seasprite

What happened to your chrony? I know mine acts up sometimes but its mainly clouds & sun angle that play havoc on mine. The last time out I was only able to get one good string before a partly cloudy sky made it start reading shots when no one was shooting. I think it was reading the shadow from the clouds as they passed by. My understanding is for conditions you want either solid overcast or clear skies with a fairly high sun angle.

<thumbsup> Can't wait to start seeing more of your load development.

I have to agree with you survivalshop seems like like I'm right on the edge with this load. I have Hodgdon's 2012 reloading magazine and the article they have in there doesn't mention anything about temp. sensitivity. I haven't seen anything else published about this powder maybe your article will be more in depth than what I've read. I did go over my load notes and here is what I came up with. 6/6/12 temp 85* avg vel. 2642 6/30/12 temp 100* avg vel. 2655 7/11/12 temp 95* avg vel 2663 When I look at all the velocity data the 95* and 100* are pretty much the same but there is a definite difference between 85* and 95*. I'm hoping that my seating depth change is going to keep me on the safe side of things it looks like I should get about 30fps reduction by going this route. Last time I was at the range out of 20 cases this is what I found checking for pressure 5 of them showed some cratering of the primer. 3 showed signs of the bolt and extractor trying to remove the spent case with to much pressure still in the chamber (bent rims) and the rest looked normal.

Thanks NoFail, I liked that group a lot. Didn't have a spotting scope so I had no idea how I was doing I could make out what looked like a couple of holes. knew I was hitting high because I forgot to readjust the scope after shooting some PPU 175gr factory loads. Did you locate some brass yet? Plan on picking up some more A-max bullets this week along with another pound of powder so I can get back to reloading. Decided not to pull the other 40 rounds that I have made up with my 2.790 seating depth I'm just going to save them for the winter and try them on a cold day and see if my pressure signs go away. When I started doing this load work up the highs for the day were around 60* so I'm wondering what they would be like on a 30* day. Know what there like on a 90*+ day HOT.

I just got done looking at my brass along with reviewing my chronograph data and I'm going to have to make a change some of my brass shows pressure signs and some don't along with the Temps:95* we had here today I'm going to say that this powder is temp sensitive. I'm going to switch my seating depth from 2.790 to 2.815 along with dropping my powder charge from 48.0 to 47.9 I know it doesn't seem like much on the powder charge but I'm hoping get most of my reduction in pressure in the seating depth and still stay in my accuracy node. If this doesn't work I'll have to develop the 47.1gr of powder.

I made it out to my brothers range today had some fun at the 200 yard range and managed to get 1 set of chronograph numbers before the clouds started causing havoc with the chrony. These are the only good numbers I was able to pull today so here they are. 168gr A-Max 48gr CFE 223 PPU brass (weight 171.1gr - 171.7gr) CCI 200 primers 1.2682 2.2671 AVG 2668 3.2671 ES 25 4.2663 SD 9 ;) 5.2657 I found 2 of the 5 rounds that had loose primer pockets, I'll let you guess how I found them >:(. I have 3 more to find and cull out of my brass I know what box there in just not which cartridge in the 20 rounds that are in there. So here's a question for you guy's is there a way to tell if the primer pockets are stretched out before you try to seat a primer <dontknow>? Here's today's targets I had a couple of called fliers today so I didn't included them in my groups and having to clear a couple of primers out of the action didn't help matters any either.

One thing I haven't reported on yet with this powder is its claim to reduce cooper fouling well I cleaned my rifle last night in preparation for Wed. when I hope to try my load at 200 yards. When I clean my barrel I usually wrap a patch around the bore brush dip it in Hoppes #9 then push it through the bore and let it soak while I clean the rest of the rifle. I've been running some PPU factory ammo through for my fouling shots before I would start my test loads with CFE 223 and this what I have found so far. When I push my brush and patch through with solvent through I get some blue on the patch this is first patch through to start the soak time. Then after I'm done cleaning the bolt & carrier and every thing else I'll push a patch through the bore with a jag soaked in solvent to act as a rinsing stage of my cleaning which some more blue came out on the patch then after that I push dry patches through until clean. I don't know about you guy's but I've never had Hoppes remove copper from any of my rifles when cleaning so I can only conclude for my self that the CFE 223 holds the copper in suspension or forms some kind of barrier to keep it from sticking to the rifling so in my opinion it works. The carbon appears to be fluffy in nature and blacker than other powders that I have used and only takes a few patches to come clean. I think this powder might of found a permanent space on my shelf with the velocities it delivers and easy clean up.

Wow I'm really surprised by the es & sd numbers from the Armsco bullets the 55 FMJ, CCI , 24 gr. , 2.238" COL looked the best on the numbers. Are you going to try to develop that load to see if you can get tighter groups or is about the best its going to do from your rifle?

Dry fire is your freind <thumbsup>

For those of you who want to try this method of development try to keep in mind your going look for the same point of impact across 2 or 3 charge weights and pick a charge weight right in the middle of those. Its not group size that comes later with the seating depth test right now your just trying to find the optimal powder charge weight for your set of components.

Your going to shoot only 1 round at a target at a given charge weight then when you have gone through your first set of rounds you go back to your first target and start again 1 round per target and so on until you have used all 3 test rounds by the end of the test you should have right around 7 targets with with a 3 round group on each of the targets. Be sure to mark your targets with your charge weight so you don't get them mixed up if your target backer is not big enough to put up all targets at once plus for later review when we try to pick your OCW. Another thing that I would do is load a dummy round first in the mag then the test round. This will allow the gun to fully cycle with out the bolt locking back after the last test round thats loaded in the mag. As survivalshop said consistency is the key to reloading.

98Z5V has part of the answer with finding your max loading quicker the other parts are your going to spread barrel heating across all groups along with barrel fouling and conditions of the day as the day heats up this will also be spread across all groups.

You can't steal whats not mine far as I know Dan Newberry came up with method C:-).

Sorry to hear of your bad day NoFail, I've got 5 pieces of brass that have loose primer pockets but like you it was to late to do anything about it. I think these were the ones that I had high pressure on when I did my seating test since there was only 5. They felt to easy going in but I loaded them anyway because I have no way to decap them unless I send them through the sizing die again and I don't want to over work the brass. I've lost some primers when I was using the Winchester brand and found out that they run smaller than other brands and seated loose in once fired brass so I switched to CCI and haven't had a problem since except for the 5 high pressure ones. So this has me thinking if your brass is not showing signs of case head separation you might try Wolf or Tula primer to get another loading or 2 out of them but you have to be sure your brass is not fatigued. By checking with a paper clip you feel inside of the case for signs that your brass is at the end of its life usually a groove where the case body and web meet. If you feel a groove anywhere inside scrap it. As far as starting over how far back? If your going to start with your powder charges again try this and see if it works for you. Hodgkin's list CFE 223 starting at 46.6gr and max at 49gr for the 168gr bullet(you'll never get to the max) Load 3 at 46.6 then 3 at 46.9, 3@47.2, 3@47.5 and so on up to 49gr. As far as seating depth goes load them all at 2.815" this way when you do your seating depth test you'll be as long as the mags will let you and the only thing left is to go deeper but thats later back to the task at hand and that finding your optimal powder charge. When you go back to the range shoot a couple of foulers and sighters you can make up some extra rounds at the beginning charge weight for this. Then you can either do the round robin method or 3 shot groups I did the 3 shot groups method due to the way our range is ran. The round robin is you take 1 shot at with 46.6gr load at one target then you go on to another target and shoot 46.9 and so on while looking for signs of pressure and you will hit pressure before get to the 49gr loads but its best to make up the whole load range and then pull later. By the time your done you will have around 7 targets with 3 shot groups on them. After that post pics of your targets and we'll see where your OCW is. If this is clear as mud let me know and I try to explain it better.

Thanks unforgiven, This site and the people on here have been fantastic in helping me develop this load no one has been rude or disrespectful just a blessing thanks 308AR.com seasprite

Hey thats pretty cool NoFail, only one thing is my sight height is 2.5" <thumbsup> Thats gota be nice to have all that info from your chrony to go with your load notes. I've just got an old ProChrono Plus that a friend gave to me. I had to make up some sky screens and supports for it, then I made a remote control out of an bicycle grip, momentary switch and speaker wire. As far as your neck tension goes make a dummy round record your C.O.A.L. then feed it from the mag by hitting the bolt release then extract the round and measure again to if there is any change.

For neck tension there is a couple ways to do it. 1 is take your calipers and measure the neck diameter then measure the brass thickness at the neck multiply by 2 then minus that number from your neck diameter.Then measure your bullet dia. which the A-max measures at .308 and minus that from your first answer. here's mine for an ex: (.015brass thickness x2=.30) neck dia. .335-.30=.305 (.308 bullet dia.-.305=.003) or you can stick your inside measuring jaws on your calliper in the case neck and get it that way but the first method probably more accurate. Mine at first was only .001 which is fine for a bolt gun but I was having trouble with the bullets sliding forward when the bolt would slam home so to make it tighter I just chucked the expander ball in a drill and took some 400 grit sand paper to it. If your bullets are holding firm I wouldn't worry about it but the amount of neck tension can effect accuracy. As far as your BC's go post it and lets see <thumbsup>

Since my supplies are low I decided to just load what I have left for my new load and forgo the 47.1gr test until I get some powder and bullets. I now have 60 rounds of my new load, the good news is that I'm on vacation next week along with my brother and he has access to a 200 yard range and were going to go and stretch this load out a little bit and see how does. Went to Horndy web site last night and used there ballistics calculator and here is the results. Range Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 Fps 2650 2474 2305 2142 1986 1837 1696 1564 1442 1331 ftlb 2620 2283 1981 1711 1471 1259 1073 912 775 661 Traj. -2.5 0 -3.2 -12.9 -30.2 -56.3 -92.8 -141.4 -204.3 -284.1

Happy Independence Day guy's even with our problems we still live in the best country in the world <thumbsup> NoFail, If you want to try this you can reduce your charge weight by 0.1gr-0.2gr and you should still have good groupings with a little less pressure. The reason I say this is if I found a true OCW the charge weights should be good across many different firearms same as Federals Gold Metal match. The only problem I see is the different brass were using but your results are showing to be pretty close to mine. Check out this site: optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com You probably know this already but for safety sake I feel its worth mentioning. When you test your loads start with 2.815 and work your way down looking for pressure after each group. I don't want to insult your intelligence or anything its just this is a new powder with not much info out there yet. :happydrunks: Were kinda blazing the way for other people see with this powder.

Like what survivalshop said in your thread there is alot variables in play when you build these rounds by hand. One thing I haven't done till now was sort my cases by weight so thats one more variable that I'm trying to take out of equation. I bet the next time I go to the range my sd & es will be lower, by how much who knows but thats the fun about hand loading changing one thing at a time to see if works or not.

This why I feel he should try some different seating depths so he can find the timing for his barrel odds are its going to different than mine. And yea thats one sweet looking die <thumbsup> Oh by the way my barrel is an DPMS 7.62 NATO chamber with 1:10 twist can't remember the type of rifling it has probably button but don't quote me on that ;)

I think you should try the seating depth change you might be surprised at how your groups come together. If your uncomfortable going below 2.800" then don't, but you should try 2.805,2.810 and 2.815 and see if you find a sweet spot for that barrel. What was your current test depth I'm thinking you said 2.800" but I can't remember.

I decided on my load but after looking at NoFail's data I'm going to do a seating depth test and chronograph the 47.1gr charge weight to see if my results are similar to his. If my velocities es & sd look good I may switch loads so here's my current load as it stands now. 168gr A-Max 48gr CFE 223 CCI 200 LR primers PPU brass trimmed to 2.005" neck tension .003 COAL 2.790" Crimp .335" I processed 160 pieces twice fired brass yesterday and today so far I weighed them out and divided them in to 20 piece lots with one lot only having a .3gr deference but most fall in a .5gr deference per 20. I know I didn't have to take it that tight but figured what the heck can't hurt. Since I was in the weighing mood I decided to weigh my primers :cookoo: to see how much of a deference there was & found a range of 5.0gr to 5.3gr with the majority weighing in at 5.2gr. Could this be just a deference in cup & anvil thickness or the priming compound? Does it make deference in the loads who knows? So I loaded up 20 with my weighed cases and weighed primers. I'll probably wait until I check the seating depth test for 47.1gr of powder before testing this starting run low on components so I'm going to have to restock before to long.

Very nice report nofail <thumbsup> I just figured out my load for the cfe 223 and the 168 Amax but after seeing your numbers for the 47.1gr I'm wondering if I should developed that charge weight and run it across the crony I only did the 47.9-48gr across once I found my OCW for this combo that I'm running. I had an accuracy node come in at 47.1gr and then again at 48gr would you say yours is the same or different? Once you pick a charge weight are you going to very seating depth? My accuracy nodes came in at 2.815"and then again at 2.790" at 2.785" I had high pressure signs so keep this in mind when test for seating depth. To find out how long I could seat them out I pushed the mag follower down and measured the internal length then took .003-.005 off of that for feeding reliability. Can't wait to see your next report noFail good luck.

Well I went and braved the heat yesterday to retest my seating depth after readjusting my sizing die for the shoulder problem I had and I can say now that setting the shoulder back didn't seem to have an effect on my loads but for safety sake I felt I had to retest all my work to make sure there was no change. I did take the chronograph yesterday and came back with some interesting results I'm only going to post my Avg, es, sd for most of my groups I shot over 35 rounds yesterday and that would be to much to enter on here except for a couple that I had interesting results with. 2.815" 1:2629 2: n/a 3: n/a 4: n/a 5:2620 2.810" AVG 2648 ES25 SD11 2.805" AVG 2647 ES23 SD10 2.800" AVG 2652 ES35 SD16 2.795" AVG 2655 ES17 SD7 2.790" 1:2663 ES 27 2:2665 SD 12 3:2648 AVG 2655 4:2638 5:2665 2.785" TO DEEP HIGH PRESURE avg2666 es46 sd14 The 2.790" really got me to wounder why I had 3 rounds less than 2fps apart so I decided to weigh my cases for that string to see if that might be the answer and here is what I found. PPU once fired brass 1:176.4gr 2:176.4gr 3:176.5gr 4:176.6gr 5:178.8gr So I guess my next step to reduce my es & sd #'s will be to weigh the cases might try +- .5gr for a 1gr spread after that I thought about trying uniforming the primer pocket and flash hole. Have you guy's done this and what were your results?