ELR Optic Shopping

[BigNate]

As I mentioned in a couple of other places - my envy of @Magwa's "next zip code" rifle got me to plunk down some dollars and the Savage 110 Elite Precision in .338LM will be here next week.    I'm starting to shop for my first genuinely high quality optic.  The use will be essentially exclusive to distances at or past 1000Y.   I have until October to buy it - so if the right answer is to slap a spare Arken SH4 6-24 on it for load development shooting, while I save my pennies for a Schmidt & Bender mortgage replacement - I can do that...  On the other hand - I'm a value shopper - I'm absolutely willing to spend more money for more performance (particularly if it's performance I can use) - but I don't want to spend money for a name.   There's a reason that the .338 is the ~$2K savage, not an AI AXMC or Barret MRAD... Those are both fantastic guns - but neither will give me more value than the Savage which is 1/3 - 1/5th their price).   

So - I did a bit of digging and started building a list.  Initial criteria follow - but NOTHING is set in stone... this is a brave new world for me - and I'm looking for guidance.  Anyway - assumptions are:
1) FFP

2) No less than 24x magnification and more likely will end up 30X+ unless someone can convince me that I won't want more if / when I try to get to the next level after earning my 2200' of bust coozie...

3) MIL units - I've been really working to learn to "think" in those terms - so...  Oh - and at least 15milrad of adjustment. 

There are a bunch of other things that I'm "pretty sure" about ("HD" glass, etc.) but I'm sure that I'll get pointed in the right direction without sharing them with you.   

So - digging around a bit I built a list that I think covers the range in which I'm looking.   I'd need to be convinced to buy something on either end of the range (convinced that the really expensive stuff is worth it - and convinced that the more inexpensive stuff won't leave me wishing I'd spent more).   This is in no way a final list - it's just what I've come up with as a starting point to start the research (it was based on a few "ELR Scope" and I removed some stuff that I knew I didn't want).   If I were buying something based on reputation and a guess alone - I'd be looking for a used ATACR from a trusted source... but I have some time - and friends to consult...  So... let the educatin' begin.   

Brand	Model
Kahles	K540i
Kahles	K328i
Kahles	K525i 5-25x56 FFP
Nightforce	ATACR 7-35x56
Steiner	M7Xi 4-28x56
Vortex	Razor HD Gen III 6-36x56
Leupold	Mark 5HD 7-35x56
Tract	TORIC UHD 4.5-30X56 34mm MRAD ELR FFP Rifle Scope
Athlon	CRONUS BTR GEN2 UHD 4.5-29×56 APRS6
Athlon	ARES ETR GEN2 UHD 4.5-30×56
Athlon	Ares BTR Gen 2 4.5-27x50
Arken	EP5 G2 7-35X56

 

Edited June 13 by BigNate

[98Z5V]

2 hours ago, BigNate said:

Oh - and at least 15milrad of adjustment. 

You'll need WAY more than that, brother. Just on my WinMag, I'm 16.9 Mils to the Mile, and that is with a 500 yard zero, which bottoms out the elevation wheel at that distance.  The Nikon I have advertised 17 Mils of elevation afjustment, but it really has 23 Mils of travel, and I have all 23 Mils available to dial UP with that 500 zero.  

2 hours ago, BigNate said:

Athlon CRONUS BTR GEN2 UHD 4.5-29×56 APRS6

Athlon ARES ETR GEN2 UHD 4.5-30×56

I have the second one sitting at the GunPusher's shop right now.  The Cronus, which is a badass piece of glass, has 32 Mils of elevation, and 18 Mils of windage.  That particular Ares ETR has 32 and 32 Mils, elevation and windage.  I went that route, just because of that.  

There's another one out there, and we'll have to ask @JBMatt what the exact model is, but he put a Zeiss on Joy's .300 Norma Mag rifle that has 55 (FIFTY-FIVE!!!) Mil of available elevation in it!!!   

So, my advice - I've done the homework on those two Athlon optics for ya, right there.  Go back and research the others on your list, and see what they have for available (or advertised) elevation travel.   

You want a good piece of glass, with the most elevation travel you can afford...   

FWIW, we found that we were shooting the Mile at about 16x.  We used that for the 2k shots.  It works.  You can identify the target, see it easily, send the shot, go through recoil recovery, and be back on target to see your own hit or miss, just because it's a huge field of view at those distances.  The more you crank it up, the more you'll see yourself being shaky AF, and the smaller field of view you'll have...

My $0.02.

Edited Friday at 11:46 PM by 98Z5V

[98Z5V]

4 hours ago, BigNate said:

 I have until October to buy it - so if the right answer is to slap a spare Arken SH4 6-24 on it for load development shooting, while I save my pennies for a Schmidt & Bender mortgage replacement - I can do that... 

I forgot to hit up this comment from ya, brother.  My opinion...   Yeah, do it.   I have a Burris Fullfield E1 in 6.5x20 on mine right now, came with the gun.  I don't really like it, but it also doesn't completely suck.  I'll leave it on there for now, to do load development in the short term, because I only need to go to 100 yards to get that job done.  The scope will fully do it's job for that.  When I'm done with it, I'll sell it to a buddy at work.

Once I pay off my GunPusher, and pick up that Ares ETR, it's getting put on.  

[Magwa]

This is the scope I shoot it has the most dial up of any scope I have found 36 Mils up down and 36 mils windage, lifetime warranty,no questions asked even if your dog eats it....and if you look at the presicion rifle blog what the pro's use 1/2 of the top ten shooters are shooting vortex it has a 4.9 star rating, and it works for value, and quality the gen one which is the link is on sale for fathers day they are hard to find but I think they said 3 in stock it fit every criteria i asked comes with everything to get going sunshade scope covers ,has a nice red lit reticle.....I have been shooting one for 4 years ,took it off my 6.5x284 and put it on the 338 never looked back..my 2 cents oh and it is sexy as hell....

P.S. I shoot all my ELR at 16 to 18 power....

 

https://www.opticsplanet.com/v/rzr-52006-vortex-razor-hd-5-20x50-riflescope.html

Edited Saturday at 01:17 PM by Magwa

[JBMatt]

@BigNate I like what you're doing!  This is going to be awesome.  You have quite the list of potential optics, and you're headed in the right direction.  It all depends on how far you want to try and stretch that thing out by dialing.  With the right amount of pre-MOA cant, you can reach out pretty far with just about anything on that list.

I've hit out to 2,300ish yds with less than what you have listed there.  I've done it with the Athlon Cronus (which is beautiful), an Arken SH-4J and an Athlon Ares.  I've shot through a MK4 and MK5 and both are great.  What all these have in common is they all have (same with your list above) an internal travel of around 32 MILS, give or take.  If you have the right amount of MOA built into the rail and the mount, you can nearly bottom out the scope with a 100 zero and have ALL the internal up travel for dialing.  30ish MILS is a lot.  But it will limit your potential for the really long distances.  But that may not matter to you.

We put the Zeiss LRP S3 ($2,300ish) on my girlfriends 300 Norma Magnum.  It has a 20 MOA base and 40 MOA mount.  I did all the maths (carry the 2...) and with what is available this is what I came up with for that set up.  That glass has 55 MILS of internal travel, the only one that I know of unless you get into the uber premium stuff, and still it's right there.  After zeroing at 100, it currently has 45 MILS of actual dial left over.  That gives this setup the ability to dial somewhere in the 2800+ range.  That's a long ways with a 100 yd zero, which is exactly what we were going for.  Only having 32 MILS of total adjustment would limit dialing to right around 2,500 yds, which is still a long ways.

So you have some decisions to make.  I'd get the best glass you can justify with a reticle that makes sense to you.  Buy once, cry once.  I know @Magwa is happy with his Razor, as he should be.  It's a premium piece of glass.  I'm happy with my Cronus, too.  Leopold is great. And the Zeiss is absolutely gorgeous.  We make all these shot in the 16x-18x range.  Until it happens, I can't see going over 20x.  However, what's nice about having a scope that can zoom to over 24x, is I believe that when you're in the lower end to middle of the zoom range, the image is better than if you turn an 18x all the way up to max. Or even a 24x turned up to 20x.  The closer you get to the glass' max, the worse the image becomes regardless of quality.  Some more so than others, of course.  What we experience at the higher powers (20x+) is the mirage becomes exponentially worse and the returns diminish quickly, no matter the quality of the optic. Plus the ability to keep the target in view to spot impacts/misses is harder when you're zoomed way in.

34mm tube is a must, and most all of the best scopes have that.  Makes a HUGE difference over a 30mm tube.  More light transfer, clearer image, more available dial and wider field of view.  50mm or 56mm objective is up to you.  It can or can't be a benefit.  The scope can only use as much light as can fit in the tube, so sometimes a bigger objective doesn't make any real world difference.  Some guys say 56mm is just a gimmick.  But they look cool!

This is all just my opinion and experience.  Take it for what it's worth.

I can hardly wait for Fall Shoot!  This is going to be EPIC!!

Edited Saturday at 02:01 PM by JBMatt

[JBMatt]

Here's some light reading with some pictures that will give you more to contemplate, or validate where you're already headed, and what we've said.

https://precisionrifleblog.com/2020/09/05/best-elr-scope-and-scope-mount-and-rings/

 

[BigNate]

17 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

You'll need WAY more than that, brother. Just on my WinMag, I'm 16.9 Mils to the Mile, and that is with a 500 yard zero, which bottoms out the elevation wheel at that distance.  The Nikon I have advertised 17 Mils of elevation afjustment, but it really has 23 Mils of travel, and I have all 23 Mils available to dial UP with that 500 zero.  

I have the second one sitting at the GunPusher's shop right now.  The Cronus, which is a badass piece of glass, has 32 Mils of elevation, and 18 Mils of windage.  That particular Ares ETR has 32 and 32 Mils, elevation and windage.  I went that route, just because of that.  

There's another one out there, and we'll have to ask @JBMatt what the exact model is, but he put a Zeiss on Joy's .300 Norma Mag rifle that has 55 (FIFTY-FIVE!!!) Mil of available elevation in it!!!   

So, my advice - I've done the homework on those two Athlon optics for ya, right there.  Go back and research the others on your list, and see what they have for available (or advertised) elevation travel.   

You want a good piece of glass, with the most elevation travel you can afford...   

FWIW, we found that we were shooting the Mile at about 16x.  We used that for the 2k shots.  It works.  You can identify the target, see it easily, send the shot, go through recoil recovery, and be back on target to see your own hit or miss, just because it's a huge field of view at those distances.  The more you crank it up, the more you'll see yourself being shaky AF, and the smaller field of view you'll have...

My $0.02.

Thanks sir... Yeah - I have ZERO clue what I was looking at when I came up with 15 MILs as my adjustment need.  I had plugged in ballpark data for the 300gr Berger Hybrid OTM at 2750 into the the ballistics app that I use - and went out to 2900Y - and grabbed a number... I just did it again - and the best I can guess is I was thinking about 1780 and grabbed the number for one mile instead of 2900... or at least that's the only explanation that I've got for that... 

Part of the reason for looking at the much bigger magnification is that I don't expect that I'll ever use this gun or optic for anything short of 1000Y other than load development - and like Matt says below - image quality deteriorates (a bit at least) when you get to the end of the optic's magnification range - so I'd rather be at 24X on a 6-36X than on a 4-24X (or at least I THINK I would...).  The other biggie for me in that space is that in my experience the eye-box shrinks when you get to the end of the range.  I understand (or think I understand) that the more I spend, the less this applies as well - if that's not true - please chime in - because that is something I worry about.   

I'm not in a place where I can just go pick up a $6800 Tangent Theta to try it out... but I am in a place where I can save for a few months and go from a $2000 scope to a $4000 scope IF the difference is something that actually matters to me and helps me.   

I just watched this video and found it useful - although it's pretty focused on stuff at the top of the range...

 

It did really get me thinking about the Kahles - primarily because my old eyes are increasingly light dependent (I have a really hard time reading restaurant menu's in dim light - but if I grab the phone flashlight and put light on the text it is much better)... I know it's not a 1:1 comparison - but their findings regarding field of view and "brightness" for the Kahles - really has me considering whether I should save for it. 

 

[BigNate]

4 hours ago, Magwa said:

This is the scope I shoot it has the most dial up of any scope I have found 36 Mils up down and 36 mils windage, lifetime warranty,no questions asked even if your dog eats it....and if you look at the presicion rifle blog what the pro's use 1/2 of the top ten shooters are shooting vortex it has a 4.9 star rating, and it works for value, and quality the gen one which is the link is on sale for fathers day they are hard to find but I think they said 3 in stock it fit every criteria i asked comes with everything to get going sunshade scope covers ,has a nice red lit reticle.....I have been shooting one for 4 years ,took it off my 6.5x284 and put it on the 338 never looked back..my 2 cents oh and it is sexy as hell....

P.S. I shoot all my ELR at 16 to 18 power....

 

https://www.opticsplanet.com/v/rzr-52006-vortex-razor-hd-5-20x50-riflescope.html

 

Thanks sir... I expect I'll get some sort of "tree" reticle... I'm still very much learning what works for me in that space - and I don't have a strong preference other than the open center, FFP, and a "tree" of some sort. 

How far out have you shot that at 16-18?  I am in "buy once cry once" mode relative to ELR... I'm guessing I've got real work to do before I'm shooting out past a mile - but I absolutely daydream about shooting out at 3560 and don't want to wish I had more if I ever get to the place where that's not total pipe-dream... 

[BigNate]

4 hours ago, JBMatt said:

@BigNate I like what you're doing!  This is going to be awesome.  You have quite the list of potential optics, and you're headed in the right direction.  It all depends on how far you want to try and stretch that thing out by dialing.  With the right amount of pre-MOA cant, you can reach out pretty far with just about anything on that list.

I've hit out to 2,300ish yds with less than what you have listed there.  I've done it with the Athlon Cronus (which is beautiful), an Arken SH-4J and an Athlon Ares.  I've shot through a MK4 and MK5 and both are great.  What all these have in common is they all have (same with your list above) an internal travel of around 32 MILS, give or take.  If you have the right amount of MOA built into the rail and the mount, you can nearly bottom out the scope with a 100 zero and have ALL the internal up travel for dialing.  30ish MILS is a lot.  But it will limit your potential for the really long distances.  But that may not matter to you.

We put the Zeiss LRP S3 ($2,300ish) on my girlfriends 300 Norma Magnum.  It has a 20 MOA base and 40 MOA mount.  I did all the maths (carry the 2...) and with what is available this is what I came up with for that set up.  That glass has 55 MILS of internal travel, the only one that I know of unless you get into the uber premium stuff, and still it's right there.  After zeroing at 100, it currently has 45 MILS of actual dial left over.  That gives this setup the ability to dial somewhere in the 2800+ range.  That's a long ways with a 100 yd zero, which is exactly what we were going for.  Only having 32 MILS of total adjustment would limit dialing to right around 2,500 yds, which is still a long ways.

So you have some decisions to make.  I'd get the best glass you can justify with a reticle that makes sense to you.  Buy once, cry once.  I know @Magwa is happy with his Razor, as he should be.  It's a premium piece of glass.  I'm happy with my Cronus, too.  Leopold is great. And the Zeiss is absolutely gorgeous.  We make all these shot in the 16x-18x range.  Until it happens, I can't see going over 20x.  However, what's nice aboIut having a scope that can zoom to over 24x, is I believe that when you're in the lower end to middle of the zoom range, the image is better than if you turn an 18x all the way up to max. Or even a 24x turned up to 20x.  The closer you get to the glass' max, the worse the image becomes regardless of quality.  Some more so than others, of course.  What we experience at the higher powers (20x+) is the mirage becomes exponentially worse and the returns diminish quickly, no matter the quality of the optic. Plus the ability to keep the target in view to spot impacts/misses is harder when you're zoomed way in.

34mm tube is a must, and most all of the best scopes have that.  Makes a HUGE difference over a 30mm tube.  More light transfer, clearer image, more available dial and wider field of view.  50mm or 56mm objective is up to you.  It can or can't be a benefit.  The scope can only use as much light as can fit in the tube, so sometimes a bigger objective doesn't make any real world difference.  Some guys say 56mm is just a gimmick.  But they look cool!

This is all just my opinion and experience.  Take it for what it's worth.

I can hardly wait for Fall Shoot!  This is going to be EPIC!!

Thanks much Matt.   Thanks for the precision shooting blog link as well... I've added the Zeiss and Magwa's Razor to the list... as well as some others.   I had started eliminating stuff that had 30mm tubes - totally in agreement with the 34mm+ tube.  I'm still totally in bench-racing mode with this stuff - but I had assumed that I'd probably zero this at 500 yards if possible.  I mentioned above that the reason I'm looking at the very large magnification scopes is aligned with what you state above - being able to work in the middle (or at least not at the very end) of the range...

 

As to the objective lens "56 is gimmick" - I've heard the same thing - and I interpret that as being true to a degree - or in some circumstances... In other words - my read is that it's not a "gimmick" - but what you get out of it is not generally necessary for most shooters doing most things.  I see it in the same was as the 34mm tube - that "more light is better" but for most people in most situations who are shooting targets or deer at 300 yards they'll never see the difference... but when shooting targets at 2500+ yards having just that little bit more might be the thing that lets you spot your splash on a miss - so for lots of folks, extra $ for the larger lens is wasted - but if you're doing things where the extra 3% of light (or clarity, or... ) matters - it isn't.  Maybe I'm thinking about it wrong - but it's how I'm thinking about it.. 

Edited Saturday at 06:18 PM by BigNate

[98Z5V]

Nate, keep this in mind as well - you will want some sort of christmas tree reticle, no doubt.  Don't get confused by it, or worry about understanding it, but you'll need it, in the long run.  Bottom line is this - no matter how confusing it might look to you, WE can teach you how to use it, and maximize the benefits of it.   

In the spoken words of my friend @JBMatt...   "I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you..."  

We can all help you understand any reticle that you end up buying.  Fuq, I'll teach a specific class on your scope, just directly to you, with everyone else sitting around - just so they can get smarter, too...   

[Magwa]

17 hours ago, BigNate said:

 

Thanks sir... I expect I'll get some sort of "tree" reticle... I'm still very much learning what works for me in that space - and I don't have a strong preference other than the open center, FFP, and a "tree" of some sort. 

How far out have you shot that at 16-18?  I am in "buy once cry once" mode relative to ELR... I'm guessing I've got real work to do before I'm shooting out past a mile - but I absolutely daydream about shooting out at 3560 and don't want to wish I had more if I ever get to the place where that's not total pipe-dream... 

I have shot it to 2280 no problem at all seeing the target trace and impact... my pipe dream is also 3500 or so and I do not think I will be handicapped with 20 power the field of view gets to narrow much above that for me.....also the more power you use the worse the mirage gets and mirage can be a bitch but also your friend....and the Gen 1 6 to 20 in a 35 MM tube... you will be looking for more dial up after I would say 2400... and that is a whole other rabbit hole... Kalaes ,Night force, and another to look at in that 4000 range is No Compromise, they are made right here in my home town same as Night force... the original owner of NF started No compromise and they are OMG stellar Optics..I have shot all three and my eyes for 4 to 24 power can not tell a 2 grand difference..over my Razor but that is me and I am a old fart... so your Milage may vary....

Edited Sunday at 11:37 AM by Magwa

[98Z5V]

@BigNate, brother, now, the next step, after you pick a scope...  

#1.  Get the scope in hand, and actually dial it's full max potential.  Do that first.  Once you know your total travel...

#2.  Plan out your mounting solution.  Figure out a way to take up almost all of your down travel in the scope.

Example:  My current plan for the .338 - The Athlon I'm getting has 32 Mils advertised. I'll get it in-hand first and test it.  32 total would be 16 up and 16 down from center.  I want to take up the 16 down, and eliminate it, so I have full dial.  The rifle has a 20 MOA base on it already.  If I pick up the Burris XTR Signature rings, I can dial 40 MOA into those rings.  That will give me 60 MOA total, built into the mounting solution.  60 MOA / 3.4377 = 17.45 Mils.  That would take up all my down travel, but would not give me a 100 yard zero, which I don't care about in the least for this gun.  If I have to throw a 500 yard zero on it, I'm perfectly fine with that.  And again, maybe they advertise 32 Mils, but in-hand, it's really 36 Mils of total travel - I have a 100 yard zero, which I don't care about at all, and I can take that up with another 10 MOA in the base...  Change the 20 MOA on the gun, to a 30 MOA base...

Food for thought, but essential for planning out your mounting solution...   

My loading goal is 2750 fps for the Hornady 300gr A-Tip from the 24" barrel I have.  That won't be hard to achieve.  When I make 2750, accurately, with the combo I listed above, I can dial to 2600 yards, dial only.

With the WinMag, and the Nikon scope with 23 Mils of dial (17 advertised), I intentionally put a 40 MOA base on that rifle, to take up all the down travel in that scope.  Ended up a 500 yard zero.  I can still shoot 100 yards, if necessary, and it's exactly 2.5 Mils of Hold UNDER, for 100 yards...   Everything still works, once you learn the gun...

Edited Sunday at 10:04 PM by 98Z5V

[BigNate]

21 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

@BigNate, brother, now, the next step, after you pick a scope...  

#1.  Get the scope in hand, and actually dial it's full max potential.  Do that first.  Once you know your total travel...

#2.  Plan out your mounting solution.  Figure out a way to take up almost all of your down travel in the scope.

Example:  My current plan for the .338 - The Athlon I'm getting has 32 Mils advertised. I'll get it in-hand first and test it.  32 total would be 16 up and 16 down from center.  I want to take up the 16 down, and eliminate it, so I have full dial.  The rifle has a 20 MOA base on it already.  If I pick up the Burris XTR Signature rings, I can dial 40 MOA into those rings.  That will give me 60 MOA total, built into the mounting solution.  60 MOA / 3.4377 = 17.45 Mils.  That would take up all my down travel, but would not give me a 100 yard zero, which I don't care about in the least for this gun.  If I have to throw a 500 yard zero on it, I'm perfectly fine with that.  And again, maybe they advertise 32 Mils, but in-hand, it's really 36 Mils of total travel - I have a 100 yard zero, which I don't care about at all, and I can take that up with another 10 MOA in the base...  Change the 20 MOA on the gun, to a 30 MOA base...

Food for thought, but essential for planning out your mounting solution...   

My loading goal is 2750 fps for the Hornady 300gr A-Tip from the 24" barrel I have.  That won't be hard to achieve.  When I make 2750, accurately, with the combo I listed above, I can dial to 2600 yards, dial only.

With the WinMag, and the Nikon scope with 23 Mils of dial (17 advertised), I intentionally put a 40 MOA base on that rifle, to take up all the down travel in that scope.  Ended up a 500 yard zero.  I can still shoot 100 yards, if necessary, and it's exactly 2.5 Mils of Hold UNDER, for 100 yards...   Everything still works, once you learn the gun...

 

Thanks @98Z5V and @Magwa...  I'm still looking at stuff... made it through the weekend without buying anything.   I've gotten good pricing from an on-line FFL buddy (I've bought some smaller stuff through him and he's been selling into the other group for years).   Still trying to make a choice.   I'm trying to find a Kahles to put my eye on just to see if I can talk myself into it.   It sounds like the Zeiss is the sweet spot... we'll see what I find a deal on first... I'm pretty convinced that if I do OK on the buy of the Razor or ATACR I can sell them if I don't like them - without taking too much of a bath. 

I'm also stalling a bit because I've got an out of state buddy who's a bit of a gun whore constantly buys and sells stuff (federal law enforcement guy) - I know he had an ATACR that he was talking about selling.   If its the 7-35 or 5-25 I'll probably try to buy it from him.  I can likely get it at a price that would let me break even when reselling it if I decide I want something different. 

Regarding the focus on maximizing internal adjustment - while I get that "more is better" regarding internal adjustment - I'm also looking at it from the perspective of it being a purpose built gun - so I can always add permanent adjustment with the mount. 

I'm a bit of a data nerd - and have been spreadsheeting stuff.    I attached the spreadsheet in case anyone wants to dig in and tell me where I've gone wrong...  The first tab is the list of stuff I've considered and a bunch of data I've pulled for each of them.   The 2nd tab (BallisticsTrajectory JBM) has a copy of the output of a ballistics trajectory chart that I produced for the Berger 300gr OTMs going 2750 at the muzzle and zeroed at 200Y.    So - you can populate U2 with the native rail compensation of the gun (20MOA for the Savage Elite Precision), W2 with additional MOA from the mounting system.   Based on these - and the data from The BallisticsTrajectory JBM tab - Column S will populate with maximum yardage available for each scope.  You can mess with it further by adding holdover MIL in X2 which will bump that yardage accordingly.  I did go back and add another "base MOA adjustment" that could be a perm addition to consoldate adjustment for zeroing. 

Anyway - The difference from worst to first, as I see it, is not a huge factor.  As you say above - mount it such that the scope is effectivly bottomed out and go from there.  Even The gun has 20MOA built into the rail, and I'll assume that I'll get a 20MOA or greater rigid mount.   So using those numbers - and ballistics for the speculative load - if I look at the 5 that I'm seriously considering (marked in blue) - the worst of them is the ATACR 7-35 that should bottom out at about 2389 yards and the best of them is the  Razor HD Gen III at 2499.  If I dial at 500 it bumps these numbers by about 75 yards.  To get to 3000Y with the ATACR I'd need about 75MOA more than that in the mount... and to get there with the Razor, only 52 more from the mount.

Now I've got to look at these https://heritage-arms.com/product-category/gun-parts/cold-shot-llc-adjustable-scope-bases/

Please do poke holes in my thinking... 

ELR Optics.xlsx

[shooterrex]

I hit the mile with hold over and up all the way with a 20 min rail.

I switched to a 50 min rail. Still get a 100yd zero but I'm 1.1 mils from the bottom of the dial. 

Arken 6-24  x̌50mm SH-4 Gen-II

Edited Tuesday at 03:40 AM by shooterrex

[98Z5V]

1 hour ago, shooterrex said:

I hit the mile with hold over and up all the way with a 20 min rail.

I switched to a 50 min rail. Still get a 100yd zero but I'm 1.1 mils from the bottom of the dial. 

Arken 6-24  x̌50mm SH-4 Gen-II

Add the cartridge and firearms details, brother - those matter.   

[shooterrex]

300 win mag Bergara B14 

[BigNate]

2 hours ago, shooterrex said:

300 win mag Bergara B14 

I genuinely gave some thought to getting a B14 HMR in either 7 PRC or 300 PRC for ELR but decided to go to the 338 based on Magwa's experience with the Savage.   I really think that gun is an incredible value. 

[shooterrex]

For a grand it is a great rifle. It shoots very well.

I have been eyeing a Savage 338lm for a while. Just don't want to turn loose with the money.

[BigNate]

9 hours ago, shooterrex said:

For a grand it is a great rifle. It shoots very well.

I have been eyeing a Savage 338lm for a while. Just don't want to turn loose with the money.

I had talked myself out of one for more than a year.   If you come out for the fall shoot you're welcome to put rounds through it...

[shooterrex]

1 hour ago, BigNate said:

I had talked myself out of one for more than a year.   If you come out for the fall shoot you're welcome to put rounds through it...

Sounds like a plan.

[BigNate]

I've watched this guy for a while... and given that he's not selling anything, and is a guy who appears to just love ELR or what he notes in the video as ULR (Ultra Long Range) and does things like shoot a 30-06 or 45-120 at 3000Y... I'd guess that he has something useful to say on the topic of choosing an ELR scope... 

 

 

 

 

Edited 23 hours ago by BigNate

[98Z5V]

We've pretty much tapped the .300 Win Mag out at 2280 yards.  Which was the goal - see how far you can send a Hornady 225gr ELD-M from a Win Mag, and make effective hits on target.  2280 is about it.  We'll try some more this fall, and see if we can get it a little further, but it's not promising.  That's about it's limit.  

Once we surveyed target locations beyond 2280 - is when we realized we need bigger guns.  We have target locations out to 2900 now.  I can dial my .338 LM to 2600-ish, with my optics plan, but that doesn't mean anything until I actually do it.  @JBMatt can dial Joy's .300NM to 3k.  But that still doesn't mean anything, until we do it.  I have no realistic idea what @Magwa can dial to, probably 7 miles now...   And it doesn't mean anything...   Until we do it...

This is the Proving Ground...   

[98Z5V]

11 hours ago, BigNate said:

I've watched this guy for a while... and given that he's not selling anything, and is a guy who appears to just love ELR or what he notes in the video as ULR (Ultra Long Range) and does things like shoot a 30-06 or 45-120 at 3000Y... I'd guess that he has something useful to say on the topic of choosing an ELR scope... 

 

 

 

 

Straight told ya early - you don't need all that magnification...   I'm just sayin'...   

SFP scopes are not your answer - right now.  Don't get sucked into that mantra yet.  You need to shoot 1760 yards  - ONE Statute Mile.  You need to shoot 2000 yards - ONE Nautical Mile.  You need to shoot 2280 yards.  Those distances are what we've proven out here, already.  Once you can repeatably do that, with YOUR gun, Nate...   and we're going longer...  THAT is when you need to look at other stuff...

This is a different animal, completely.  There isn't any "build this all NOW, just like THIS answer" to any of this.  You need to get trigger time on these targets that are pretty fuqqin' far away, and see how you do, before you can build up a 6-thousand yard gun right off the bat.  That just doesn't happen.  All this shiit get's really Western, and weird as fuq, once you're beyond a mile.  

You're getting way too deep in the weeds, over something that might never be a reality, over research.  Run your gun - you have a great one for this, so run it.  Worry about all the other longer ranges, after you can run your gun to the ranges that we already have.  @Magwa found a Home Depot bucket at around 2750 yards out - didn't have enough dial to reach it, with the same gun you bought, Nate.  Now, @Magwa has a $1k mount, that dials, just because of that.  And right now, we don't even know if the cartridge and load will support such a shot, at that distance...   Not at 1390 feet of elevation, and the Density Altitude at the time that would support such a shot...

Run your Gun, Nate.  Put a scope on it, and run it, to what we've proved already. 

Just my $0.02.  

[Magwa]

9 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

Straight told ya early - you don't need all that magnification...   I'm just sayin'...   

SFP scopes are not your answer - right now.  Don't get sucked into that mantra yet.  You need to shoot 1760 yards  - ONE Statute Mile.  You need to shoot 2000 yards - ONE Nautical Mile.  You need to shoot 2280 yards.  Those distances are what we've proven out here, already.  Once you can repeatably do that, with YOUR gun, Nate...   and we're going longer...  THAT is when you need to look at other stuff...

This is a different animal, completely.  There isn't any "build this all NOW, just like THIS answer" to any of this.  You need to get trigger time on these targets that are pretty fuqqin' far away, and see how you do, before you can build up a 6-thousand yard gun right off the bat.  That just doesn't happen.  All this shiit get's really Western, and weird as fuq, once you're beyond a mile.  

You're getting way too deep in the weeds, over something that might never be a reality, over research.  Run your gun - you have a great one for this, so run it.  Worry about all the other longer ranges, after you can run your gun to the ranges that we already have.  @Magwa found a Home Depot bucket at around 2750 yards out - didn't have enough dial to reach it, with the same gun you bought, Nate.  Now, @Magwa has a $1k mount, that dials, just because of that.  And right now, we don't even know if the cartridge and load will support such a shot, at that distance...   Not at 1390 feet of elevation, and the Density Altitude at the time that would support such a shot...

Run your Gun, Nate.  Put a scope on it, and run it, to what we've proved already. 

Just my $0.02.  

That right there is the freeking truth ,I have shot stuff all my life I am really good at finding and killing stuff that is just me , but that is a different thing than ELR but yet it is the same, the distance is just farther I am a hunter and I approach ELR with that mindset I hunt targets, I see and have the equipment to make the shot then i do it. So making the mile and other shots did not surprise me but was a result of the work done to prepare to make that shot, gun ,scope, reloading components,understanding the air, wind, and where my target was....but after the 2280 and the bucket I knew my equipment was not up to snuff and I would need to learn more and get more to get as far as I can.. Go shoot that bitch at all the targets up to where you start to see limits coming then tackle the next phase but don't try and eat the Elephant before you kill it....

[BigNate]

Thanks gents…

@98Z5V - @Magwa - forgive all the rambling -  I live in the weeds… I’m an analyst by nature and I dive into stuff like this… over-thinking / over-analyzing stuff is my jam… LOL  You should see the new spreadsheet - there’s a bunch more columns - and weighted stack ranking… 😛

I’ve added the Zeiss LRP S3 4-25X50 to the scope list…  primarily because it offers 46.5 MIL / 160MOA of vertical adjustment.  I’ve weighted up total elevation, depth of field, and some other stuff - and that has me I’m leaning that direction…   I agree that getting on steel at a mile is the short term goal… well… finding a load that the gun likes is goal #1 - then getting on steel at a mile… 

https://www.zeiss.com/consumer-products/us/precision-shooting/first-focal-plane-riflescopes/lrp-s3/lrp-s3-425-50.html

Looking at rigid mounts and/or rings now… but probably holding off on buying something that until I have the scope ordered. 

Edited 5 hours ago by BigNate