Palmetto PA-10 failure to eject

[shooterrex]

Do you want little pieces of metal in the chamber, barrel, and action. What are those badly wearing lugs doing to the locking lugs of the barrel extension?

[W.E.G.]

24 minutes ago, shooterrex said:

Do you want little pieces of metal in the chamber, barrel, and action. What are those badly wearing lugs doing to the locking lugs of the barrel extension?

Or conversely, what are the locking lugs of the barrel extension doing to the bolt?

We can be sure the bolt and the barrel are nothing special.

I don't think anyone would dispute that the wear-rate on this bolt is highly accelerated. That said, the chamber will just accept a 1.633" headspace gage. It refuses a 1.634" gage. So, headspace has grown 0.002" since everything was brand new. That's highly accelerated growth of headspace for sure. I will be keeping an eye on that. If headspace continues to grow, I will take measurements using two other bolts, and determine whether the growth is accountable to just the Palmetto bolt, or a combination of the bolt and other factors (biggest factor being probably the barrel extension).

If superficial damage from small bits of metal floating around is the primary concern, I acknowledge that circumstance, but don't assign a lot of weight to that concern. Theoretically, some small bit of metal could get between the bullet and the bore, causing some sort of scratch within the bore.  I tend to doubt that such scratch would show up in accuracy perfomance. I guess there's a chance that some foreign object could cause a "just-wrong" out-of-battery condition, and which would still allow primer-ignition. Those events do happen. Probably just as likely to have an ammunition case-head rupture. Either variety is always "exciting" on the firing line. I do wear eye protection.

Albeit probably a minority viewpoint, I regard this sort of rifle as a consumable item. The bolt and barrel especially.

If the bolt breaks to the point of being unserviceable, I have a spare bolt (Fulton Armory sourced) I can use. If the whole gun "breaks" (I'm not sure how that happens - but for the sake of discussion) I won't be distraught about it or even significantly inconvenienced. I like this gun, but I'm more enamored with several other more-accurate guns I shoot often. I can just move on from the Palmetto experiment if need be. If I get really motivated, I suppose I can install a much better barrel and a much better bolt. Which would make this a much better (and much more expensive) investment. For now, its as accurate as I need it to be, although less accurate than I want it to be.

I'm still having fun with it. Which is my point of having it in the first place. 

[W.E.G.]

As I look at the backside face of the bolt lugs (the area of the bolt-lug) that engages the corresponding lug on the barrel-extension, I wonder just how MUCH of that backside face of the bolt lug has physical contact with the correspondeing lug on the barrel extension.

I've got the gun all cleaned up and oiled for this weekend's outing. So, I don't want to do any experiments until after Sunday. But, when I clean it up after Sunday, I think I'll degrease the lugs on the bolt, and hit the back side of the bolt lugs with a dusting of spray paint. Then I'll assemble and drop it into battery and see how much spray paint gets wiped off the back side of the bolt lugs.

Its clear that one corner respectively of the backside of each of the bolt-lugs is getting "chiseled" off by the process of moving into and/or out of battery. It occurs to me that the more one side of each of the lugs gets chiseled, the more-narrow the engagement face (the engagment that has to contain the pressure of firing) diminishes. If this chiseling progresses, at some point there will be so little face on the bolt that something will have to yield.

It would be good to know how much engagement I actually have right now. I am of the belief that there is a "clocking" issue as to the engagment of the bolt already. I wil be concerned if I discover that those dwindling corners of the bolt are the only actual engagement. Judging from the smear-patterns of lubricant on the back of each bolt lug, I'm pretty sure I've got a whole lot more engagment than just those damaged corners of the lugs. Although, I am perplexed by the relative absence of wear of the black-oxide-or-whatever finish on the engagment surface of each lug.

If it holds together for about another 100 rounds, I will do the spray-paint thing and find out what I've got.

[W.E.G.]

Fired another 100 rounds today.

No malfunctions of any sort.

Here's what the bolt looks like after I wiped it off with a paper towel.

____

200 yards.

Prone. Sling-supported.

Single-feed each shot (rifle removed from the shoulder for each shot per NRA/CMP rules)

168 Sierra Match King with 41.5 grains IMR 4895

I'm mostly satisfied with this target. 
That 7 that leaked out at 5 o'clock hurt. But that's 100% the shooter and failure to follow-through on the shot.
The 10 o'clock shot is what happens when you don't get your head down on the gun properly. The shooter again.
Frankly all the low shots are simply poor execution (mostly follow-through).
If you look at 10 o'clock in the 10-ring, you can see one abnormally small hole doubled into a .30 caliber hole.
My buddy shooting 5.56 on the adjacent target could only find 19 of his shots.
We just found it. On my target.

So, I'm going with accuracy is still good. Not great. Not "X-ring."
Although 6 of the 20 shots fired were in fact X's.

[W.E.G.]

As promised, I painted the bolt lugs in order to test to see how much 
engagment of each lug-face was engaging with each barrel-extension face.

I am using a 1.631" headspace gage to provide ample backthrust to see how 
much paint wipes off when the bolt is sent into battery. Typically, .308 Winchester 
match-grade ammunition, and most milsurp 7.62 NATO measures 1.628".

Freshly painted:

Headspace gage used for test:

Pics of two sides of the bolt after re-assembling the bolt-carrier assembly 
with the bolt, and working the bolt a couple dozen cycles with the headspace 
gage in the chamber. Looks like all the (remaining) surface area of the 
backside of each bolt lug is getting good engagement with the lugs on the barrel extension. 
Clear evidence of a "chamfer" worn on the edge of each bolt
lug from friction with the respective lugs on the barrel extension.

 

[308kiwi]

Looking at the pics of your bolt I would suggest that the excessive wear on the back face of the bolt lugs is not being caused by the forward/chambering/locking of the bolt but more so on the unlock and extraction part of the cycle, there appears to be little to no wear on the front of the lugs which is were you would expect there to be wear if there was a timing issue between the bolt and the barrel extension.

So your focus should perhaps be on what is involved in timing the bolt on the unlock/primary extraction part of the rifles cycle. I would be looking seriously at the cam pin and the cam pin track in the carrier, the diameter of the cam pin vs the width, length and angles of the cam pin track in the carrier is what rotates the bolt by the correct degrees of rotation so that the bolt lugs clear the extension lugs, the length and angles of the cam pin track are critical to and what controls/times the bolt rotation as the carrier moves rearward. It appears that this is not happening correctly and the rear of the bolt lugs are being wiped past the extension lugs.

Sure the same can be said to the forward movement of the carrier and how these dimensions control the lock up rotation of the bolt but the forward and lock movement of the bolt are far less violent than the unlock and extraction part of the cycle.

 

 

 

 

[98Z5V]

1 hour ago, 308kiwi said:

Looking at the pics of your bolt I would suggest that the excessive wear on the back face of the bolt lugs is not being caused by the forward/chambering/locking of the bolt but more so on the unlock and extraction part of the cycle,

WEG, Most of this is going to come down to the gas system, and the recoil system.  Those two systems are what primarily control the entire (balanced) timing of the gun's operation.

[308kiwi]

28 minutes ago, 98Z5V said:

WEG, Most of this is going to come down to the gas system, and the recoil system.  Those two systems are what primarily control the entire (balanced) timing of the gun's operation.

Absolutely.

It would appear that the carrier is moving too fast to or past the end of the unlock portion of it's travel before the bolt is fully unlocked and the bolt lugs are simply pulling past the extension lugs, creating the wear you are seeing, taming down/reducing the gas impulse or retarding the carrier by adding weight/mass via spring or buffer would likely solve the issue. Assuming that all the specs of the carrier and cam pin are true and correct.

Edited August 5, 2019 by 308kiwi

[W.E.G.]

Thank you for these replies.

If I understand correctly, the consensus is that it is unlocking too soon.

I am currently running a 5.3 ounce buffer, DPMS LR-308 buffer spring, and OEM Palmetto non-adjustable gas block.

Any particular preference as to which to approach first? — gas block vs. buffer vs. spring? Why pursue one versus the other first?

I get it that there is also a possibility that the carrier could contribute. Not sure how to evaluate that feature.

FWIW, I already own an adjustable gas block with gas-tube already installed. I previously experimented with that device when I was still chasing the extraction issue, but removed it for the sake of limiting variables while the extraction  issue was still in play.

Edited August 5, 2019 by W.E.G.

[308kiwi]

5 hours ago, W.E.G. said:

If I understand correctly, the consensus is that it is unlocking too soon.

I am currently running a 5.3 ounce buffer, DPMS LR-308 buffer spring, and OEM Palmetto non-adjustable gas block.

Any particular preference as to which to approach first? — gas block vs. buffer vs. spring? Why pursue one versus the other first?

I get it that there is also a possibility that the carrier could contribute. Not sure how to evaluate that feature.

FWIW, I already own an adjustable gas block with gas-tube already installed. I previously experimented with that device when I was still chasing the extraction issue, but removed it for the sake of limiting variables while the extraction  issue was still in play.

First thing I would be considering is....is this a new issue??, ie has this started to happen since you fixed the extraction issue you mention or was this early unlock issue part of your extraction issue that is now sorted???

When you 'fixed' your extraction issue did you fix the cause or the symptom???   It is VERY important to differentiate between the two, I've seen this so many times, replacing part after part until the problem goes away and all you end up doing is masking the actual cause, sure it runs now but is it running correctly or has what you have done simply stacked enough 'rights' together to cover the one major 'wrong'

If you already have an adjustable gas block then to save buying more parts I'd give it a try, it is going to be difficult to evaluate any fix unless the wear you are getting is becoming noticeably more and more over a low round count.

I'm sure 98 will have the correct info as to your buffer weight and spring, he is well versed in the recoil systems for these rifles. 

[W.E.G.]

Prior to solving the extraction issue, I did not scrutize the wear on the bolt, as I was never able to fire enough rounds to consider wear-patterns or such.

I fired maybe 40 rounds (relentless malfunctions) before I started dissecting the rifle and replacing parts.

[308kiwi]

5 hours ago, W.E.G. said:

Prior to solving the extraction issue, I did not scrutize the wear on the bolt, as I was never able to fire enough rounds to consider wear-patterns or such.

I fired maybe 40 rounds (relentless malfunctions) before I started dissecting the rifle and replacing parts.

Yeah that makes it a tough call.

One thing at a time is the way here. Refit your adj gas block and tune it so the rifle functions and then start to monitor the wear, I think that's all you can do short of replacing the bolt with a new one and see if the wear issue is still there, you may have fixed the cause of the wear when you fixed the extraction issue but are only now aware of it.

[98Z5V]

Here are the pieces and specifics that we need to know, on the gas system and recoil system, in order to see if they're working "correctly."    In this, with numbers, anything can be figured out.

Gas system info that's needed:   Barrel length and gas system length (i.e., 18" barrel, midlength gas). gas port diameter, gas block journal size (this ultimately affects the proper gas port diameter), what is the gas tube protrusion into the upper receiver?  Pics help on this, because a proper-lengthed gas tube will end directly in the very center of the cam pin cutout in the upper receiver.

Recoil system info that's needed:  Internal depth of the receiver extension, measured from the top of the extension, until the tape bottoms out in the bottom of it.  Buffer length and weight (we have 5.3oz on the weight already - need length).  We know the recoil spring - DPMS LR-308 spring - but is it an actual DPMS part, real DPMS part? Rifle or carbine spring? What's the brand on that thing, if it's not a real DPMS part shipped from DPMS?  If you can, post the relaxed length of the spring, wire diameter, and coil count.  

If you can give me that information, I can tell you if your recoil system and gas system will work with each other, or fight each other. 

This thing was definitely trying to unlock early, as evidenced by the bolt lug issues you pictured above, earlier in the thread.  The heaviest wear was from bolt thrust, solely. If it were mine, I would sort the gas system and recoil system, make sure I was straight on them, and replace that bolt (not the BCG, just the bolt), because with the wear on those lugs, you will shear a lug sometime in the future. Maybe more than one.  Bolt lugs should never look like that, and that's the sign, right there, to get that thing out of the gun.  First though, is figuring out why it went like that.

If you changed any parts in the gas system, or recoil system, over time - knowing that info will help, too.  When you changed what, what you changed it from and to, why, etc...  Details on previous parts will help, if parts were changed.  I'm positive that you have a PSA buffer hanging around somewhere, because they've never shipped a gun out of that factory with a 5.3oz buffer...

I know alot of this was probably already discussed in this thread, but having it all in one post is gonna streamline this process, and get to the bottom if it much quicker... 

[W.E.G.]

Rifle was never fired in exact original factory configuration.

Never was fired with Palmetto buffer spring or Palmetto buffer or Palmetto buffer tube.

 

To best of my recollection, this is the history of modifications:

 

FIRST MODIFIED CONFIGURATION (Day 1 configuration):

1.Magpul UBR buttstock and UBR buffer tube.

2. Geissele National Match trigger

3. DPMS LR-308 buffer spring.

4. DPMS LR-308 carbine buffer.

 

Rifle would not extract/eject with first modified configuration.

Maybe 30 rounds fired in first modified configuration.

 

SECOND MODIFIED CONFIGURATION:

5. Replaced Palmetto bolt with Fulton Armory bolt (complete Fulton bolt assembly in Palmetto carrier, with Palmetto firing pin and Palmetto cam-pin

6. Replaced Palmetto gas tube with Fulton Armory gas tube.

7. Replaced DPMS LR-308 carbine buffer with KAK 5.3 ounce buffer

 

Second modified configuration extracted/ejected 100%.

 

THIRD MODIFIED CONFIGURATION:

8. Installed Seekins adjustable gas block to see if any noticeable reduction in recoil achieved. Fired about 20 rounds. Inconclusive results. Tried various settings on the gas block to see how rifle behaved. When adjustment was set to sufficient setting to reliably eject brass, I could not tell any appreciable difference in recoil on that setting as opposed to the when the setting was adjusted to wide-open. Because competition rules disallow adjustable gas blocks, I re-installed the Palmetto OEM (non-adjustable) gas block with the Fulton gas tube. The Palmetto-block/Fulton-tube configuration has been on the rifle for at least 90% of the usage of the rifle.

 

FOURTH MODIFIED CONFIGURATION:

9. Removed Fulton Armory bolt

10. Installed Fulton Armory extractor assembly (extractor, polymer insert, spring, O-ring) in Palmetto bolt. Testing showed that the Palmetto bolt operates fine (except for the accelerated-wear issue) with the Fulton extractor assembly.

 

----------

 

90% of firing of rifle has been done with these modifications:

A.    Magpul UBR buttstock and buffer tube

B.     Geissele National Match trigger

C.     KAK 5.3 ounce buffer

D.    DPMS carbine-length buffer spring

E.     Palmetto bolt with Fulton Armory extractor assembly

 

 

--------

 

Measurements/Specifications follow:

 

 

 

GAS TUBE PROTRUSION

Current depth of gas tube protrusion

(Fulton Armory tube)

 

Original depth of gas tube protrusion

(Palmetto OEM tube)

 

 

BUFFER SPRING

DPMS Buffer Spring LR-308 Carbine

From Midway USA Product #: 813595

Present relaxed spring length 11 15/32”

Spring-wire diameter 0.075’”

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1003344651?pid=813595

 

RECEIVER EXTENSION (A.K.A. “BUFFER TUBE”) DEPTH

Magpul UBR Generation 1

Depth: 7.00”

 

KAK BUFFER

Weight: 5.3

Overall length: 2.520”

https://www.kakindustry.com/lr308-carbine-buffer-heavy

 

GAS TUBE

Fulton Armory

Gas Tube, Rifle, FAR-308 AR

https://www.fulton-armory.com/gastuberifle-1.aspx

 

GAS BLOCK JOURNAL DIAMETER

Journal on barrel is 0.750”

 

GAS PORT DIAMETER

Gas port will accept a  3/32" (0.09375") drill bit with a very snug fit.

 

BARREL LENGTH

Barrel length is 20”

Edited August 8, 2019 by W.E.G.

[W.E.G.]

Gonna get some lunch, then head out to the Centreville IWLA to shoot their second-Thursday-of-the-month afternoon 100-yard highpower rifle match.

50 shots for record.

If I get there early, might get a few sighters before the match starts. Pretty sure I've got good enough 100-yard sight-dope that I should at least be inside the 9-ring if I do my part.

[jtallen83]

Going back to something mentioned by @308kiwi maybe measure the cam pin. Being a PSA part I would be curious. 

[W.E.G.]

6 hours ago, jtallen83 said:

Going back to something mentioned by @308kiwi maybe measure the cam pin. Being a PSA part I would be curious. 

[98Z5V]

That's normal cam pin wear.   I'll get into the other stuff in a few minutes, but you need to get that recoil spring outta there and put in a Sprinco Orange spring. It's specifically developed for the .308AR platform, running a 7.000" internal depth carbine receiver extension and a 2.500" long buffer (which is your setup).

Everything else looks good, the Fulton gas tube in there makes a differences, and it's "more correct" than that short gas tube it was shipped with.  Gas system, peding gas port diameter information - Check.  Looks good as you've pictured it. 

Recoil system - MagPul UBR with integrated receiver extension - MagPul never fucked that one up, 7.000" internal.  KAK 5.3oz buffer, at 2.500" length - that's good.  DPMS spring you listed, from the Midway ad:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1003344651?pid=813595

The only people I know of that paint the end of their springs is Sprinco.  You need to call Midway, and ask them if that part number they have is a Sprinco Orange spring, and they didn't label it as such.  If that's really the case, that's the perfect spring for your setup.  Best I can come up with, from that picture, is a coil-count of about 30.

I'll be back with gas port diameter information for a rifle-gas 20" .308AR barrel with a 0.750" gas block journal, and verification of a a Sprinco Orange spring dimensions.

 

[98Z5V]

My Sprinco Orange spring is 11.000" long, 28 coils, 0.073" wire diameter.  Call Midway about that, our numbers are close on these springs. 

A rifle-gas 20" barrel will have a gas-port to barrel-end distance (dwell time) of about 6.875".  For a 0.750" gas block journal diameter, you would need a gas port diameter of 0.093"~0.096" for proper function.  With a balanced recoil system - which it seems you have.  Your gas port diameter you measured is in that range, just at the bottom of it. 

[W.E.G.]

I count 28 coils on my spring. But the end isn't painted orange. I don't think usage has caused paint I may have failed to notice to wear-off. I'm sure I would have remembered if it had been painted originally. I honestly can't remember what packaging the spring came in. I ordered it at the same time I ordered the DPMS carbine buffer. I do remember the DPMS buffer from Midway was marked "DPMS" in packaging that had the familiar DPMS font.  Wish I could remember how the spring was packaged. I want to think the spring was packaged with a generic-looking label that may have simply had non-descript-font that identified it as DPMS LR-308 carbine buffer spring.

I was programmed to get both the DPMS spring and carbine buffer, because I had previously installed a UBR on a DPMS LR-308-T that started life from the factory (panic-buy right before Obama's first term) with an A2 butt and rifle-length gas system. About a year ago I converted that rifle to UBR, and read that the DPMS spring and buffer were the way to go when setting-up an LR-308 with a collapsible buttstock. Indeed, the two work great in that carbine-length gun. Probably would never have messed with the Palmetto 20" gun except for the NRA/CMP service rifle rule which allows you to compete in the service rifle class, with an "M-110" type rifle, provided that the rifle meets certain specifications - most conspicuosly the 20" barrel. If I continue to shoot scores like I shot today, I doubt anybody is going to be breaking out the tape-measures and calipers to be sure all my stuff is just so. The only way I can say getting into the Palmetto gun was a good idea is that it has served as a focal point to keep my interest in the game and to distract me from some other bothersome stuff that's been going on around me for the last several months.

Thanks for looking at my specs/numbers.

I'm thinking about re-installing the adjustable gas block to tame the ejection a bit. Right now, it really will smoke the shooter on my right with spent brass. Will lessening the AMOUNT of gas slow the TIMING of the unlocking enough to influence wear on the bolt?

Edited August 9, 2019 by W.E.G.

[98Z5V]

4 minutes ago, W.E.G. said:

I'm thinking about re-installing the adjustable gas block to tame the ejection a bit. Right now, it really will smoke the shooter on my right with spent brass. Will lessening the AMOUNT of gas slow the TIMING of the unlocking enough to influence wear on the bolt?

Yes, it will.  You may have already fixed that bolt wear, though, and just don't know it, with the further mods you continued to make.  That bolt wear might have been from before.  If that Fulton bolt isn't chewed up, I'd put that one in there instead.  That PSA bolt has been through some hell already.

Sprinco Orange spring - will always have orange paint on the end of it.  That's the end that goes into the extension first - stick the buffer on the unpainted end.  Picking up one wouldn't hurt, just to know what you are working with - try it out.  I think they're $14, straight from Sprinco.  If it's the exact same spring that you have now, dimensionally, I'll buy it from you and pay shipping to me, so you're now out anything.  I'll stick it in a PCC build or something.  

[W.E.G.]

I cleaned-up the rifle real good after yesterday’s highpower rifle match.

 

With the rifle all squeaky-clean, this was a good time to re-check the headspace.

 

I have a set of Forster headspace gages in 0.001” increments from 1.630” to 1.638”

 

The rifle swallowed the 1.633” gage without resistance.

It swallowed the 1.634” gage with some slight resistance. Had to lightly mortar the rifle to get it to spit-out the 1.634” gage.

 

Then I got the braniac idea to “see what would happen” if I tried to feed it the 1.635” gage.

Maaaannnnn……

Wish I hadn’t done that. That thing seized-up in partial battery like no tomorrow.

 

I mortared it zealously a number of times. Not budging.

 

It was fortuitous that the partial-battery condition it was stuck in was such that the charging-handle latch was not engaged in the “catch” on the upper receiver. If the latch had been engaged into the "catch" on the receiver  I suppose I could have taped the latch in the release-position or some such or come up with a third hand somehow. Anyway, time to BRING OUT THE HAMMERS.

 

While sort-of resting the rifle muzzle-upward, and bracing with my knee and my shoulder, I placed the face of big rubber handle against one ear of the charging handle, and I wailed on the opposite face with the 4# hammer. After several blows of the 4# hammer, the rifle spat the 1.635” across the room, and crisis was averted. Lesson learned: Once you get to the point with headspace gages that you have to mortar the rifle at all to get the rifle to spit the gage out. JUST STOP RIGHT THERE. Don’t try the next-size-up gage.

 

With the rifle now clear, I swapped-in my spare DPMS bolt to see what difference there might be in headspace. The DPMS bolt came out of a 2008-vintage DPMS LR-308-T rifle. That bolt probably has about 200-300 rounds fired on it in the LR-308-T, and a few rounds to confirm function also in the Palmetto gun.

 

The headspace dimension of the DPMS bolt was exactly the same as the headspace dimension of the now well-worn Palmetto bolt: 1.634” (with light mortar action required to get the rifle to spit-out the 1.634” gage.

 

For context, I’ll mention that the headspace dimension of most match-grade .308 Winchester ammunition is 1.628”. Some milsurp 7.62 NATO ammo measures slightly longer in headspace dimension – although most NATO-spec ammo I’ve measured is the same dimension as the .308 Winchester match-grade ammo. I use an RCBS Precision Mic tool in conjunction with the Forster headspace gages to arrive at “headspace dimension” measurements of ammunition.

 

Nothing like a little excitement on a Friday afternoon.

 

 

Edited August 9, 2019 by W.E.G.

[98Z5V]

^^^  That's gotta be one expensive headspace gauge set, right there.  That is impressive! 

[W.E.G.]

Yesterday’s range trip started with a better-than-average 20-shot offhand string.

I decided to next shoot slow-fire prone. Got in position to dry fire. Squeeeeze the trigger for first dry-fire shot. Mmmmph! That looked shaky. Breeaathhhe.... another dry-fire. Wait a cotton-pickin’ minute! That crosshair ain’t supposed to shake like that!

Reached up and grabbed the scope tube. Shake-shake. Rattle-rattle. Consarn-it. Scope loose in the mount! Busted out the wrenches, and tightened all the screws. Spent rest of outing re-establishing zeroes for all firing positions. Seems that re-tightening caused one MOA elevation change in what I “thought” was my “good zero.”

Back to the range today to see if zeros are good, and see how my bones manage two days in a row shooting 100 rounds in “the big gun.”

[W.E.G.]

 

 

About 100 rounds downrange again today.

Had to shoot on the 100-yard range because the benchrest crowd was shooting the Virginia State Benchrest Championship on our 200-yard range.

 

Weird thing with the slow-fire prone. I was calling shots center, and it was randomly kicking shots out at 7 o’clock. Several of those shots I called a strong center-shot. Wondering if the scope is doing something wonky. Going to install the scope and mount on one of my reliable 5.56 competition guns and see if same thing happens with shots inexplicably kicking out of the group to 7 o’clock.

 

Ammo for the prone targets was 168 Sierra Matchking and 41.5 IMR 4895. Ammo for the sitting and offhand targets was surplus Santa Barbara (Spanish military).

 

Penny in the pics to help with viewing the scale.

 

A couple rapid-fire targets that score pretty well, even if the groups are nothing to get excited about. Rapid fire prone time limit is 70 seconds, although I shot it in about 57 seconds. Rapid fire prone time limit is 60 seconds – needed almost all of that time. Magazine-change in each rapid-fire string. Magazines loaded five-and-five.

 

40 shots offhand. Fewer “bad shots” than usual in this lot. Zero could have been better. But, I’ve been chasing an offhand zero since 1991. The quest continues.