Ever get a reaction rod stuck in an upper....?

[Tack14]

My neck is getting a little achy from the stack of dunce caps I am waving around. 🙂

Has anybody else ever gotten a reaction rod STUCK in an upper?

Just got barrel torqued down and checked feel/fit of a few things afterwards last night, gas tube/block, handguard, linear comp etc.  Needed to get a couple more taps on the gas tube pin this morning and when I finished that up I went to pull the reaction rod out of the upper and it is stuck, mechanically.

The rod I have is a MW Industries 308 one.  There is a removable top section that keeps it indexed with the charging handle area of the upper (this prevents rotation), I had it on there when it put the rod in last night.

The upper receiver is built (ie dust cover and fwd assist are installed) and it really feels like maybe somehow the pawl on the fwd assist is hitting the reaction rod somehow, but maybe it is something else.  It doesnt jam until you just about have the reaction rod out of the receiver.  I don't know 100% that it is the fwd assist but there just aren't many things in there right now - dust cover is flipped open and not in the way, obviously BCG isn't there, the barrel is in.  Gas tube/block, handguard etc has already been pulled back off, so its just built upper receiver, barrel, and barrel nut with reaction rod.

I can slide the reaction rod back forward just fine and slide through whole travel OK, just at the very end about where the bolt/barrel "cog" machined into the end of the rod is about to clear the forward assist, it gets stuck.

If it is the forward assist pawl getting stuck somehow against the rod  I suppose I could drive the fwd assist pin out and remove it -- I would prefer not to but I am not sure I could sneak anything between the rod and the fwd assist pawl from the rear to try to make it push away from the rod, not much clearance betwen the rod and the upper.

There is a position of the reaction rod's travel just a bit ahead of as far back as it will come back before it hits whatever is stopping it that allows me to push the fwd assist in what would probably be enough to drive the fwd assist roll pin out.

Anybody else have any better ideas?

 

Odd, this.  It just seems like something that shouldn't happen with a reaction rod.

 

Thanks!

Tack14

[shooterrex]

The section that goes in the charging handle slot. How is it held on?? Is the forward assist hanging up on a bolt hole holding that part on? Just drive the forward assist pin out enough to remove the forward assist. You don't need to drive it out all the way.

[Tack14]

Thanks shooterrex for the reply.

There are 3 screws that go through the top of the add-on piece, they screw through the add-on piece and into the body of the reaction rod a bit.

It probably isn't hanging up on a bolt hole, I think those screws/bolts go partway into the rod but rather into blind holes.  But it wouldn't surprise me if that ?indexing bar? (sounds fancy hehe) being there interferes enough with movement of the rod that it could be contributing to it jamming against the fwd assist. 

WIll see what I find when I get the fwd assist pin out enough to get the FA out.

thanks!

Tack14

[Tack14]

It was the forward assist.  Sticking in there JUST enough, I guess, to get in the way.  Soon as I had that out the rod was no problem.

Even after taking the top bar off so its just the reaction rod, the rod hangs again on the fwd assist.  Maybe this one is sticking out more than they should be, or something.  Odd.

At least with the top bar off, I have about a .090-.100" deep slot running along the side of the bar I can hopefully slide something into to get between the fwd assist and the rod from the back end that will let me get the rod past the tip of the fwd assist.

This seems like bad design somewhere unless my fwd assist is defective or something. 

[dpete]

The rod was probably designed to be used before the forward assist is installed.  It wouldn't surprise me one bit that some well educated design engineer had a dumbshiit moment and did that without thinking of uppers with them already installed.

[Tack14]

Yeah, that slot the top bar sits into and screws down... of course if the pawl of the fwd assist drops into that well that is just going to restrict of the rod inside the upper.

This really doesn't make sense, one should not have to remove fwd assist just to put their upper onto a reaction rod and be able to get it back off.

@dpete Yep.  This is the sort of thing that really ought to be in a @#$@#$m manual.  Of course, there is no manual included. 

@98Z5V I am curious, I saw a post you had mentioned (after I had already bought this MWI one...) about you using a Geiselle (or however you spell it) reaction rod -- have you ever put a 308 Upper on it that had a fwd assist in the rear/lower position and seen the rod get stuck on the fwd assist?  I am wondering if maybe I should get a Geiselle instead.

 

It is probably too late to send this one back where I got it from but I'm going to try. AFAIC having to remove anything pinned on to be able to use your tool is a major design flaw.  There is a reason some parts are pinned into place -- because you should never have to take it back off again unless you are doing a complete rebuild.

Thanks,

Tack14
 

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Tack14

[Tack14]

incomplete edit on my last post, in the first paragraph I mean to say, "drops into that slot, well that is just going to further restrict movement of the rod inside the upper."

 

Also, I watched a number of videos showing build of AR uppers before I ever grabbed the first pin punch and they ALL said put the fwd assist on first before installing barrel.  I think dpete is right, brain fart design with this reaction rod. 🙂

Edited May 6, 2021 by Tack14

[Tack14]

The gentleman in tech dept I spoke with at Midwest Industries says they have NEVER had this problem and they  build and work on 308 uppers there with their own rods.

He suspects my particular upper locates the fwd assist in a  place that is causing this problem.

Hadn't considered that but it makes sense.

Hope my BCG's are gonna be happy.... guess I better find out.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Tack14

[jtallen83]

32 minutes ago, Tack14 said:

He suspects my particular upper locates the fwd assist in a  place that is causing this problem.

Could be the forward assist, a few years back I bought what was claimed to be a 308AR specific forward assist, they mentioned a longer pawl for proper function............ I had to remove the forward assist to get the BCG out, the longer pawl acted like a chinese finger trap, swapped to a regular forward assist from the parts drawer and problem solved, something to double check if you see the issue with your BCG.

[Tack14]

Thanks jtallen83.  The fwd assist kits I got from KAK are supposed to be AR15.

 

That is kind of what it seems like, chinese finger puzzle, trying to figure out how I would get the rod out. 🙂  How to get something in there with such tight clearances to push the pawl out away from the rod so it unjams...

[Thirstydg323]

What was it hitting? 

Think about BCG,whats to stop that from getting stuck?

[Tack14]

Yes exactly, that is what I'm worried about.  Sheez.  I guess I better call KAK and ask them what in the shinola is going on here.

 

[392heminut]

I've never had a forward assist on a 308 upper that worked properly and had one that actually broke because it was protruding into the pathway of the bolt carrier. After that I quit putting forward assist in anything I build. If the upper is made for a forward assist it gets one of these;

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/100339791?pid=198053

I live in the desert, 30 miles from the Mexican border and we have extremelly dusty conditions here, and I have never, in all the years of shooting AR's, had a forward assist do anything but make the problem worse! The couple of times that happened it had nothing to do with dust or dirt either, it was crappy ammo.

[98Z5V]

10 hours ago, Tack14 said:

 I am curious, I saw a post you had mentioned (after I had already bought this MWI one...) about you using a Geiselle (or however you spell it) reaction rod -- have you ever put a 308 Upper on it that had a fwd assist in the rear/lower position and seen the rod get stuck on the fwd assist?  I am wondering if maybe I should get a Geiselle instead.

Never ever had that problem.  That Geissele 308 rod is on "constant loan" to my gun pusher, too, and it lives most of the time in the shop.  When I need it, I go get it from him, then place it "back on loan" a few days later.  He uses it more than I do.  Well, wait, that's not completely true - I build most of his 308 uppers, at the shop. 

[Tack14]

@392heminut now THAT is one beautiful, beautiful piece of Acetal.

🙂

CHA CHING

Thank you very, very much.  I will order some of those with my next parts order.

Tack14

@98Z5V thanks!

Interestingly enough the guy at MWI I talked to Friday said they usually take the gas key alignment bar the 308 URR's come with off for the ones they use on their benches and leave them off. 🙂

 

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by Tack14

[Tack14]

Also, after pulling the forward assist the 2nd time to get rod unstuck again, I oiled up the  BCG and charging handle that will be going into this one and with those in there, and slightly holding in the forward assist to ~"depth at rest" (with no forward assist pin) with my thumb I tried cycling the BCG manually by hand.  It bumped or snagged on the forward assist a couple times, but once I moved my thumb to being more centered over the FA vs angled on edge of FA button to hold it in to ~"depth at rest", I seemed to be able to cycle the BCG without it hitting.  It is VERY close, and I am only moderately certain that the clearance is there, or will stay there.

I am not willing to gamble wrecking a high-dollar (LANTAC) BCG, upper receiver, and/or charging handle over having a working forward assist that I will likely never use (I have yet to use/need it on my AR15...).

So I will get some of those Schuster fwd assist plugs, or *maybe* a different brand (I did find some made of steel that look just like a forward assist on the outside but nothing inside except a place for the pin to hold it in place).

Thank you so much for that tip 392heminut.

This is one of the great things  about AR's over older battle rifles.  I still love the M14 but there just isn't as much capability to customize with "off the shelf" parts.  Even back in the day, there was only so much aftermarket stuff out there for them.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Tack14

[jtallen83]

2 hours ago, Tack14 said:

or *maybe* a different brand

I bought one a few years back, don't remember where I found it, good fit but the black finish has worn from the white Delrin. Now I try to find out if they are solid color or coated, so far it has been cheaper to plug the hole with a FA but I'm out of the batch I bought a few years back when I saw them cheap.

[392heminut]

15 minutes ago, jtallen83 said:

I bought one a few years back, don't remember where I found it, good fit but the black finish has worn from the white Delrin. Now I try to find out if they are solid color or coated, so far it has been cheaper to plug the hole with a FA but I'm out of the batch I bought a few years back when I saw them cheap.

The ones I use seem to be black all the way through, I've never seen any kind of white 'wear through' on any of them.

[Tack14]

Just ordered some of these:

https://www.tacticalgunparts.net/forward-assist-delete-plug-for-ar15-m4.html

[392heminut]

38 minutes ago, Tack14 said:

Just ordered some of these:

https://www.tacticalgunparts.net/forward-assist-delete-plug-for-ar15-m4.html

You could probably get the same thing by just taking the lever and spring out of a stock forward assist assembly.

[Tack14]

Ah man... so I looked and, well I just about could but the way the body of the forward assist has that flat on the side that is about 9/16" long, it would let it slide around.

However that does still have my "gears" turning a bit....

 

[392heminut]

6 hours ago, Tack14 said:

Ah man... so I looked and, well I just about could but the way the body of the forward assist has that flat on the side that is about 9/16" long, it would let it slide around.

However that does still have my "gears" turning a bit....

 

Dude, I don't think your gears EVER quit turning!

[Tack14]

I resemble that remark. 🙂

[Tack14]

So just as a footnote... I got the forward assist plugs I chose to buy in, and they are really cool but just as an FYI in case anyone else was looking at them, where these are drilled for the forward assist roll pin will make it look like the forward assist is stuck pushed in all the time, vs. the amount of the button you would normally see sticking out.

But otherwise they are OK.

 

[jtallen83]

1 hour ago, Tack14 said:

But otherwise they are OK.

Makes them better, if it's a weapon you want to manipulate fast or with gloves the FA does nothing but get in the way 99.99 percent of the time.