BigNate

Thanks @98Z5V and @Magwa... I'm still looking at stuff... made it through the weekend without buying anything. I've gotten good pricing from an on-line FFL buddy (I've bought some smaller stuff through him and he's been selling into the other group for years). Still trying to make a choice. I'm trying to find a Kahles to put my eye on just to see if I can talk myself into it. It sounds like the Zeiss is the sweet spot... we'll see what I find a deal on first... I'm pretty convinced that if I do OK on the buy of the Razor or ATACR I can sell them if I don't like them - without taking too much of a bath. I'm also stalling a bit because I've got an out of state buddy who's a bit of a gun whore constantly buys and sells stuff (federal law enforcement guy) - I know he had an ATACR that he was talking about selling. If its the 7-35 or 5-25 I'll probably try to buy it from him. I can likely get it at a price that would let me break even when reselling it if I decide I want something different. Regarding the focus on maximizing internal adjustment - while I get that "more is better" regarding internal adjustment - I'm also looking at it from the perspective of it being a purpose built gun - so I can always add permanent adjustment with the mount. I'm a bit of a data nerd - and have been spreadsheeting stuff. I attached the spreadsheet in case anyone wants to dig in and tell me where I've gone wrong... The first tab is the list of stuff I've considered and a bunch of data I've pulled for each of them. The 2nd tab (BallisticsTrajectory JBM) has a copy of the output of a ballistics trajectory chart that I produced for the Berger 300gr OTMs going 2750 at the muzzle and zeroed at 200Y. So - you can populate U2 with the native rail compensation of the gun (20MOA for the Savage Elite Precision), W2 with additional MOA from the mounting system. Based on these - and the data from The BallisticsTrajectory JBM tab - Column S will populate with maximum yardage available for each scope. You can mess with it further by adding holdover MIL in X2 which will bump that yardage accordingly. I did go back and add another "base MOA adjustment" that could be a perm addition to consoldate adjustment for zeroing. Anyway - The difference from worst to first, as I see it, is not a huge factor. As you say above - mount it such that the scope is effectivly bottomed out and go from there. Even The gun has 20MOA built into the rail, and I'll assume that I'll get a 20MOA or greater rigid mount. So using those numbers - and ballistics for the speculative load - if I look at the 5 that I'm seriously considering (marked in blue) - the worst of them is the ATACR 7-35 that should bottom out at about 2389 yards and the best of them is the Razor HD Gen III at 2499. If I dial at 500 it bumps these numbers by about 75 yards. To get to 3000Y with the ATACR I'd need about 75MOA more than that in the mount... and to get there with the Razor, only 52 more from the mount. Now I've got to look at these https://heritage-arms.com/product-category/gun-parts/cold-shot-llc-adjustable-scope-bases/ Please do poke holes in my thinking... ELR Optics.xlsx

There's a couple that get carried based on situation... I've got an ancient but trusted G30 (subcompact double-stack .45ACP) that lives in the truck in a fanny-pack and makes me look like Epic Beard Man (if you know - you know - if you don't know - go look up the video). This goes everywhere with me. The other is a Walther PDP fullsize 4.5" with RDS that lives in an IWB holster from We Plead the 2nd (or whatever they are called these days).

Thanks much Matt. Thanks for the precision shooting blog link as well... I've added the Zeiss and Magwa's Razor to the list... as well as some others. I had started eliminating stuff that had 30mm tubes - totally in agreement with the 34mm+ tube. I'm still totally in bench-racing mode with this stuff - but I had assumed that I'd probably zero this at 500 yards if possible. I mentioned above that the reason I'm looking at the very large magnification scopes is aligned with what you state above - being able to work in the middle (or at least not at the very end) of the range... As to the objective lens "56 is gimmick" - I've heard the same thing - and I interpret that as being true to a degree - or in some circumstances... In other words - my read is that it's not a "gimmick" - but what you get out of it is not generally necessary for most shooters doing most things. I see it in the same was as the 34mm tube - that "more light is better" but for most people in most situations who are shooting targets or deer at 300 yards they'll never see the difference... but when shooting targets at 2500+ yards having just that little bit more might be the thing that lets you spot your splash on a miss - so for lots of folks, extra $ for the larger lens is wasted - but if you're doing things where the extra 3% of light (or clarity, or... ) matters - it isn't. Maybe I'm thinking about it wrong - but it's how I'm thinking about it..

Thanks sir... I expect I'll get some sort of "tree" reticle... I'm still very much learning what works for me in that space - and I don't have a strong preference other than the open center, FFP, and a "tree" of some sort. How far out have you shot that at 16-18? I am in "buy once cry once" mode relative to ELR... I'm guessing I've got real work to do before I'm shooting out past a mile - but I absolutely daydream about shooting out at 3560 and don't want to wish I had more if I ever get to the place where that's not total pipe-dream...

Thanks sir... Yeah - I have ZERO clue what I was looking at when I came up with 15 MILs as my adjustment need. I had plugged in ballpark data for the 300gr Berger Hybrid OTM at 2750 into the the ballistics app that I use - and went out to 2900Y - and grabbed a number... I just did it again - and the best I can guess is I was thinking about 1780 and grabbed the number for one mile instead of 2900... or at least that's the only explanation that I've got for that... Part of the reason for looking at the much bigger magnification is that I don't expect that I'll ever use this gun or optic for anything short of 1000Y other than load development - and like Matt says below - image quality deteriorates (a bit at least) when you get to the end of the optic's magnification range - so I'd rather be at 24X on a 6-36X than on a 4-24X (or at least I THINK I would...). The other biggie for me in that space is that in my experience the eye-box shrinks when you get to the end of the range. I understand (or think I understand) that the more I spend, the less this applies as well - if that's not true - please chime in - because that is something I worry about. I'm not in a place where I can just go pick up a $6800 Tangent Theta to try it out... but I am in a place where I can save for a few months and go from a $2000 scope to a $4000 scope IF the difference is something that actually matters to me and helps me. I just watched this video and found it useful - although it's pretty focused on stuff at the top of the range... It did really get me thinking about the Kahles - primarily because my old eyes are increasingly light dependent (I have a really hard time reading restaurant menu's in dim light - but if I grab the phone flashlight and put light on the text it is much better)... I know it's not a 1:1 comparison - but their findings regarding field of view and "brightness" for the Kahles - really has me considering whether I should save for it.

As I mentioned in a couple of other places - my envy of @Magwa's "next zip code" rifle got me to plunk down some dollars and the Savage 110 Elite Precision in .338LM will be here next week. I'm starting to shop for my first genuinely high quality optic. The use will be essentially exclusive to distances at or past 1000Y. I have until October to buy it - so if the right answer is to slap a spare Arken SH4 6-24 on it for load development shooting, while I save my pennies for a Schmidt & Bender mortgage replacement - I can do that... On the other hand - I'm a value shopper - I'm absolutely willing to spend more money for more performance (particularly if it's performance I can use) - but I don't want to spend money for a name. There's a reason that the .338 is the ~$2K savage, not an AI AXMC or Barret MRAD... Those are both fantastic guns - but neither will give me more value than the Savage which is 1/3 - 1/5th their price). So - I did a bit of digging and started building a list. Initial criteria follow - but NOTHING is set in stone... this is a brave new world for me - and I'm looking for guidance. Anyway - assumptions are: 1) FFP 2) No less than 24x magnification and more likely will end up 30X+ unless someone can convince me that I won't want more if / when I try to get to the next level after earning my 2200' of bust coozie... 3) MIL units - I've been really working to learn to "think" in those terms - so... Oh - and at least 15milrad of adjustment. There are a bunch of other things that I'm "pretty sure" about ("HD" glass, etc.) but I'm sure that I'll get pointed in the right direction without sharing them with you. So - digging around a bit I built a list that I think covers the range in which I'm looking. I'd need to be convinced to buy something on either end of the range (convinced that the really expensive stuff is worth it - and convinced that the more inexpensive stuff won't leave me wishing I'd spent more). This is in no way a final list - it's just what I've come up with as a starting point to start the research (it was based on a few "ELR Scope" and I removed some stuff that I knew I didn't want). If I were buying something based on reputation and a guess alone - I'd be looking for a used ATACR from a trusted source... but I have some time - and friends to consult... So... let the educatin' begin. Brand Model Kahles K540i Kahles K328i Kahles K525i 5-25x56 FFP Nightforce ATACR 7-35x56 Steiner M7Xi 4-28x56 Vortex Razor HD Gen III 6-36x56 Leupold Mark 5HD 7-35x56 Tract TORIC UHD 4.5-30X56 34mm MRAD ELR FFP Rifle Scope Athlon CRONUS BTR GEN2 UHD 4.5-29×56 APRS6 Athlon ARES ETR GEN2 UHD 4.5-30×56 Athlon Ares BTR Gen 2 4.5-27x50 Arken EP5 G2 7-35X56

Here's the problem. Businesses who do business in America have learned how the American legal system works. In many cases, the seething mass of liars (lawyers) in this country see to it that the financial punishment a company receives, even for an honest mistake, is so horrific, that the mathematically smart thing to do is to deny, obstruct, lie, hide, and generally avoid responsibility. The Mrs. and I had a recent experience in this space. After 25+ years the old faithful Maytag washer gave up the ghost - and the Mrs. said something like: "you know how I know we've made it?... we can afford to buy an absurdly priced / featured front loading, high efficiency, washer and dryer set..." I said: "yes dear..." and later that day we came home with nearly $3000 worth of appliances from LG. This was a seriously fancy setup... every bell and whistle... Well - the washer never really washed very well given the Obama EPA limits on how much water it can use - and about 8-9 months after buying them, I walk into the house through the laundry room, and my super-shiny spaceship of a dryer is... well... GONE! It took a minute for me to locate it - in the back yard. My teen-age son had unplugged it and drug it out there when it caught fire. We call LG warranty / support and let them know what happened. Their tone seemed a bit weird - but the "we'll send a technician out" response had us hopeful. The guy shows up, pulls the back panel off, and the whole interior (outside the drum) is filled with charred lint. He announces that he'll send in a report and get back to us. A couple of days later we received certified mail from LG - advising us that they had denied our warranty claim because the fire was the result of "operator error" - we must not have cleaned the lint trap per the "every load" instructions. The Mrs. turns all kinds of pretty colors, starts using just as colorful a set of language, and says something to the effect of: "I couldn't swear on a stack of bibles that I've cleaned it 'Every load' - but I bet I've cleaned it 99% of the time - the same way that I have cleaned the lint screen in the dryers I've been using for the last 40 years - none of which ever burst into flames." Long story short - LG was dug in on their position. We soon found out that they'd had a number of claims for fires that had resulted in hours fires, lost homes, injuries, etc. There was a class action suit out there - and I'm guessing that some day the liars (lawyers) running the class action suit will get $100,000,000, and each of us who had dryers burst into flames will get $20.00. The legal chatter around it was that the "smart money" for LG as to deny, reject claims, and never admit fault or a design flaw - because doing so would exacerbate the future damage claims from folks injured or killed in fired caused by their faulty devices (not to mention the cost of recalling and repairing or replacing the many thousands of defective products). I'm a vengeful SOB... every time someone offers me an LG product I tell this story... "We've got an AWESOME deal on an LG OLED TV right now - much better value for dollar than that Sony you are looking at..." Me: "Let me tell you why I'll never spend another penny with LG..." My issue isn't that they had a design flaw - it's that they gave in to the liars (lawyers) and refused to own their issue. I love my Sig 226 and 229s... and my trusted factory carbine is a Sig 516 Patrol - which has never done me wrong. I'll almost certainly buy more 2nd hand 226/229 stuff - but until they get their liars (lawyers) in check and simply own the issue instead of the lie, hide, and deny strategy - I won't be spending money on new stuff. FWIW - I blame the current state of our tort system just as much. It creates fertile ground for this sort of immoral response to a design flaw. Oh - and we sold the LG washer - and bought a plain old used Maytag washer / dryer set - that runs like a top...

No problem with my SIGs... 226 and 229 variants... although I don't spend a lot of time dropping them on the ground... maybe I should? 😛

I like it... the original 6mm burner...

I'm not surprised... and surprised... I'm not surprised that they were / are doing it... I am surprised that they weren't smart / corrupt enough to purge the proof of their actions in the same way that I'm guessing they have done in many other areas. It won't change unless folks go to prison. The warrantless surveillance of American citizens by the American government is illegal - and the bureaucrats doing so need to be in prison.

Certainly true if the D party keeps going the way it's going - when they manage to get back into power. That said - if they actually change internal policy (which I hope they will) it's definitely a good thing... and if it has the effect of shifting the public norms towards support for 2A over the next few years that provides political incentive for congress to get off it's ass and amend law. There are still red-state rural democrats out there that would like to support pro 2A legislation but who don't because their caucus is so rabidly opposed. If their constituencies put enough pressure on them, and the GOP grows a pair, we could see real legislative change... Fingers crossed...

Most of the LEO folks that I know are "gun guys" and take proficiency in that area very seriously... that said... it sure isn't totally uniform. I had an old neighbor (now departed) who was a retired New Jersey State Trooper. I went shooting with him ONCE. I love the man (seriously - excellent guy)... but I didn't love shooting with him. It was pretty amazing how uncertain he was about his equipment and how little muzzle discipline he had.

Cheap Chinese borescope... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07TTQF24F?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title We'll see how it works...

Thanks sir...

Thanks... I'm absolutely with you on the "don't Complicate Shiit with Complicated Shiit" on guns that are meant as defensive use tools. Not sure if you've heard me babble on that topic - but the stuff I carry or leave ready for SHTF use tends to be high quality factory stuff left mechanically untouched. When it comes to reliability / durability, I trust the hundreds of thousands of rounds of testing that DD or Sig or Colt put their stuff through more than I something that I pieced together. That said - right now I'm fascinated with how quiet I can make this thing... and a bunch of the fun in it is the "holy hell - the sound of the bullet impact is louder than the gun!" So - "race gun" - no... "big goofy grin on my face suppressed subsonic range toy" - yup... 😛 Thanks for the advice on lubing the buffer and spring. I'm a product of military training during a window where all the prep was for combat in dry, dusty, sandy theaters, which I'm convinced is why there was so much emphasis on keeping our guns dry. I've changed how wet I keep the bolt/carrier/etc. - but never started lubing the buffer. I'll see how that helps first...

Dragging an old thread back to the top of the list... sorry... Help me with "they sound stupid" - can I read that as "stupid quiet"? I'm developing an unhealthy obsession with taking sound out of my gun - and given that when shooting it suppressed the thing that sounds "loud" is the spring in the tube - that's the next target... 🙂 I was looking at the JP system - but totally happy to spend less if it works just as well (FWIW - neither would stay in the gun if they reduce reliability of function)... (waits patiently to be nut-punched by Tom)... 😛

Video from shooting yesterday. 300gr subs through the Omega 36M Buddy Shooting the 8.6

Thanks gents... changing my "lean"... The more I read the more I'm leaning towards the 300WM but we'll see - maybe 7PRC needs a closer look.

I'm going down the path of building a bolt gun to allow me to come out and play a bit more on the ELR range days and am looking into buying / building a "budget" rifle for that purpose. I'm looking for advice on cartridge selection. When I say "budget" - I'm thinking about the total cost of shooting the gun over time. I look at what @Magwa did and I like it - but the $6 (ish) per round load cost scares me. I found the following link (it's a few years old - but I think it's largely still appropriate reference) - and it, and others, seem to tell me that with the right loads and gun I can get out to 2000Y with a 6.5PRC. I was surprised to see this - as I had sort of assumed that I'd need to be at least 7mm PRC to play at that range - but this but would like feedback on cartridge selection. https://precisionrifleblog.com/2020/08/27/best-rifle-elr-caliber-cartridge/ Right now I'm leaning towards 6.5 PRC as something that I can use across the spectrum, that is relatively cost effective for reloading. I've also though about 7 PRC or 300 PRC. I'm probably going to avoid 300 Norma, 338 Lapua or some of the other hotter / bigger primarily because of the significantly higher cost of reloading. The one outlier in that space would be .300WM as I have about 1000 pieces of once fired brass (as well as dies etc.) that I can work against reducing the ramp up cost - but I'm not sure that this provides enough cost relief to overcome the other negatives of using that cartridge. One other thought is 6.8 Western which would let me use the Rem700SA stuff that I had started accumulating a while ago - while allowing slightly heavier bullets at higher velocities than the 6.5PRC - although I think I'd be pretty lonely in working in that cartridge. Another thought would be 7-6.5PRCW (wildcatted 6.5PRC necked up to 7mm - still SA, lower recoil than 7PRC but with the .284 bullets). I'd like to keep my cost per round (to load) at or below $2 if possible. I think this is viable with 6.5PRC (I can buy factory match 6.5PRC at $1.65/rnd - in bulk - shipped plus tax - and load from there). Anyway... Just thinking out loud and looking for input / thoughts. TIA

I've gotten myself on a bit of a Primus kick recently.

The ultimate troll of the deep state... I wonder how many machine guns could be "produced" in a 90 day window...

That’s true - although I can tell you that some of the stuff that I heard from her a few years ago was pretty Marxist. My read on her is that she’s intellectually honest - and when she realizes she’s wrong - that characteristic is stronger than her pride - so she adjusts, instead of defending the old position. Watching her do this on 2A stuff has been really cool. As she came to realize how authoritarian her party was, she came to understand the importance of the 2A, and she changed her position. It was cool to watch. I still disagree with some of her positions - but I genuinely respect her (and did when she still had a D behind her name as well).

Looks like a weekend full of win! Congrats @Magwa & @JBMatt

My first grandchild arrived in August... I bought the first gun for her in June... There's a Henry Lever Action Youth 22 LR in the safe waiting for her to grow into it... I can't wait...

This picture showed up in a different forum and my GUESS is that the person bought a DPMS style lower and Armalite style upper and decided to just "make it work..." It led to a few questions... First - not saying I would do this... In fact - I wouldn't... I'd sell one part or the other and buy one that matches. However - if we pretend that we are living in "Book of Eli" times and I stumble on the two parts - CAN I make it work? 1) If you remove the interference material in that area will takedown pins line up? Will the hammer to pin geometry work? 2) Would it not be better to remove material from the back of the upper than it would be to remove material from the lower?