal for a Front Focal plane scope.

http://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-4-14x44mm-riflescope-acss-hud-dmr-308-223-reticle-pa4-14xffp308

The mount is just as good.
I have numerous that I have been using for years.

On 8/15/2017 at 5:56 AM, bfoosh006 said:

1lb 7oz at least... so with the mount I imagine close to two lbs.... heavy to be sure, but it is FFP .. and that is what my tired old eyes like.

On 8/15/2017 at 2:29 PM, bfoosh006 said:

Well.... I ordered up the "better" barrel today....

Criterion 18" Middie.... https://msrarms.com/collections/m-o-t-m/products/criterion-barrels-nitride-finish-stainless-steel-hybrid-contour-barrel-308-ar?variant=29092302337

As well as the Brownells version of the Geissele reaction rod and JP Upper vise blocks.

After shooting again on last Sat. ... I couldn't bear the thought of shooting so much expensive ( compared to 5.56 ) .308, and accepting the PSA barrels accuracy level ( really , Lack of accuracy ).

Criterion said the barrel should fit just fine, but did caution me about using the Nickel Boron Bolt... the reason being .. A. Quality, ... B. Since it is a coating, headspace could be excess as it possibly wears off / flakes off the locking lugs or bolt face.

Interesting... I had never thought of that.

Granted if the bolt was produced properly, it should be a-ok.

For me... that is another reason to use a conv. bolt or a nitrated bolt... or at least one that is not a coating.

On 8/15/2017 at 4:47 PM, bfoosh006 said:

Boot_Scraper.... Same here... the "budget" idea is long gone ... I was lying to myself anyway !!

Accuracy is addictive.... you know what they say, "Only an accurate rifle is interesting."

I knew I wouldn't be happy unless the rifle was "hopefully" as accurate as my SAI '96 M21... for a longer firing session.. soooooo.... I just hope no one puts a Krieger .308 barrel on sale during the "Labor Day" sales... or a Vortex scope.... or a.... ( PSA already had 168gr FGMM back on sale for $16 / 20rds, damn them ! )

Actually... the worse part was, realizing I have all the tools I need to build an AR15.... not an AR10 sized receiver...

On 8/16/2017 at 5:12 AM, bfoosh006 said:

Gadzooks... if only my wife was as reasonable as you guys !!

On 8/21/2017 at 9:30 AM, bfoosh006 said:

I received the SS Barreled Upper today from PSA...18" middie, FF, SS barrel, Nitrated BCG

http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-pa10-18-midlength-308-win-1-10-stainless-steel-15-m-lok-upper-with-bcg-and-ch-516445088.html

Weight of just the upper, from the PSA is 5 1/3lbs

I has the same gas tube binding issue the FF Barrel nut and the BCG... exactly the same. ( The barrel nut makes contact with the gas tube, forcing it in to the top

The gas key is properly staked... just like the first.

The charging handle lacks the raised "tab" at the front of it.. just like the first.

The upper is also bone dry...no extra oil at all... a very slight amount of something on the BCG.

Going to change the gas block to an SLR adjustable, grind down the barrel nut flat to allow free movement of the gas tube, oil it up, use a BCM Gunfighter "Brake" on this barrel and see how it shoots.

I am hoping for better accuracy then the nitrated barrel has done, and will be reporting more info as I get it.

Again, which ever upper shoots the worst, will receive the Criterion replacement barrel. ( I have high hopes for much better, consistent accuracy )

Photos of its OEM state will follow.

On 8/21/2017 at 12:43 PM, bfoosh006 said:

1187Shooter... you are very welcome !!

All of the input on .308ar.com has helped dramatically when it comes to me understanding the "AR10" platform !

And I am glad to help as much as possible.

On 8/21/2017 at 8:21 PM, bfoosh006 said:

This is the new 18" SS upper....

The first image is with the OEM gas block loosened and pulled back so everyone can see how much the barrel nut was pushing the gas tube up, it would not freely enter the gas tube hole at all... as a matter of fact it took a fair bit of gentle pushing to allow it to go in.

The second image is with it entered into the hole in the receiver... note how much it is flexed at the front of the gas block.

Third photo shows the wear from the OEM install and me taking it on and off.

Furth photo show the clearance now after grinding off material along the entire top... free movement and clearance.

I will add... the gas tube was binding the BCG ( via the gas tube interaction ) the same way my first upper was.

Again That binding will not help accuracy and function ( let alone longevity of parts ) at all.

So if yours is like the first photo... fix it for your own good... I'd bet you'll be happy you did.

On 8/21/2017 at 9:12 PM, bfoosh006 said:

IMHO... while I could have bent the gas tube.. it may have worked or not... the amount of heat going through the gas tube is a lot, so I wanted the gas tube to be unaffected by any external forces, either from me or the barrel nut.

On 8/22/2017 at 7:16 AM, bfoosh006 said:

Just to be clear.. yes, I was referring to the heat in the gas tube.. I don't like the idea of trial and error on bending the gas tube. ...( YMMV )

For the sake of accuracy, the BCG should freely return to battery, the same way every time.

And the PSA FF barrel nut has no splines to line up ( like a "normal barrel nut ) with the gas tube.

pg 5

98Z5V · July 30, 2018

On 8/24/2017 at 8:02 AM, bfoosh006 said:

Geez... ya make it sound like we are telling you to do this ! Lol..sooo YMMV !

And, because times have changed ( and no offense to anyone ) ..... I will give a "beware of what some guy on the internet says to do" warning... and anyone doing what I have done is proceeding at their own risk !!, ....as I have no way of knowing anyone's level of proficiency with home "gunsmithing" and "do it yourself tasks". IF YOU ARE NOT COMFORTABLE doing what I have chosen to do, then DON'T DO IT !

Me and/or anyone, including the webpage, at www.308ar.com is responsible for someone else's own decision's and actions.

I am not saying this to be mean spirited, but more as a warning. Make your own decisions, and be responsible for your own choices.

I am saying that is the route I took. I am not sure I could have bent the gas tube enough or correctly.. at least to my liking.

Also, honestly.. had I not ground the barrel nut, I still feel like the edge closest to the receiver would have been pushing on the gas tube.

AGAIN no offense to anyone !! I have been quite specific through this thread as to what worked for me... I don't want to feel like I should stop posting based on someone not understanding what I am doing with my property.

On 8/24/2017 at 8:05 AM, bfoosh006 said:

Mods... at this point I am considering stopping this thread.

At the very least, a huge warning posted at the 1st thread should be added to it, feel free to add ANY WARNING to any of my posts as desired by the staff.

On 8/25/2017 at 8:37 PM, bfoosh006 said:

Thanks guys.. I feel better now... Sketch, you made me realize not everyone would understand what I meant.

Thank You.

Updates...

The D&H 20rd and 10rd mags feel much stronger the Brownells...they latch in better then the Brownells, needing only a normal slap, but do not drop free currently. I can feel a little feed lip spread when fully loaded, but not enough to hinder seating.

They are not better fitting / sliding then the Magpuls or Lancers...

So if you want some smooth sided fits all USGI M14 type mags... I'd use them.

Hand cycled feeding was perfect....I think after the magwell wears in they will drop free better.

The Brownells version of the Geissele reaction rod is "Ok"... I didn't bother to look at the overall length and you need to use a 1/2 drive ratchet to secure it... there is in no way, enough of the rod sticking out the ass end of the receiver to DIY grind vise flats and still engage the barrel extension locking lugs.

And I was expecting a snugger fit into said locking lugs... the rest of the rod fits in the BCG channel perfectly

The JP Universal Vise blocks are GTG... I would have preferred the blocks extend the entire length of the receiver, rather then one end or the other.

On 8/25/2017 at 8:46 PM, bfoosh006 said:

The Criterion Barrel...

I want to make a special notation about the quality of the packaging Criterion did...

Outstanding will sum it up.

Heavy Cardboard tube, bubble wrapped with plenty of spare on both the muzzle end and breach end, PlastiDip type caps on the breach end ( clear over the rim that makes contact with the receiver face ) and on the muzzle and that expandable plastic netting over all of it.

Details count !!! The care taken in packaging, makes me think they really do take pride in their workmanship.

Thank You Criterion Barrels.

I have to say... if I knew which upper was going to be the recipient of the Criterion Barrel... I would probably stay up waaaay to late getting it installed.

On 9/2/2017 at 10:26 PM, bfoosh006 said:

Range day 18" SS Upper....

First off... The PSA SS upper run 100%.... no issues at all

The D&H 20 and 10rd mags function perfectly... and by the end of the day, they both were dropping free.

I have some IMI 20rders on order as well as a 20rd C Products.

Accuracy results.... all targets are fired at 100yds , solid benched, scoped ( PA 4-14x44 ), bagged front and squeeze bag on the back.... I prefer to shoot mildly rapidly, so, no barrel cooling between shots ( it is a MSR , Lol.. so I shoot it in the manner it was intended to be used )

This barrel demonstrates how different barrels can be.. the result were quite different between this stainless and the nitrated one.

Generally speaking... the SS barrel I have is more accurate, with a greater variety of the tested ammo.... Some of it was dramatically more accurate.

The first group of the day was a great start...

First photo

Some of the "sanitized" DAG / MEN ammo SGAmmo was selling ( groove cut around the head of the cartridges rim , removing most of the head stamp ) Great group IMHO, especially considering the ammos cost.

2nd Photo..... Hirtenberger '83

3rd Photo....168gr FGMM ....shot about the same as the Nitrated barrel.

4th Photo.... M118LR... I have hope for this ammo, after the barreled settled into it .. it started shooting those touching rds sub groups.

On 9/2/2017 at 10:39 PM, bfoosh006 said:

5th Photo... Portuguese FN Ball

6th Photo....Atomic 168gr

7th Photo... Malayisan from the .30cal cans... another one that deserves more scrutiny.. quite a few touching shoots.

8th Photo... Hirtenberger '76

On 9/2/2017 at 10:51 PM, bfoosh006 said:

9th Group Photo... 2016 MEN.. The nitrated barrel did better with this one.

10th Group Photo....Eagle Eye 175gr ... One of the best groups of the day.

11th Group Photo... ZQI Ball... still sucks, I gave up after a 5 shot group over 5" ish, based on the previous results. Why waste the barrels life.. Lol

12th Group Photo... TAP "AR" ...much better in the SS, then the nitrated barrel.

13th Group Photo... Federal 130gr OTM.. pretty good for such a unique bullet design.

On 9/2/2017 at 11:00 PM, bfoosh006 said:

14th Group Photo... CBC / Magtech 2015 Ball

15th Group Photo.... ELD TAP

16th Group Photo... ADI / Aust. Outback 168gr

17th Group Photo... BH 175gr TMK.... MUCH better group then the Nitrated barrel

18th Group Photo... PMC XTAC

On 9/2/2017 at 11:10 PM, bfoosh006 said:

Just because the first group was so good.. ( the sanitized German ammo and a brand new , clean barrel ) , I decided it would be prudent to fire another group with it just to be certain it wasn't a fluke... again mildly rapid fire, shoot, back on target within 1-2 seconds, fire..

20rds.

Sad part is.. that surplus has dried up.

On 9/2/2017 at 11:13 PM, bfoosh006 said:

Oops... Nosler 168gr BSB... dismal accuracy

On 9/2/2017 at 11:19 PM, bfoosh006 said:

Well.... so ultimately... the nitrated barrel will be coming off and be replaced with the Criterion Barrel.

I do think the PSA barrels performed at their price point..... but for me ( and YMMV ) I do want better accuracy.

I will try to change them as quickly as possible... I am anxious to see the accuracy improvement.

On 9/4/2017 at 5:21 AM, bfoosh006 said:

I am going to try some more of the BH 168gr Moly after the barrel change.

I still have other .308 to test, but the day goes so fast at the range ! Lol

I am hoping to amass some of all my .308 and chrono them as well....that will be a long day.

On 9/5/2017 at 8:06 AM, bfoosh006 said:

Well.... that was very uneventful !!!

The PSA barrel nut was a breeze to loosen up on the nitrated upper !!

WD-40'd it let it soak for about 5 min. and a reasonable pull was all it took. ( Heck I have turned bolts tighter then this one )

IMHO, it was snug enough... but not Gorilla'd on like I expected !

JP Vise blocks worked perfectly for this upper.

The barrel freely moved out of the upper.

So much for worrying about some thing needlessly !!

Next, I will true up the receiver face..... most likely "glue / lock tight" the Criterion barrel in place and torque it down.

On 9/5/2017 at 12:26 PM, bfoosh006 said:

Thank you... I had forgotten about those !!!

On 9/5/2017 at 7:24 PM, bfoosh006 said:

Checking the headspace w/ PSA Bolt and Criterion barrel.... bolt will close and lock on FGMM .308 , CBC 7.62x51, and Hirtenberger '76 7.62x51 ball....

Bolt will NOT close or lock on a Forster NO GO gage.

1st photo....trued the receiver face ..... ignore the haphazard grind marks from the "flattening of the barrel nut"

2nd photo... shows the different barrel profiles... PSA at the top, Criterion SS Nitrated .308 Hybrid Barrel on the bottom

( Criterion Model 1018S-HYM-N...18"... 1-10 RH twist ... 5/8 x 24 threaded muzzle.... .750 gas journal... Mid length Gas system.... Criterion 308 WIN M118 chamber )

3rd Photo... PSA on top.. Criterion on the bottom

4th Photo ... PSA on top ... Criterion on the bottom

On 9/5/2017 at 8:04 PM, bfoosh006 said:

Comparing the fit of the two barrels into the upper receiver.... the PSA barrel shows some slop in the barrel extension to upper receiver....

Using just my hands you can feel a definitive " light thunk" while holding the PSA barrel snuggly into the receiver and shifting the barrel side to side and up and down... interestingly, it is most pronounced up and down..... the Criterion barrel shows MUCH less movement.. in any direction.

I will try to mic both and see what the measurements are.

After hand fitting all the parts together, and slightly snugging the barrel nut on the Criterion barrel ( Not fully torqued ) ... I have hand fed numerous .308 rounds and 7.62x51 rounds... all have fed perfectly... from the Magpul, Lancer ( still the strongest mag spring of all the mags ) , the D&H and even the Brownells.

I will use the Loctite 609 Retaining Compound ( from the Criterion video #3 ...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHxU8VUAHOY&index=3&list=PLqwwk7tC6Sdanx0b55g2EL8UV5udC2Gwh ) .... when I install the barrel, following their guidelines.

On 9/6/2017 at 5:39 AM, bfoosh006 said:

BTW.. I have read on numerous different threads around the internet ... that PSA doesn't lube their barrel nuts... this one was 100% lubed.

pg 6

98Z5V · July 30, 2018

On 9/6/2017 at 4:59 PM, bfoosh006 said:

My main reason for the adjustable gas block was the cyclic action of the PSA... it was needlessly over zealous.

I do think the PA10 GenII has a "industry standard" gas port size... but also believe it is slightly bigger ( more gassed ) then needed or wanted... ( at least by me )

USGI weapons are usually overgassed so they will work in the most awful conditions possible.... full of muck, no lube or cleaning for ages.. etc... so they really want the firearm to cyclic "no matter what".

My .308 AR will most likely never see severe conditions like that ( I could always increase the gas anyhow.. ).

So by using the adjustable gas block, I can limit the available gas volume, and have a fully functioning , softer shooting, easier on the brass and rifle parts, stay on target quicker, more pleasurable .308 AR to shoot.

The difference between the OEM non-adjustable and the SLR adjustable gas block configured rifle was "night and day"...

The brass cases were not showing signs of violent, still under high pressure extraction after tuning the SLR... ( 5-6 clicks of 12 available )

IMHO, the mere fact that the PA10 GenII will function 100% with , lets just say for the sake of argument, half of the gas of the OEM configuration tells me I did the right thing....remember I am even running a Tubbs .308 Flatwire and a 9.3oz HEAVY rifle buffer with that setting....

Out of all the changes I have done to the firearm... the adjustable gas block was by far the best improvement.

To quote someone on another forum... It changed the firing of the rifle from "Linda Blair" in the Exorcist movie to a calm, controllable Winnie the Pooh.

I whole heartedly recommend the SLR Adjustable gas block... so much so that I bought 2 more shortly after see how much improvement it does.

Much better then just adding weight to the buffer, and or more powerful recoil springs... frankly, if I did it over again... I would skip the KAK 9.3oz buffer completely... and use the adjustable gas block to control the OEM over zealous recoil.

On a side note....a lot of people say the recoil isn't bad.... I am 250lbs 6' and can certainly handle the OEM recoil... but have never understood why I should have to ? IE... if I could make your .308 AR recoil like a much smaller caliber, why wouldn't someone want that ?...

The benefits of the SLR ( a quality adjustable gas block ) far out weigh the added cost.... you will enjoy every aspect of a adjustable gas block.

If anyone orders one from SLR... be sure to consider the 2mm Bondhus wrench they sell and the barrel dimpling jig ( used mine on 4 barrels now ) it took all the guess work out of the install.

I hope that answered your question ... if not , feel free to ask more.

On 9/6/2017 at 5:09 PM, bfoosh006 said:

Thank You ! .....I will be checking headspace again after torqueing the barrel ... I was just gettin' antsy !!

And as for compatibility ... I e-mailed Criterion weeks ago and they said it should be GTG... I gave them the specific model and make of the rifle.

On 9/6/2017 at 5:12 PM, bfoosh006 said:

I am in complete agreement about longer length gas systems.... tapping the gas, further down the barrel will always result in a "softer" shooting AR.

If the rifle length version of the PSA had been in stock when I ordered it... I most certainly would have bought that one.

On 9/6/2017 at 9:21 PM, bfoosh006 said:

hillpitcher2006 ..... this link has some good input as well...

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/05/what-makes-an-ar-accurate-whitley-offers-answers/

"9. Gas Port Tuning: You want to avoid over-porting the gas port. Being over-gassed makes the gas system pressure up earlier and more aggressively. This causes more impulse, and increases forces and vibration affecting the top end and the barrel. Tune the gas port to give the amount of pressure needed to function properly and adequately but no more."

On 9/7/2017 at 9:28 AM, bfoosh006 said:

I am no longer a "fan" of NiB bolts... I had never considered the coating aspect.

I have numerous other BCG's in NiB, and haven't had any issues, but IMHO.... it does seem like just a bad idea using a coating in such an important area.

On 9/7/2017 at 9:32 PM, bfoosh006 said:

I installed the Criterion barrel today as per Criterions video, used the Loctite 609, lubed the barrel nut with anti seize, torqued it to 50 ft/lbs , Blue Loctited the gas block screws and torqued to SLR spec.

I then checked the headspace, with the ejector and extractor removed from the bolt.... closed on a "Go" gage and would not close on a "No Go" gage... even with a little nudge / pressure on the BCG assist......( BTW... the SS PSA upper with the OEM barrel was the same )

With the hammer removed , I hand cycled various .308 and 7.62x51 ( 10 different, 5 of each cal.) brands through it , each brand from a fully loaded 20rd mag, all fed and extracted fine... except the 2016 MEN.. 2 of those 20rds were snug extracting... and the bolt went fully into battery.

Are those two rds something to be concerned about ?.... I think I will open another couple of 20rd boxes, hand cycle them and see if it happens again.

As per Criterions webpage..." These barrels feature an M4 barrel extension and M118 LR match chamber compatible with both 7.62x51 NATO and .308 Win ammunition. "

Here is the explanation on the "M118LR Match Chamber".... https://sierrabulletsblog.com/2017/06/13/the-m118-lr-chamber-the-223-wylde-of-the-308-ar-world/ ...it is similar to a .223 Wylde chamber design.... I feel comfortable with the M118 LR match chamber.

I will measure the neck diameter on the MEN ammo and compare it to the other rounds...

I would like to test fire it this weekend.

On 9/8/2017 at 6:08 AM, bfoosh006 said:

Thank you.

With no mil-spec I was kind of concerned...( parts fitting wise ) but you are right.

On 9/8/2017 at 7:21 AM, bfoosh006 said:

Before I forget...

I need to thank everyone here for all their help !!

Thanks Guys !!

On 9/8/2017 at 7:49 PM, bfoosh006 said:

So I received the IMI 20rd mag and the C-Products 20rd mag....

The IMI is GTG, 100% function, drops free loaded and unloaded, holds all 20rds, has just the right spring pressure.... and is OD Green.. ?

The C Products is... rough cycling almost like it was binding with the BCG holds only 19rds if you want it to seat in the PSA PA10, doesn't drop free at all, the follower looks like something I whittled out of plastic, is NOT anti tilt .. and frankly looks like it uses a M14 mag spring, seriously....I can't say I will buy more C-Products mags.

On 9/10/2017 at 5:46 AM, bfoosh006 said:

Just so you know....I know that if I can do it... you can do it. It truly was that easy, especially if you are mechanically minded.

Even changing the barrel was ( with the right tools ) far easier then I thought it would be. ( Thank God.. )

As for the Adj. gas block... buy a good one and get the dimpling jig, drill gently, and re-watch the SLR install video... numerous times... Lol ( the whole measure twice, cut once thing )

I am glad you are enjoying your bargain rifle.

On 9/10/2017 at 5:48 AM, bfoosh006 said:

I would be very interested in seeing photo's of your C-Products... I forgot to mention, mine appeared to be painted ?!..... a fairly rough surface coating. Nothing like any of the other mags.

On 9/10/2017 at 6:13 AM, bfoosh006 said:

As for the testing of the new Criterion barrel, a much more detailed "report" is coming.... but, to cut to the chase, it shot most everything better and I couldn't be happier. No problems at all with the Criterion barrel.

I was at the range from 08:00 - 15:30... fired 100's of rounds, and still got nice, predictable small 10rd groups from its favorite ammo at the end of the day.... with no cleaning at the range at all... the rifle ran 100%.

I fired all the different types of .308 / 7.62x51 I had with me.... I am guessing around 30-40 different rounds. 20rd or 10 round groups.

The Lancers with their stiff springs ( probably not helped by the gas block settings ) caused sluggish feeding.... but all the other mags ran like champs... especially the P-Mags, D&H, and the IMI.

One other brief highlight was the ZQI ammo no longer shots like a 25yd duckbilled buckshot pattern.... it is not a small group... but it is better.

Also, while I am confident the new Criterion barrel helped with the group flyer issues... I can't help but wonder if trueing the receiver face and using the Loctite 609 helped with flyers.... I could see if I messed up the shot.

I started realizing that the "flyers" were a result of me, more often than not, because of my poor bench skills....IE, not maintaining proper rifle holding skills.

I guess what I am saying is.... true up your receiver faces and use the Loctite 609... I will even pull apart the 18" SS upper and do the same thing to it.

I seriously mean it when I say thanks for all the help from this forum and from all you guys... you all helped instill confidence and offered help with a helpful demeanor, something that lacks at other forums sometimes... no one here ever looked down on the lowly PSA PA10 GenII.

After some morning coffee and such, I will start photographing and reporting.

On 9/10/2017 at 8:08 AM, bfoosh006 said:

Appears to be the same follower... mine came in a much heavier plastic bag , and I can see from your photos mine is a lot rougher surfaced.

Here are some photos, along side a M14/ M1A spring as well... and next to the IMI spring.

Please pardon the Dri-Film lube ( whiteish powder ) on the various mag parts.

On 9/10/2017 at 8:17 AM, bfoosh006 said:

IMI 20rd AR10 mag photos...nice thick "rubber" base, smooth positive spring action....easy to take apart, seats easily holds all 20rds, fed and functioned 100%

Might be 2nd or 3rd favorite mag... 1st P-Mag, then D&H or IMI... D&H is 100% GTG and is slick sided, to in and out of mag pouches is very easy.

Ignore the whit powdery look... that is just a Dri-film lube.

And the sprng to the left is from the C-Products mag.

On 9/10/2017 at 8:54 AM, bfoosh006 said:

New Criterion Barrel shooting results...

First off, the barrel was 100% GTG in all aspects... no issues with its performance, or its install, as a matter of fact I couldn't be happier with it. The online Criterion Barrel install video is excellent and I installed it just like it shows. ( Video # 3 )

I allowed the Loctite 609 about 35+ hrs to dry... prior to shooting.

http://criterionbarrels.com/media/videos/accurizing-the-ar-15-video-series

Kudos to Criterion barrels for a those videos.

I do think the trueing of the receiver face and the Loctite 609 are important, and easy to do, if you have the barrel off.

I suspect Criterions knows what they are doing , ? Lol ... and the benefits are less flyers and more consistent group sizes.

I could tell when I was screwing up a group.... and really couldn't fault the PA10 GII for those flyers.

Here are the first groups of the day.. ( I did fire 6 rounds to get on target )

1st photo, FGMM 168gr, 6rds

2nd photo, FGMM 168gr, 5rds or 6 ?.. I don't remember, I was to excited to try , more ammo.

3rd photo, 20rds BH 168gr Moly coated

4th photo, 20rds Fed. M118LR, happy about this one because I got a great deal on these from PSA ( $300 / 500rds. ..way back when )

5th photo, 20rds rapid fire 168gr FGMM... most of them went into that ragged hole !!

6th photo, 10rds Atomic 168gr Nosler

7th photo, 10rds Maylaisan ball

8th photo 20rds 2016 MEN ball

pg 7

98Z5V · July 30, 2018

On 9/10/2017 at 9:08 AM, bfoosh006 said:

2nd Target results....

1st photo, that gawd awful ZQI...19rds shown, 20 fired... the first was so off my zero.. I had to find it. Much better performance then before... but still kind .. well, sucks.

2nd photo, 8rds more 168gr FGMM , I was curious if my grouping had shifted after the first ZQI shot... so this was of the fly.

3rd photo, 20rds Fed. AE 168gr M1A

4th photo, 10rds Winc. 147gr White Box ball

5th photo, 16rds '83 Hirt. ball, boxer primed

On 9/10/2017 at 9:38 AM, bfoosh006 said:

3rd Target...

1st photo, 10rds South African Ball , the stuff from those tubs.

2nd photo, 19 of 20 shown, Current CBC / Magtech Ball.. kind of all over the place photo missing the one off target on top

3rd photo, 9rds PMC XTAC 168gr Match

4th photo, 15rds ? , Hornady Steel Match 155gr OTM... I have gotten great results with this and the .75gr .223 load.. so steel cased ammo can shot.

5th photo, 20rds '76 Hirt. Berdan Primed.

6th photo, 10rds, Aust. Outback 165gr SGK, soft point.

7th photo , 20rds, Sanitized DAG

8th photo, Eagle Eye 175gr.... only 5 shoots... the barrel and this did not play nicely together... almost pierced primers and obvious signs of pressure. More photos later.

On 9/10/2017 at 9:38 AM, bfoosh006 said:

Thanks !

On 9/10/2017 at 10:24 AM, bfoosh006 said:

4th Target...

1st photo, 20rds Port surplus Ball, also from way back when.

2nd photo, 14rds Hornady brass cased 155gr Match

3rd photo, 10rds Horn. TAP ELD 168gr "AR"

4th photo, 10rds SSA 165gr Accubond.. this shot MUCH better ( through the Criterion ) then both the OEM barrels results .

5th photo, another spot check with 168gr FGMM

6th photo, 10rds Fed. MSR Fusion... IMHO excellent performance from and great bonded bullet.

7th photo, Fed. 130gr OTM.. labeled T762TNB1

8th photo, SSA 150gr Accubond ... much better ! ... mislabeled as DAG

On 9/10/2017 at 11:18 AM, bfoosh006 said:

5th Target... long day of shooting and I could tell I was getting tired.

Also a special note about the last group pictured... 7rds of 168Gr FGMM... this group was from a filthy barrel... and the Criterion barrel could still shoot as good as when it was clean.

1st photo, 10rds Black Hills 175gr TMK

2nd photo, 10rds Speer / CCI 150gr Gold Dot

3rd photo, some more cheap Malaysian berdan primed

4th photo, Speer / CCI 168gr Gold Dot

5th Photo, Sanitized DAG again.... still holding its accuracy , even from the dirty barrel.

6th photo, another FGMM group, rapid fire.

7th photo, Horn. TAP ELD 168gr Precision

8th photo, This, to me is outstanding performance from the Criterion barrel.... final group of the day... after a full 30cal can, and 1 quart ziplock bag worth of spent ammo cases.... The Criterion barrel still shot like it was sparkling clean. 7rds 168gr FGMM..( I stopped with 7 because I thought I'd fubar such a good group ! Lol )

On 9/10/2017 at 2:11 PM, bfoosh006 said:

The Eagle Eye 175gr SMK ammo issues....

Sadly, this ammo and barrel combo didn't like each other.

Clear signs of over-pressure... and pierced primers, ( I can blow air through each case ) the little primer indentation disc wasn't allowed to "pop out". ( You can't see it clearly in the photos )
I will attribute the fact that I didn't have popped primers and those little disc's to a very heavy buffer ( 9.3oz), the added spring weight with the BCG closed from the Tubbs spring and an adjustable gas block... those 3 parts "retarded" the typically violent/ rapid cyclic action of the OEM configuration by just enough milliseconds to allow BCG movement and extraction at a more moderate chamber pressure.

On 9/11/2017 at 11:14 AM, bfoosh006 said:

1. I think either the cotter key was soft, or the OEM violent cyclic action was messing with it... the new cotter key with the adjustable gas block is fine.

2. I have wonder about this myself... it of course makes sense... but as long as you do not torque the heck out the screws, ( another good reason why you should dimple the barrel, spreading out the force from the tipped screws... ) I would think you are fine. I have seen way to many USGI barrels with their tapered FSB pin hammered in tighter then Heck ( also applying force to the barrel ) .. fire spectacular groups.

Maybe on the 6.5 Creedmoor barrel ( I am strongly considering ) I might use a clamp-on.

3. Always check headspace !!!
I would, at the VERY least, have a gunsmith check it... having to wait a few days for him to do it is far better then the huge volume of propellant gas blowing up in your face.

Also, since various brand parts don't have to follow a guideline.... you could easily have a headspace issue.

On another forum.... I just saw some Tula that had cracked just above the rim, from a bolt action, it had cracked enough that had the rifle been a MSR... it probably would have been a full on KaBoom... the crack was 1/2 the way around the case head... if a MSR .308 had excess headspace, it most certainly would have been a kaboom.

I realize we all want to go shoot it now... but, step back and seriously consider the possible consequences.... you wouldn't drive across the state with a questionable brake job on your car... so don't do it with something 8" from your face, eyes and such.

Cycling issues can be from all sorts of things... not just a headspace issue.

4. Generally speaking... the Fed. 168gr Gold Medal Match fired quite well from all the barrels.... so do consider the FGMM.

As for a less expensive round... the Sanitized DAG did very well from my barrels. YMMV.

I suggest you buy some of all the cheaper surplus and see which round your barrel likes.... that way you will know for sure it is GTG.

( Barrels are like every person you have ever dated... while similar, they are all slightly different .

On 9/11/2017 at 11:53 AM, bfoosh006 said:

Next weekend.... I will try and sit down and shoot ... slower, more methodical 5rd groups with the various ammos that show promise.

With a clean barrel ....

On 9/11/2017 at 5:51 PM, bfoosh006 said:

See !!! Good thing you didn't knock her up !

On 9/13/2017 at 10:24 AM, bfoosh006 said:

Just for sh-ts and giggles... here is the pile of .308 cases used in the testing.... a nice big pile, filled more then 3 / .30 cal cans.

On 9/14/2017 at 6:07 AM, bfoosh006 said:

You said it... Lol

Its a labor of love. sorting, trimming, sizing.... oh my.

On 10/5/2017 at 7:25 AM, bfoosh006 said:

Finally got back to the range... so here are some more groups, while focusing on accuracy.

Fiocchi 180gr SMK

Armscorp, 168gr "Match"

Armscorp 168gr HPBT , I don't know if there was a difference between the two.. apart from labeling.

SSA 175gr

Browning 168gr BXC

On 10/5/2017 at 7:30 AM, bfoosh006 said:

Browning 155gr BRX

Federal Tipped Trophy Bonded.... Dramatic POI v. POA shift.

Perfecta FMJ

Fed. 168gr GMM

PPU Green Box

Rem. / UMC 150gr MC

On 10/5/2017 at 7:35 AM, bfoosh006 said:

Fed 168gr GMM

CBC /Magtech 168gr "Sniper"

CBC /Magtech 168gr "Sniper", again

CBC /Magtech 168gr "Sniper", again.. 10rds

Fed 168gr GMM, again...

IMI 150gr FMJ ..... lots of muzzle flash ! , easily seen through the scope.

pg 8

98Z5V · July 30, 2018

On 10/5/2017 at 7:38 AM, bfoosh006 said:

Fed. 150gr Fusion ( NOT MSR )

Fed. 180gr SP "Blue Box"

Fed. 150gr SP "Blue Box"

Fed. 168gr GMM

Fed. M118LR

On 10/5/2017 at 7:42 AM, bfoosh006 said:

Some other ammo issues...

Nosler 110 Varmageddon... blew the first two shoots primers... ( I only found one of the cases ) those two blown primers ended up in the receiver extension, not allowing the BCG to return to battery.

You can see, on the primer, the marks from the BCG smacking it.

On 10/5/2017 at 7:44 AM, bfoosh006 said:

I also tried Hornady 125gr SST "lite" ... every second round would fail to lock back my BCG, remember I have an adjustable gas block... I am comfortable in a OEM rifle it would function fine.

I will add... recoil is considerably lessened.

On 10/20/2017 at 7:44 AM, bfoosh006 said:

FYI... I ordered up a PSA 6.5CM upper.

High pressure, small firing pin bolt included.

On 10/20/2017 at 1:39 PM, bfoosh006 said:

Completely agreed... this was shot just for SnG's and for the little woman... she will be very proud that she can shot a .308

On 10/20/2017 at 2:00 PM, bfoosh006 said:

No offense to any one and not looking to start a "Twist rate" discussion...

But I have seen faster twist rates consistently shoot very good groups with " not the right weight ammo" ... in .223 , 5.56 and now .308.
Bare in mind my groups are currently all 100yds... so the results may be different at 300yds, and 5-600yds.

Also ... if you review my 3 different barrels... you can see barrels are like everyone you have ever dated... close but never the same.... so YMMV.

What critter are you hunting ?... and what range ?

150gr Fusion, and Fusion MSR, and 150gr GD bonded bullets did very well for my barrel.

My weekend ammo purchase is going to be some Creedmoor Sports .308 and 6.5CM.... I have had VERY good accuracy with their .223 match ammo.

Good enough results that I will recommend trying some of this... ( BTW, I will be ordering this and testing it )

https://www.creedmoorsports.com/product/1772/-Rifle-Ammunition

Or some Aust. Outback 165gr SGK

http://www.cabelas.com/product/ADI-RIFLE-AMMO/2437832.uts

On 11/1/2017 at 7:40 AM, bfoosh006 said:

Jsnake711... have you done any modifications to the PSA ?

Or tell us what the current setup is... completely factory ? .. different buffer or buffer spring ?..etc..

On 11/1/2017 at 8:14 PM, bfoosh006 said:

Jsnake711...

Your barrel is fine.... the only way you could seriously hurt your barrel is if you did a dozen 20rd mag dumps in a row.

Try shooting off a bag as well... some people do better with a bag and vice versa...

As for accuracy... and no offense intended at all... but is this your first .308 AR ?

If it is... IMHO , the PSA in its stock form is pretty over gassed... so if you are learning with a abrupt cycling rifle, it will be hard to focus on your shooting skills.
And your learning curve / accuracy/ skills might be affected by the jolt of the stock gas system.
In order to be consistent at the bench, you need to be able to focus on your skills ... not the rifle bucking you from every shot.

IMHO, I would install an adjustable gas block to help tame the cyclic speed. It is quite easy to do.

And.. your barrel might be a shooter or it might not be one...
You are going to need to try a variety of ammo , to see what your barrel likes.

FIRST....
Sooo... Check the basics first.... Barrel nut tight ( yes I have gotten a PSA 5.56 upper that had a hand tight barrel nut )....gas block tight...gas tube is free floating in the upper hole, no binding.... flash suppressor tight ( ditto on one of those hand tight from PSA ) .....,etc.
If you don't have the tools needed... either buy them ( depending on your budget ) or take it to a gunsmith, tell him your reason for being there ( you doing the QC ) and ask him if for a "smallish" fee, if he could check it out for you and fix it.

If everything is tight and GTG....

I'd buy the adjustable gas block first.... certainly prior to trying a bunch of different ammo.

A softer cycling .308 AR rifle will make your time spent at the bench FAR more productive... and you will stay on target easier.

As for trying different ammo.... buy the Milspec surplus first... I am still surprised how well the cruddy DAG shot.... I have seen numerous examples over the years ( and over the calibers ) of inexpensive ammo shooting better then ammo costing 3-5 times as much.

Keep us posted on your progress... and don't fret about asking any question.... we are all more then happy to offer up our opinions !! Lol

On 11/3/2017 at 7:42 AM, bfoosh006 said:

Update on the 6.5CM PSA upper....

I got the 6.5CM Upper... but it came with the wrong bolt and firing pin... and no retaining key for the FF rail.

I got a .308 Bolt and firing pin... same dimensions as my .308 upper's bolt and firing pin.

Good news is, Fred at PSA is sending me the proper "High pressure/ small diameter firing pin bolt" and retaining key.

Very nice to see PSA be so prompt with the correction.... Thank You very much Fred !

So .... at this point... I want to know everyone's opinions on firing the 6.5CM with the .308 ( larger firing pin and hole ) bolt.

Am I asking for problems ? I'd like to think it would be ok.

Or should I wait for the "correct" bolt and firing pin...

I will post other photos later.... gotta say, I like the barrel profile...good n' heavy.

Gas tube makes just a tiny bit of contact with the barrel nut... not enough to be concerned.

On 11/3/2017 at 1:22 PM, bfoosh006 said:

PSA sells the 6.5CM upper with a small FP and hole ... it is on the webpage and was confirmed by PSA on another forum.
The PSA webpage says.... on the very bottom of the description ...

Includes: High pressure/ small diameter firing pin bolt

I will post photos of the differences later, the firing pin is different shaped, towards the tip..... as well as other info.

That said... I believe I will try the .308 bolt.

pg 9

98Z5V · July 30, 2018

On 11/5/2017 at 10:02 AM, bfoosh006 said:

My PA10 GenII works with ( in order of most consistent function as well as drop free ) Magpul 25rd, 20rd, and 10rd mags... and D&H 20rd and 10rd ( a tie between those 2 ) ,

Lancer 20rd and 10rd.. the .308 bolt kinda drags at times in the .308 uppers, but not as "bad" in the 6.5CM PSA upper ?!

The IMI 20rd works well.

The C-Products and Brownells ... while feed ok... are less reliable. And the Brownells spread the feed lips so bad, that when loaded with 20rds... insertion is frustrating ( as in slap the hell out of the base ) and drop free is never going to happen.

On 11/10/2017 at 9:02 AM, bfoosh006 said:

I should be able to get to the range this weekend to try the OEM 6.5CM upper and the .308 Criterion at 200-300 yds.

Sorry about the delays... fecking tons ( literally ) of leaves are now at the recycle depot....

On 11/12/2017 at 12:46 PM, bfoosh006 said:

A few other ammos tried...

Federal 130gr Varmint HP ... big HP, I was worried it might not feed well, but no issues

Creedmoor Sports 165gr SGK

On 11/12/2017 at 1:02 PM, bfoosh006 said:

PRIME 175gr BTHP... BTW the biggest .308 box of ammo ever... and 2 groups, different POA

And the rifle as it will remain configured.

On 12/9/2017 at 10:16 PM, bfoosh006 said:

Atlanta Arms 175gr TMK

Atlanta Arms 168gr BTHP

Atlanta Arms 168gr AMAX

Creedmoor Sports 150gr SMK

On 12/12/2017 at 8:39 AM, bfoosh006 said:

Truing / Lapping the receiver face.

I want to show how little material is removed.

This first photo is from the internet... It was trued with a lathe, and he used a dye to monitor the progress... you can image how little thickness a dye would add.

You can image how going deeper with the cut , by just a few thousands will alter the receiver face. Allowing it to be truer.

On 12/12/2017 at 8:47 AM, bfoosh006 said:

When you have completed the Lapping / Trueing it will look like this... ther is nothing to be gained by going deeper with the lapping. ( My completed receiver face, is the first photo )

The next photo is mine as well.. it is hard to see, but you can just make out the beginning of it at about the 8 o'clock position. With no lapping at the opposite side.

On 1/6/2018 at 9:54 PM, bfoosh006 said:

Soooo.... I bought another complete PA10 lower.... is has a longer carbine buffer tube, a regular AR15 length buffer, and a longer buffer spring then my first PA10 lower. I haven't measured them yet... but is sure looks like a Armalite .308 length buffer system.

So... prior to any purchasing of buffer parts, I strongly suggest you post photos of what actually came with your rifle.

The "new" longer length buffer tube is marked "PA10" with the PSA "Logo" as well ... the buffer is AR15 length ( no markings ) as hand compared to a spare AR15 carbine buffer I have laying around.

Here are some side by side photos for comparison...the "New" sized buffer system is on the left.

The older "DPMS" style buffer systems is on the right.

I am now wondering how many times the different ones have been used... and how many times it may have caused mayhem and confusion.... even through this thread.

On 1/7/2018 at 12:31 AM, bfoosh006 said:

Thank you updated response as well.

On 4/1/2018 at 5:56 PM, bfoosh006 said:

You are welcome from all of us !!

On 4/15/2018 at 12:21 AM, bfoosh006 said:

FYI, I will be adding the results from a PSA 20" Hvy profile barrel complete rifle , Rifle length gas system soon ... and including any improvements added by PSA.

On 7/5/2018 at 8:17 AM, bfoosh006 said:

Which one ? The PSA 20" HBAR from here... https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-20-rifle-length-308-win-1-10-stainless-steel-barrel-516446237.html

The 18" Nitrated SS Hybrid Criterion from MSR Arms... via here... at the bottom of the link..http://criterionbarrels.com/barrels/.308_AR/ar-10-hybrid
I kind of wish I had bought a 20" or 22" Nitrated SS Hybrid... just for the added velocity, but the 18" is a very nimble package.

pg 10

98Z5V · July 30, 2018

On 7/9/2018 at 8:46 PM, bfoosh006 said:

I have been so busy with all the other projects, chronographing is on the list.... but I want to do a few barrel makes and lengths, specific to the caliber... IE 6.5CM Criterion 22", PSA 20", and now a DSG Arms ( Ballistic Advantage ? ) 22".... and a .308 18" PSA , 18" Criterion, 20" PSA.... and in .308, there are nitrated, SS , and Nitrated SS barrels.

I have decently large assortment of both calibers... waiting .. for time to test.

Testing that many rds, from so many barrels is a whole weekend event... logging data after every factory rd and having to stop every 20 minutes ( range rules at the 100yd line, so as to allow new shooters time to setup targets.. ) can be a chore.

I might just break it down into sub sections.

pg 11

98Z5V · July 30, 2018

Good luck getting those, that I quoted. :thumbup:

Jsnake711 · August 13, 2018

On 7/9/2018 at 11:52 PM, mley1 said:

Jssnake711, My 18" SS PA10 is getting a five shot average of 2562fps with 44.7grns of Varget under a 168grn Barnes TTSX in Federal cases, and using Winchester large rifle primers.

Thanks so much.