How much cyclic weight is TOO much?...

[98Z5V]

I've been meaning to bring this up, after my experimentation with a couple sets of the Tubb CWS.  For what I use the CWS for, it's a god send.  I never had damaged brass or beat up cases, which the CWS seems to help with.  I bought them primarily for recoil reduction, and I really only wanted one the the .308.  Well, in my best Brownell's shopping fashion, when I went to add one to the cart, I impulsively changed the number to "2."    <dontknow>

I figured one of them was dedicated to the .308, and I'd play with the other one.  Here's where the other one went, for a couple reasons, and I'll explain in a few...

Rifle details: Spike's billet matched upper and lower set, Spike's 12.875" BAR rail - longer than standard, and might have been a mistake in the initial production run.  LImited numbers and announced kinda quietly, so I jumped on it.  Spike's standard "regular" BCG and the Spike's NiB combat trigger group.  It's also sporting one of the first-release BADASS safety selectors.  BCM Gunfighter large handle - used on every one of my guns, with the exception of replacing it in my .308 AR (now using the TAC OPS 1). MIAD grip, UBR stock, standard carbine spring, and Spike's T2 powdered tungsten buffer. The barrel is a Wilson-Nordic stainless 16" midlength with a .223 Wylde chamber - phenomenal barrel!  <thumbsup>  Optic is a Millet DMS-1 in a Burris PEPR mount.  That's the important stuff.

Now, as we've found out, billet guns can create their own problems, and I was slightly eating up the edges of the T2 buffer, just like the issues we're seeing with these Iron Ridge builds.  It was very slight, but it was there, so something wasn't right with the machining here.  Instead of calling Spike's and trying to get this fixed, since it was a matched set (one of the very first sets out of them, with serial number #31), I decided to try that "spare" CWS in it, to "take up the slack" between the back of the BCG and the buffer face, when closed.  Believe me, it wasn't much, but it was creating a small problem on the buffer face...  <dontknow>

(cont...)

[98Z5V]

Now, this isn't a "hard cycling" gun.  I really didn't need the recoil reduction properties of the CWS for this, but simply the additional 0.080" that the CWS adds to the length of the BCG, when installed - I needed that to keep from furthering the slight damage on the buffer face.

I went to the range, and installed the CWS shell, only.  With a 16" midlength barrel, it was already a nice, soft recoil, and it's rocking a T2 heavier buffer, so I just wanted to make sure it cycled fine - it was great.  I figured, Hmmm...  let's toss in that steel insert, and see how it does with the PMC Bronze 55gr blasting ammo - steel insert was a success, and it also changed an already light recoil a little more.  <thumbsup>  You know what was next.  <laughs>

Out with the steel insert, and in with the tungsten insert - this thing isn't going to run on mildly loaded PMC Bronze, a CWS with heavy insert, and a T2 buffer...  Wrong.  The thing recoiled like my 10/22.  I was shocked that it even ran.

As a rundown, here's a list of weights of possible components that you could combine, based on available (non-custom) buffers, and the CWS:

Carbine buffer = 3.0 oz

(carbine) H1 buffer = 3.8 oz

(carbine) H2 buffer = 4.6 oz

(carbine) H3 buffer = 5.4 oz

(carbine) HSS buffer = 6.5 oz (stainless steel buffer)

Slash's Carbine X-Heavy buffer = 8.0 oz

CWS only = 1.54 oz

CWS/steel = 2.79 oz

CWS/tungsten = 4.05 oz

Now, never would I have imagined that a quality 16" midlength would even cycle with a 4.6oz buffer, with the added 4.05oz of the heavy CWS config.  That's identical to adding an 8.65oz buffer to a 16" midlength setup...  <dontknow>

Go figure - but it shoots like a .22LR.  In the next few weeks, I'll get it back out and cycle some notoriously weak Herters 55gr through it, and see what happens.  As it sits now, PMC Bronze 55gr isn't even a challenge for it, as far as reliable cycling goes. 

[Jgun]

That's a beautiful gun, any chance you could post a couple of closer shots of the receiver and the rail? I'm also curious, as you describe it, I'm understanding that you have a heavy buffer in it, along with the CWS and the tungsten insert. Do you still need to pull the pivot pin to open the upper? As I have understood the CWS to work, it's supposed to delay the bolt opening slightly, right? Isn't it supposed to reduce the rate of fire in FA weapons? So, I'm wondering, can you detect any slower cycling during rapid fire or double taps?

[edgecrusher]

I'm interested in the CSS in your .308. I have looked at that system but was unsure on how it would affect my rifles. Maybe an October demonstration?

[98Z5V]

As I have understood the CWS to work, it's supposed to delay the bolt opening slightly, right? Isn't it supposed to reduce the rate of fire in FA weapons? So, I'm wondering, can you detect any slower cycling during rapid fire or double taps?

I don't usually shoot this one fast, but I'll take it out and do so, just to see how it reacts.  The action of BCG cycling happens so fast anyway, that I doubt it will make a difference in semi-auto firing.  I'll find out though - I can get the rounds out fast on the other guns, so I'll see what this one does now.

Yes, I pull both pins to take it apart now. 

I'm interested in the CSS in your .308. I have looked at that system but was unsure on how it would affect my rifles. Maybe an October demonstration?

Absolutely!  <thumbsup>

Jgun, here's the build thread on it, with more pics.  I can get more pics if you'd like, besides those - just let me know what angle, etc. 

http://308ar.com/forum/black-rifles/isn't-this-how-it-always-starts/

[washguy]

Very very nice!  Ive got the tubbs 308 buffer spring in mine....works well...I think his products do what they advertise ! <thumbsup> Wash

[98Z5V]

I'm not scheduled to work tomorrow, so if I'm not called in - these two guys are gonna get it. 

In the interest of speed, I'll take this rifle out and compare it to the 14.5" ARF billet build with the S3G trigger and the H3 buffer, and see how it stacks up with this super heavy buffer/BCG combo. 

Last weekend, in the riverbed shooting pit, I stuck a target out there about 75~80 yards, sat back against the truck tire, and used my knees for arm/rifle support.  Kinda comfortable, sitting in the shade for the first time that day.  ;D  This was 10-rds of Prvi Partizan 69gr HPBT Match, through this gun.  That PEPR mount and scope have been off and on this gun at least a dozen times, too.  It's still doing it's job.  <thumbsup>

[edgecrusher]

I like killing cardboard baddies, currently try to find some scrap around work to make a steel bad guy

[Robocop1051]

I'm not scheduled to work tomorrow, so if I'm not called in - these two guys are gonna get it.

I don't like the way the one on the right is looking at me. He looks extra guilty. Make sure you shoot him extra dead! <thumbsup>

[98Z5V]

I don't like the way the one on the right is looking at me. He looks extra guilty. Make sure you shoot him extra dead! <thumbsup>

He'll know for sure that this is from you...  <thumbsup> <laughs>

[Robocop1051]

I ordered a 17" rifle length barrel with a stainless steel carrier for my SI-D .308. That combined with my CS spring and AR-restor, I'm hoping to get similar results to your AR-15.

**Please read that as 'hoping' and 'similar', not as 'expecting' and 'same'. I may be a dreamer, but I still live in reality.

I also have a mega AR-15 I've been working on, on the side. I wanted to put a 14.5" middy piston system on it. I too am worried about "weight". I have the CS spring with a standard carbine buffer. I was tempted to add the H buffer and/or CWS, but wanted to wait till I felt the rifle as-is first. (I also haven't decided on staying 5.56 or going for a 300 Blackout)

I can't wait to hear how your AR continues to shoot.

[98Z5V]

Alright, Robo - I wore out that guy on the right for ya.  <thumbsup> He got some "special treatment."  <laughs>

I'm working on uploading the vids right now, and once that's done I'll be back in here for some enlightening info.  Let's just say that the heavy cyclic rate isn't affecting the gun at all, as far as doubles go.  It's just as effective as other guns and configs.  <thumbsup>

[98Z5V]

Well, the 14.5" ARF billet gun was doing well, with the H3 buffer and the S3G trigger.  Started at the low ready, chambered and on safe, and set the delay on the timer.  I was getting an average of 1.15 seconds to 1.20 seconds for two shots on target.  The lowest time was 1.08 or maybe even 1.07 seconds.  High times were in the mid 1.20s.

When I went to the Spike's billet gun, it's the one with all the added cyclic weight.  It's also sporting the Spike's nickel boron coated Battle Trigger - alot heavier than the S3G trigger, for sure.  This gun is also two pounds heavier than the 14.5" gun.  Times on this one were averaging in the mi 1.20s, with high times almost at 1.40 seconds.  I think the lowest time was around 1.15 seconds. 

Here's some payback for Robo - These were all sighted on the head, instead of centermass torso.  I took care of this guy for you, Robo.  <thumbsup>

Here are the targets:

Here's a bonus for everyone that stuck through the vids - this girl can shoot, but she got caught up on this run due to a bad mag, and bolt overrides.

[98Z5V]

Targets ended up like this - first one is the 16" gun, ended up with two full mags in it.  Not bad, and it's slightly slower getting two shots off.  I don't think that has anything to do with the cycling of the BCG; it's just a heavier weapon, with a heavier trigger pull. 

Here's the target for the 14.5" gun.  First mag went into centermass grouping, and the last mag went into "Robo's Revenge," aiming at the mellon.  I ended up with the best overall times in the second mag - smaller target, go figure.  <dontknow>

[survivalshop]

The question was ,how much cyclic weight is too much.

Well ,my answer would be to take your rifle  (with all the added weight ) & dump it in the water ,mud & sand & see if it works .

Than , take it to oh ,somewhere where's its around 0 deg. F. for a couple of days & see how it does there .

My point is all this stuff works on a range queen ,that's pampered with cleaning on a regular basis ( and that's OK ),but in harsh environments ,they will probably malfunction.

All these systems for the AR type rifles have been tested to work in most all conditions & environments.

If you are setting up a 5.56 to shoot like a .22 LR , it can be done ,but does have draw backs, depending what you are using it for .

[edgecrusher]

oh yeah, october will be fun. my local range has had some bad luck and been made an example of, so rules are very strict. no running with scissors, walking and chewing gum, ect. i like her attitude, more pissed about being taped while having a bad mag than anything. she can definately help out my fiance, who will die during the zombie attacks, not for lack of accuracy but her slow ass taking her time. the paper zombies and "zombie turkeys" barely let her escape harm as it is. i still can't get her to just do a mag dump for the fun of it.  <dontknow>  good stuff, and now i have to add the cws to my list for both my .308's just to see. and as for extreme conditions, survivalshop, i can do the winter testing, but somehow i think that they'll still pass. it gets nice and cold up here in the winter, but you'll have to find someone else to dump their rifle in the crap, i'll carry mine overhead thank you.

[98Z5V]

The question was ,how much cyclic weight is too much.

Well ,my answer would be to take your rifle  (with all the added weight ) & dump it in the water ,mud & sand & see if it works .

Than , take it to oh ,somewhere where's its around 0 deg. F. for a couple of days & see how it does there .

My point is all this stuff works on a range queen ,that's pampered with cleaning on a regular basis ( and that's OK ),but in harsh environments ,they will probably malfunction.

All these systems for the AR type rifles have been tested to work in most all conditions & environments.

If you are setting up a 5.56 to shoot like a .22 LR , it can be done ,but does have draw backs, depending what you are using it for .

Well, setting it up to recoil like a .22LR definitely wasn't the objective - just adding the 0.080" length to the BCG was the objective, so I wouldn't continue to eat the edges of the buffer.  Testing it, with the different inserts was just a (surprising) experiment, with a couple nice benefits. 

It runs on PMC Bronze for range ammo, and it doesn't even hiccup in the least with the 68 and 69gr match ammo that I typically shoot through it.  This configuration of gun is what I wanted to build that I could do just about anything with - short range, medium range, a little bit more.  Not too heavy, but not light, 1x4 optic.  It's not meant to excel at any one aspect, but kind do anything well. 

If it got to the point where it was packed with mud and gunk, I'd do a field strip and quick cleaning on it, just like all my issued military carbines and rifles, and I'd do that before I needed to use it out there.  If I get into some cold weather, and it doesn't cycle, I can always just pull that tungsten insert right out, and it'll cycle fine.  <thumbsup>

[98Z5V]

The question was ,how much cyclic weight is too much.

Well ,my answer would be to take your rifle  (with all the added weight ) & dump it in the water ,mud & sand & see if it works .

Tell you what, man - as soon as you put up a vid of you dumping one of your favorite rifles in the water, mud & sand & see if it works, I'll do the exact same to this rifle - and see if it still works with the heavy CWS config.  <thumbsup>

The objective of this all was based on a question from Jgun - does the added weight affect being able to fire it fast?  Or does the added weight (and slower carrier speed) affect that in a negative manner?  I can definitely say that the added weight doesn't affect being able to fire it 0.10 second slower than a lighter gun with an H3 buffer in it, when I've got two other contributing factors that are applied to that difference in speed - total gun weight, and a heavier trigger.  <dontknow>

Just to test this even further, I'll just put the CWS in the lighter gun next time, and see how I come out.  I'll run that same gun with the H3, then I'll replace the H3 with the Spike's T2 and the heavy config of the CWS, and see what the times are.  That was the original question anyway - not whether I can dunk-test a DI gun and see if it comes out like the H&K 416 demo vids.