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New Aero/WC 308 build having issues


Joky375
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Hi all!
First off, let me start by admitting that I’m an absolute “newbie” to the AR10 platform. I own a S&W AR15 (M&P15 SportII) and have enjoyed tinkering with some small modifications. After seeing some new legislation passing in my state (Oregon), I decided that it might be a good idea to start building myself an AR10 308 while it’s still possible. So when it became evident that Ballot measure 114 was passing, I immediately purchased an Aero Precision lower at a local gun store and began this, sometimes frustrating, yet entirely satisfying project. 

When complete, I went to the local range with some friends (who had the same idea). I tested the 308 with several types of ammunition. The first, 762x51 149gr, wouldn’t cycle. The rounds feed and shot, but wouldn’t eject.  I had the same results with 308 180gr, but the Hornady 308 165gr seemed to work fine. I also noticed that the 7.62x51 brass was distorted (see attached pic). I don’t know if this is common, or something seen during the break-in period, but I wanted to see if anyone in the community had any advice for me (I apologize if this has been addressed in previous posts on the forum, I haven’t had the time to read thru much.)

Here’s the build:

Aero Precision M5 lower & upper, AP M5 MOE LPK w/FCG, AP .308 Rifle Buffer Kit (5.6oz buffer), Wilson Combat 18” Super Sniper fluted stainless barrel (1/10), WC AR308 Nickel Boron BCG, WC 16.25” Handguard, WC AR10 rifle length gas tube (15.5”), WC lo-profile non-adjustable gas block (.875), A2 Birdcage flash hider, Magpul MOE rifle stock.

After seeing others having issues with short gas tubes in the past, I checked mine and the gas tube extends a bit more than halfway thru the cam cutout in the upper receiver.

Thanks in advance for any insights you may have.

 

 

096EC17B-9EC5-4ACF-AE84-6A7CC7E2C707.jpeg

D3C5ECC6-4C61-4EC3-B1D1-EDED62CB3DC3.jpeg

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I haven't read this long thread of yours yet.  This is your first post here, so very first, go rip you up some Intro Section, and tell us about yourself.  Here's the Intro Section - I'll link it so it's easy.

https://forum.308ar.com/forum/22-introductions/

Just go tear that shiit up, and tell us about yourself.  That's step #1.

Second, you need to read the Waterboarding thread, and comply with it's requests.  I'm not even reading about this gun of yours until I have all the full details on it - ALL the details.

Here's the Waterboarding Thread, linked for your convenience:

 

 

Blow those 2 out, read them, soak it all in, understand it - and get back in here and tell us what your gun is doing.  I'm not doing anymore of this waterboarding, after that last guy. 

Comply.  We'll fix your gun.  Don't comply, make it difficult - pansy around with details here and there - I'm not reading, not helping.  Give exactly 2 shiits about your problem.

Sounds harsh, I get it.  I'm here to gladly hand out free information and fix your gun.  I'm not giving it out freely, without the details of your gun.  All the details.

You didn't fuk you, here - the last guy did.  Done with the bullshiit, and you're the first dude after that asshat that happened to show up, and have issues.  Comply with the requests, and the help will freely flow.  Or...  Do whatever...   :popcorn:

If you want your gun fixed, compliance with the requests is an easy thing to accomplish.  Just do those 2 things.

Edited by 98Z5V
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Thanks for replying Shooterrex & 98Z5V!
Not only am I newbie to the forum… I’m a newbie to forums in general. Sorry. So please, feel free to let me know if not doing something right.

Shooterrex, I went back to the Wilson Combat site and couldn’t find the specs on the gas port size, and it looks like I’ll need to get some digital calipers to before I can tear it down and measure it myself. I’ll get back to you when I can provide good info.

98Z5V, I appreciate your straight shot on how things work here. I’ll hit up the Intro section and read thru “Waterboarding”tonight. Sounds like someone “pissed in the pool” and ruined the game for all the players, it’ll be interesting to see how it played out in the “Waterboarding” thread. After I’ve gone thru the reading, perhaps I’ll get a better idea about exactly what info the forum will need to better diagnose my issues. And as with with Shooterrex’s request, I may need some tools to get that info.

Thanks again, I respond back as soon as I’m able.

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5 minutes ago, Joky375 said:

 

Shooterrex, I went back to the Wilson Combat site and couldn’t find the specs on the gas port size, and it looks like I’ll need to get some digital calipers to before I can tear it down and measure it myself. I’ll get back to you when I can provide good info.

 

If you have a numbered drill bit set (not fractions of inches), you have all you need to measure the gas port.  Find the largest numbered bit that fits inside the gas port and the smallest that does not fit.  Report those sizes back here.

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6 hours ago, Joky375 said:

98Z5V, I appreciate your straight shot on how things work here. I’ll hit up the Intro section and read thru “Waterboarding”tonight. Sounds like someone “pissed in the pool” and ruined the game for all the players, it’ll be interesting to see how it played out in the “Waterboarding” thread. After I’ve gone thru the reading, perhaps I’ll get a better idea about exactly what info the forum will need to better diagnose my issues.

It's not just the last guy - or the guy before that, or the guy before that - it just gets tiring.  Grinds you to dust, trying to extract information from someone, just to try to help them with their gun issue - and they don't help.  I'd rather drag my own teeth out of my head with my own pliers, anymore.  Just done with it.

Want help?  Comply with information.  Options?  Zero, if you're the one that needs the help - and FREE information to fix your gun.  You, that needs the information, are the one that complies with the subtle and polite requests that have been made of new users over the years.  I'm just the complete dickhead that's gonna shut all the bullshiit down, and literally be a dick to new people, that either don't want to comply with the nice requests from the past - that we've made specific threads about in great detail - or those that don't wish/want to comply, and think they're owed information...  just because someone here has the information. 

Call me the "Gun Fixer Information Jackass" if it needs to be.  I'll take any title.  Free info without complete information doesn't get answered here anymore. TIred of guessing, tired of giving out recommendations that don't get followed, - then...  "this is what happened when I shot it last, it didn't work again..."  Well, guess what - you applied HALF of what you were told to do, and didn't do the other half.  Your gun is STILL fucked up because you either cannot follow directions, or you decided to NOT FOLLOW directions.

At this point, MY point is - not my problem.  Figure it out on your own.

Please, @Joky375 don't take my rant as personal, or directed at you.  It certainly IS specifically directed at all those before you, that don't listen to "recommendations."  They're not really recommendations - they're guaranteed fixes, for what ailes your gun.  We've figured it out.  Done.  Already did it, and shot it.  It works, THIS way.

When you receive "recommendations" here on how to fix your gun - that's exactly what you need to do to fix your gun.  This isn't given lightly, it's not a "guess", and it's not "what might work" - it's what WILL work.  It's from years of experience, years of shooting these things, and literally THOUSANDS of dollars on ammo, per dude that's stating something - experimenting on this platform, and that goes across multiple calibers.  Just about every caliber that you can shoot through this Large Frame platform, we've already done, played with, figured it out, and spent too much money on it getting that done.

We don't do this - buy different calibers and play around - to help the whole community.  It's purely selfish, and vindictive, on a personal nature, because there's never gonna be a caliber or barrel configuration that beats any one man here.  We're relentless in that.

The Large Frame Platform is already mastered, in just about every caliber you can imagine.  It's already been done here, figured out, solved, and posted about.  If not, and you have some weird shiit you wanna shoot - we have the intelligence to figure it out and get your gun running.

Again, sorry for the second rant - bottom line - help US help YOU with this gun.  It'll get solved, I guarantee you that.

Off the soapbox now...  :soap:

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On 1/16/2023 at 10:24 PM, Joky375 said:

The first, 762x51 149gr, wouldn’t cycle.

You need to shoot better ammo, first off.  I'm going through things in your details that I'll keep giving info on...

On 1/16/2023 at 10:24 PM, Joky375 said:

The rounds feed and shot, but wouldn’t eject.  I had the same results with 308 180gr, but the Hornady 308 165gr seemed to work fine.

So, the Hornady 165gr locked a bolt back with one round in the magazine?  That's the test, right there - one round, lockback, from a mag.  Tells you that the gas system and the recoil system are pretty close, especially on a new gun, right out of the box.  Or new build, out of box, first time firing.

On 1/16/2023 at 10:24 PM, Joky375 said:

Aero Precision M5 lower & upper, AP M5 MOE LPK w/FCG, AP .308 Rifle Buffer Kit (5.6oz buffer), Wilson Combat 18” Super Sniper fluted stainless barrel (1/10), WC AR308 Nickel Boron BCG, WC 16.25” Handguard, WC AR10 rifle length gas tube (15.5”), WC lo-profile non-adjustable gas block (.875),

Get into the details of that AP rifle buffer kit you used.  Got buffer weight at 5.6oz, but is that listed weight - or what you weighed on a scale?  5.4 is what a rifle buffer should weigh.  Almost no way around that, by it's design.  Buffer length, receiver extension internal depth, spring length, coil count and wire diameter...   You did a good job describing the parts used, but on the barrel you didn't state the gas system length.  Easy for me to figure out, because you stated gas tube length of 15.5" - it's rifle length gas, and it's the Armalite AR-10 rifle gas tube length.  Glad to see WC doing that, selling it, because they know their gas port location is fucked up, and "in between" - which is bullshiit, and they know they shouldn't be doing it. 

Pick a standard, Wilson Combat, and fucking stick to it.  Go one way, and go AR15 shiit - or get your act together with the AR-10 gas system, and do it right.  Halfway is lazy, Wilson Combat, and you know it.  Get a better CNC Operator that knows the difference, or TRAIN your CNC Operator TO THE DIFFERENCES... 

On 1/16/2023 at 10:24 PM, Joky375 said:

After seeing others having issues with short gas tubes in the past, I checked mine and the gas tube extends a bit more than halfway thru the cam cutout in the upper receiver.

That's because you got the 15.50" Armalite AR-10 spec rifle gas tube.  The AR15 Rifle gas tube would have had your tube ending in the front of the cam pin cutout, which sucks.  What you have - That's fine.  Better to have a little more "gas timing" than having "not enough gas timing"...   Your cartridges that are extracted from the chamber will appreciate it - and you'll appreciate it, if you'll be reloading your brass that's extracted and ejected. "Not enough gas timing" - shortass gas tubes - want to start extracting your brass before the case has cooled in the chamber, and you'll see bent rims, and all kinds of other problems with your brass.  Not a big deal if you're not reloading, and just throwing away range brass.  A gas tube that extends beyond the center of the cam pin cutout is still providing gas pressure - and little too long - than what it's supposed to - but that doesn't damage brass.  It doesn't start extracting early, like a shortass gas tube, but it still gives a little more push after the extraction process starts - and that's okay.  Not detrimental.

Again - not a rant on you, man.  This is free education.  Please don't think I'm attacking you, because that's not the intent.

I'm not preaching at you, demeaning you in any way - what I've stated is the the complete dumbasses that come after you and read this thread - and want to try to argue something.  Shut 'em down right now. 

Edited by 98Z5V
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On 1/16/2023 at 10:24 PM, Joky375 said:

WC lo-profile non-adjustable gas block (.875),

This will change gas port diameter details, that I've previously listed, and what most people know here, from my gas port information that I've posted previously here.  You're 18" rifle gas, with a journal diameter of 0.875".  That's not the common barrel config - 0.750" journal for the barrel you describe is common, and anyone can figure that one out, by now.

I've like to see what WC drilled that thing at, and those numbered bits that were mentioned before is the gonna be the only way to determine that gas port diameter that you have right now.  I already know what size port you need for it - I wanna see what it's at right now, to see if that matches up with what you're stating about ammo performance so far...

Edited by 98Z5V
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Thanks for guidance folks! I’ve posted my “Introduction” and taken the time to read thru the “Waterboarding” post (and a few others).
Special thanks to 98Z5V, I understand the gruff, no bullpoopy, approach to providing assistance to us “newbies” here. After reading through just a few previous threads regarding “requests for assistance” I get a general idea of the source of frustration and exasperation. I’ve got 28 years diagnosing and resolving complicated fiber optic and telecommunications problems (both in-person & remotely) and nothing, NOTHING, is worse than trying to help someone who refuses to follow direction, can’t/won’t answer direct questions, or is simply bound and determined to “do it their own way” (and they generally blame you when it doesn’t work). So, please understand that I value your time and effort as well as my own. 
With that said, I’ll try to provide the “community” with the info y’all need to understand my issue with my AR308, and maybe you folks will be able to see what exactly I (or the parts suppliers) screwed up when I built this beast….

I managed to find a numbered drill bit set and digital calipers today, so I can provide almost everything in the “Waterboarding” list:

1.Do you have an Armalite AR10 recoil system? I may not understand the term correctly, but no, I don’t. I have an Aero Precision M5 .308 Rifle Buffer kit.

2.Buffer weight: AP advertises it as 5.6oz, but my digital scale shows 5.0oz

3.Buffer length: 5 5/16in

4. Extension buffer tube internal depth: 9 11/16in

5.What spring, length, coils, brand, color? The spring came with the Aero Precision M5 .308 Buffer Kit. It’s length is 12in, it’s has 37 coils (possibly 38… not sure the correct way to count the coils), and it’s bronze in color.

6.Gas system length: Rifle

7. Gas tube length: 15.5in. It’s the WC “AR10 rifle length” gas tube.

8.Photo directly into the magwell… (presumably for tube position so I’ve removed the lower for pic)

D86D1DD6-BEDC-4F55-AF4D-59119F86129D.thumb.jpeg.676f412708a8b0fcb335e6f205308ccf.jpeg

9.Photo of bolt face…

1B701A6C-CF37-41B5-A09E-EFC01C18A9B6.thumb.jpeg.f98bc6f3fbf76855a1398bdc2f0399dc.jpeg

10. BCG clearance at ears and bolt stop…. Sorry, I’m not exactly sure what is meant by clearance at ears and bolt stop. Could I get some clarification?

11. Gas journal diameter: 0.8745. Gas port diameter: 0.0885

8ED4EEC9-55A7-47A8-934F-121453272314.thumb.jpeg.8b8f344bb0aa8c1aa7c52ceb37fc2af2.jpeg

3B313B5D-13DF-4165-868D-56A89B88FBB8.thumb.jpeg.502241b8a5d331b153629f8789134fba.jpeg
 

12. Photo and description of the malfunction or issue… Unfortunately, I didn’t snap a pic of the issue while at the range. I should be able to get back out there by this weekend, and I snap some pics. But the description is as follows: The rifle wouldn’t cycle 7.62x51 ammo nor .308 180gr ammo. I inserted a magazine, advanced top cartridge manually with the charging handle, fired, and when I looked at the BCG it was still closed and spent casing had not ejected. I could pull back the charging handle (with a lot of resistance), and it ejected the spend casing and advanced the next round. Not knowing what to look for, I didn’t observe the BCG while firing to see how much (if any) travel occurred, but I can check on the next trip. Also, when I tried the 165gr .308 ammo, it seemed to operate correctly, but I must admit that I don’t recall if it locked open on last round of the magazine.

 

OK, that’s the best info I have at the moment. If you think we need the info, and someone could explain further about measuring the BCG clearance at ears and bolt stop, I will gladly provide it. I know, I know,  I should’ve gathered more info (and some pics) about the malfunction while at the range, but it just didn’t occur to me at the time. Any direction on what, exactly, I can look for while at the range would be appreciated. Let me know what would help you folks diagnose this issue, and I’ll gladly do my best to provide. I’m fairly sure that this bad-boy should cycle more than one specific brand of ammo.

 

Thanks again, in advance, for your time and insight.

 

 

 

 

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52 minutes ago, Joky375 said:

1.Do you have an Armalite AR10 recoil system? I may not understand the term correctly, but no, I don’t. I have an Aero Precision M5 .308 Rifle Buffer kit.

2.Buffer weight: AP advertises it as 5.6oz, but my digital scale shows 5.0oz  Should be 5.4oz, I've had 5.15oz working in one very accurate .260 Rem gun for several years.  I think you'll be able to get away with 5.0oz, so shoot it and see what happens, before you buy a buffer.  It's weird that it came up 5.0...  

3.Buffer length: 5 5/16in Should be 5.200" for a rifle buffer in a Large Frame of the Armalite pattern or DPMS LR-308 pattern. 5/16" comes out to 0.313", which makes that buffer a little over 100 thou too long - for normal.  For a spec, if there was one.  Shave 100 thou off that polymer bumper on the back.  Seriously.  Let's just eliminate this as an issue, that way.  Put that thing on the belt sander.

4. Extension buffer tube internal depth: 9 11/16in  Perfect for a rifle receiver extension.  Can't get any better than that.

5.What spring, length, coils, brand, color? The spring came with the Aero Precision M5 .308 Buffer Kit. It’s length is 12in, it’s has 37 coils (possibly 38… not sure the correct way to count the coils), and it’s bronze in color.  Ditch the spring.  It's an unknown, and doesn't match common springs that are known to work perfectly.  The two springs you can choose from, that are guaranteed to work properly, are the Armalite EA-1095 spring, and the Sprinco Red spring.  Those two are interchangeable, and indistinguishable in operation.

6.Gas system length: Rifle

7. Gas tube length: 15.5in. It’s the WC “AR10 rifle length” gas tube.  Works.  Far better than if there was a 15.25" AR15 rifle gas tube in there, which would come up short in the cam pin cutout.  Short tubes cheat you of gas timing.  Gas pressure needed for unlocking the bolt.  The gas key separates from the short gas tube early, that vents all other gas pressure, and it just sucks for overall operation.  Having it extent a little past halfway in the cam pin cutout in the upper is actually better, you get more gas timing, and no early gas shut off.  Don't worry about it extending past the halfway point - that's far better than being short of it.

Nice work, man - well done.  Couple things going on here, so I hit them above in red text.

52 minutes ago, Joky375 said:

11. Gas journal diameter: 0.8745. Gas port diameter: 0.0885

This sucks.  18" rifle gas .308 Win barrels with 0.750" journals need 0.095" ports.  I've found that to be the minimum, with one of mine at 0.098".  So, larger journal, by one step, drop the number by 0.05".  You're gonna need 0.090" minimum, maybe up one more step with the bit to around 0.093". 

So, my recommendation: #43 bit clears.  That's 0.088"-ish.  $42 doesn't clear.  #42 is supposed to be 0.935".  Make that #42 drill bit fit.  Drill the gas port with it.  That will fix issues you've described. 

On 1/16/2023 at 10:24 PM, Joky375 said:

When complete, I went to the local range with some friends (who had the same idea). I tested the 308 with several types of ammunition. The first, 762x51 149gr, wouldn’t cycle. The rounds feed and shot, but wouldn’t eject.  I had the same results with 308 180gr, but the Hornady 308 165gr seemed to work fine.

This is it.  It wants to work, it's trying.  Just a couple things handicapping it.  Was the 15.5" WC gas tube in there the whole time, or did you recently add that?  I honestly think the recoil spring change and the change on the gas port diameter is gonna have it running.

Edited by 98Z5V
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1 hour ago, Joky375 said:

10. BCG clearance at ears and bolt stop…. Sorry, I’m not exactly sure what is meant by clearance at ears and bolt stop. Could I get some clarification?

So, remove the recoil spring, drop the buffer down into the extension.  slide the BCG body into the extension until it stops on the buffer.  You're looking at 2 things here - with the bolt extended in the BCG body, how much clearance do you have between the bolt face, and the backside of the bolt catch?  You typically want to see 3/16" gap.

BoltClearance.thumb.jpg.286268a1ae76e53c158d057d2b3619d2.jpg

The second thing you're checing is the BCG body at the back, by the ears on the lower receiver.  The BCG body changes diameter, and where it steps up, you want to make sure there's adequate clearance between that step-up area, and the ears on the lower.  If it's already touching like that, and you shoot it, that BCG body will be slamming the ears on the lower, under recoil.  It'll beat the shiit out of your lower before it could posssibly damage the BCG - but that is an indicator of a bad design, when you see it, or it's the wrong components used un the build of the gun.

BoltClearance2.thumb.jpg.69ace335aa3e07d55e00adf326586509.jpg

Edited by 98Z5V
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Thanks for the quick reply 98Z5V, and all the recommendations!
It looks like I’m ordering the Armalite EA-1095 spring, shaving/sanding down the buffer length by 100 thousandths, and drilling out the gas port with the #42 bit. I’ll let you know how these changes affect performance at the range.
I should be able to check the BCG clearance at ears and bolt stop tomorrow and report back. Your explanation cleared it up for me and I think I can get you accurate info now, thanks. I didn’t see any indication of the BCG slamming into the lower under recoil, but better safe than sorry.

I actually DID order the shorter gas tube originally (it’s lying around my workshop somewhere…) but luckily I saw a thread on this forum (I think) explaining the issue. Needless to say, I ordered and installed the longer tube before I ever tested the rifle.

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This is what it looks like when the BCG strikes the lower:

JLnwmdS.jpg

It's always the same, looks the same - this one is pretty bad.  It's 100% from wrong parts used, or bad parts from a manufacturer, dimensions not even close to being right.  Always. 

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Here are other examples:

BCG hitting buffer tube : r/AR10

What do you make of this? | Sniper's Hide Forum

Ironic that this pic is from PSA. 

BCG hitting buffer tube : r/AR10

PSA changed their own "Gen 3" lower receiver to account for incorrect operation, and they milled the lower receiver to account for the wrong dimensions, but you wouldn't be able to tell.  To them, this "fixed the problem..."

PSA GEN3 PA10 .308 COMPLETE CLASSIC EPT LOWER RECEIVER

PSA GEN3 PA10 .308 COMPLETE CLASSIC EPT LOWER RECEIVER

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7 minutes ago, sketch said:

😄 🤣 😂 psa 308 love and hate relationship.  🍻🍻

For their .308s, it's all hate.  No matter what, they just can't get it right, and refuse to fix it.  They know what the problems are - they just want money from cheap guns.  They don't care. 

You'd be better off buying CMMG .308s.

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Thanks for the quick reply 98Z5V, and all the recommendations!
It looks like I’m ordering the Armalite EA-1095 spring, shaving/sanding down the buffer length by 100 thousandths, and drilling out the gas port with the #42 bit. I’ll let you know how these changes affect performance at the range.
I should be able to check the BCG clearance at ears and bolt stop tomorrow and report back. Your explanation cleared it up for me and I think I can get you accurate info now, thanks. I didn’t see any indication of the BCG slamming into the lower under recoil, but better safe than sorry.

I actually DID order the shorter gas tube originally (it’s lying around my workshop somewhere…) but luckily I saw a thread on this forum (I think) explaining the issue. Needless to say, I ordered and installed the longer tube before I ever tested the rifle.

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Well, Hell….. I dunno how I managed to post a duplicate of my last post?!?!

Well, anyhow, just a little status update for those of you kind enough to care whether my build operates correctly or not. Your advice and direction is MORE than merely appreciated.

As far as Shooterrex’s suggestion that I soak the BCG in MobileOne overnight…. Best I could do was oil the Hell out of it… I don’t have the MobileOne or a vat to soak it in… but I’ll still consider it if the other fixes don’t resolve my issues. I’d piss on a spark plug if I thought it’d do any good!

98Z5V, I placed the order for the Armalite EA-1095 spring last night and it’s in the mail. If the USPS maintains its current performance, I should have it somewhere between 4days and 1 month. (LOL, it’s hit-and-miss in rural southern Oregon). I drilled out the gas port using the #42 bit, but honestly, I think I shaved just as much metal off the bit as the port walls. The port IS slightly bigger, but I still can’t get the smooth end of bit shaft through the port. That barrel steel is no joke, and  the only numbered bit set I could find locally was a cheap Harbor Freight set (but they are titanium bits). There’s one other place in the area I can try, otherwise Ill just have to order a set online. If it comes to that, I may ask for ideas on a quality numbered bit set manufacturer. I had better success shaving (sanding) the 100 thousandths off the buffer. I followed your instructions and measured BCG to bolt stop and got just a touch over 1/8in. The distance between the ears on the lower and the step-up on the BCG body is 1/4in.

I’ll report back soon. Thanks again!

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