Barrels

[survivalshop]

I know we talk a lot about what barrel to put on a rifle ,but is there that much difference in say a  $ 500 range to a $ 300 range as far as real documented accuracy ?

Lets say you put  a ( just a comparison ) Noveske vs a Kreiger Criterion . Is it really going to out last & out shoot the less expensive barrel ?

I don't mean the seat of the pants ,my rifle shoots better than so & so's , I mean a documented comparison between a high priced barrel & ,not so high priced ?

Is it really worth it the extra cost ?

If I could get a barrel that shoots that good , will that accuracy , if really better, stay that way , compared to the lower priced barrel ?

Any links you know that really compare manufacturers barrels .

[unforgiven]

Good question brother survival,also how many rounds can go thru a barrel before replacement? I was told depends on shooting style full auto vs. semi which I understand but for the sake of argument lets stay with semi-auto fire.The tech at RRA said he could burn one up in 500 or could last 10K+ stag said in semi,could last 20K.What do you guys think?Or does stainless last longerthan all? Shoot on bros.

[Tripledeuce]

  In the 70's and 80's I was building unlimited guns for Handgun Metalic Silhouette.  using mainly Douglass barrels, but also shilen and obermier.

  i bought the barrels in 32-34 inch lengths, and cut them into 15" blanks.  I replaced many barrel ls that had "worn out".  It occur ed anywhere from 4,000 to 8,000 rounds.

    I still have several that I sectioned.  They all showed severe throat wear,going from"no" rifling to "full" rifling in 1 1/2 to 2".

  This is fact, from master class shooters, and known rounds through a gun.

  Although the guns would shoot perfect 40"s in com petion, they were not accurate enough to win the shoot offs, 4" steel circles at at 175 yards with metallic sights.

    All barrels were "match" grade, and air gauged, the best available at the time.

    Shilen wore quicker than Douglass, douglass quicker than Obermayer.

    Factory Remington, when they came out with the 7br wore about like Douglass.

    The Benchrest shooters I have talked to say a "match" barrel is good for about 1,500 rounds, then is a accurate varmint gun.

  I never personally saw a barrel that would go 10,000, in competition.

  Respectfully

  Terry

[6132expert]

I cannot say one is better then the other, but what I can say is there is really no comparission to a 70's - 80's barrel to the barrels made now. Metals have come a long way and th metal is made to last much longer then it us to. Also as far as how many rounds can be put down a barrel before it is trash depends mostly on how well the shooter maintains their rifle, is the shooter using steel or brass, the weight of the bullet may too affect longivity, but there is no reason why a good grade of SS could not hold up to thousands uppon thousands of rounds down the tube.

[Jgun]

Survivalshop,

I know you said no seat of the pants opinions here, but I thought I'd give you a different hypothetical barrel comparison and see it you think it might be valid. I'm thinking that an off the shelf barrel, that is not chambered to your specs is only going to be better than another less expensive off the shelf barrel if a higher quality blank is used. As far as I know the bench rest guys prefer cut rifled over button rifled, the first costs more to produce. Now on a semi auto gas gun the chamber needs to be larger for functional reliability. I have to believe that the very act of stripping the rd from the mag by the bolt carrier in a semi has to be more violent on the rd itself than a manually operated bolt action.  Another thing here is that certain off the shelf barrels, Novesle for instance, demand a higher price because of the brands reputation. They might be only marginally better made than a no name barrel, but no one wants to buy the cheap one and then pay for a second (more expensive) barrel if they're not satisfied with the accuracy of the rifle they build. I believe that a barrel, custom made to your specs from a quality blank has the potential to be more accurate than a high priced $500 off the shelf barrel, especially if you have it chambered "tight", and the custom barrels don't really cost more than the expensive off the shelf barrels. I doubt that there would be much if any difference in the accurate life of one over the other, assuming they were both made from 416 stainless and had the same ammo shot through them. One possible exception might be the stainless the Lothar Walther uses, I know that they claim that it outlasts the 416. Personally, I'm anxious to try the melonite coating on a barrel to test for myself if it has any effect on extending the accurate life of the barrel (as claimed).

[Tripledeuce]

    416 is  416.  Doesn't matter if it was made in the '70' 0r 2011.

    I gave hard data, not top of the head conjecture.

  Sure bbls will last for thousands of rounds,,,it just depends on what your standard of accuracy is.

  Respectfully

  Terry

[washguy]

Hi Guys

go to the video link from this link

http://68forums.com/forums/showthread.php?13059-difference-between-match-barrel-and-not

also...ive got two of H's melonite 6.8 barrels they are freakin tack drivers...but ive only got bout 300 rds doen the pipes  Wash

[survivalshop]

Where are you getting Melonite coated at ?

What I mean & would like to see is a comparison of which barrel manufactures have or sell the best blanks/barrels , is there such a thing ,has any one ,maybe Sniper unit armorers ?

I have no doubts about the chamber forcing cone erosion . It also has to do with how hot the load you use., type of powder & so on .

I have always thought that a good name brand made barrel will get the most round counts , but is a higher dollar manufactured , really worth the extra cost when you are just a casual shooter .

We all know we want to shoot the best we can every time we are at the range , but is that high dollar barrel really shoot that much better & have a longer service life .

Almost all the barrels I use are match grade .

[washguy]

Hi Survival    Ive got two melonite barrels from here in 6.8 spc    www.ar15performance.com

when Harrison offers up the light 308 barrel ill be getting one <thumbsup>  Wash

[survivalshop]

The problem I see with most of the info out there about barrels except for what was in tripledeuce's post , (with first hand experience) , is just ,how can I say , vendor hype .

They want to sell a product & say its "faster, stronger" than other barrels . They are showing you there data , no independent confirmation about any of it .

I'm not saying there is no truth to it ,just its info from some one who wants to sell there product , if ya know what I mean .

What about the hammer forged barrels , I have also heard a lot of hype about them , but the reason for this post is I'm looking for real data or first hand experience with the different manufacturers products and any comparisons.

[Jgun]

Survivalshop,

From the videos in the post above, I'd say it's obvious that a hand lapped match grade barrel with the smoother finish and lack of imperfections will outperform a mass produced production barrel. If made from the same material, and to the same ID (one not tighter than the other) I don't see why the lower quality barrel should wear out any sooner. Of course, if it's not accurate to begin with, because of poor quality, inconsistent rifling, you would have a harder time telling when the accuracy goes away, as you can with a high quality, sub moa, match grade barrel, that's accurate to begin with. I mentioned trying the melonite. My interest is to see if it has any effect on reducing the accuracy of a barrel that has been treated. To that end I'm planning to take my 300 barrel, test it off the bench for accuracy at 100yds with my final 300BLK load, I will then send it to LOSOK to be treated, and repeat the 100yd test when I get it back. I will also rechrono my loads after treatment to see if I can verify the claims of increased FPS due to the reduced friction claimed.

I'm thinking that If the supposed superiority of an off the shelf high end barrel to a lower priced one is something you seriously want to prove/disprove, all you'd need to do would be to buy two barrels of the same material, specs, etc. and test them side by side, maybe try two barrels from the same company that are sold as their mid priced and their match upgrade? Doesn't Rainier offer their own barrels at different quality/prices? I thought Robocop mentioned something about it in one of his posts.

[washguy]

Jgun  I got rid of the dpms sass and then got two rainier select polygonals for my 308's.

using federal matchking .both barrels are tack drivers at short range 100/200 yds and no probs hitting 6" steel disks at 500 yds...durable

? i dunno cause they only have bout 200 rounds or so down the tube. I will tell you this the poly's dont foul hardly at all..looking at the bore...i dont see how this polygonal stuff works,but it does! <thumbsup>  Wash

[Jgun]

The polygonal rifling is supposed to be similar to the Obermeyer 5R rifling in function, and doesn't foul as much as conventional rifling because it doesn't have those tight 90 degree corners where the sides of the lands meet the surface of the grooves. I think that this is one of the reasons that Noveske gets a premium for their barrels even though their not all rifled like that. I think they actually charge more for their polygonal rifled barrels. Wonder if they actually cost more to produce?

[constructor - Banned]

416R stainless barrels will wear out much faster than 410 stainless or CMV, Melonite treated CMV barrels are said to last 30% longer than a chromelined barrel.

[constructor - Banned]

Where are you getting Melonite coated at ?

What I mean & would like to see is a comparison of which barrel manufactures have or sell the best blanks/barrels , is there such a thing ,has any one ,maybe Sniper unit armorers ? No there isn't

I have no doubts about the chamber forcing cone erosion . It also has to do with how hot the load you use., type of powder & so on .

I have always thought that a good name brand made barrel will get the most round counts , but is a higher dollar manufactured , really worth the extra cost when you are just a casual shooter .

No, 416 is 416. Some high dollar barrels are softer stainless than cheaper barrels so they wear out faster. The bench rest guys can tell you which barrels wear out fastest. check 6mmBR.com

We all know we want to shoot the best we can every time we are at the range , but is that high dollar barrel really shoot that much better & have a longer service life .

Almost all the barrels I use are match grade .

Not a longer service life for sure. Most shooters can't shoot to the full capability of a cheap barrel let alone a real match barrel. Lock one in a machine to see what they are really capable of.

[survivalshop]

Not a longer service life for sure. Most shooters can't shoot to the full capability of a cheap barrel let alone a real match barrel. Lock one in a machine to see what they are really capable of.

I do not have or will I get a machine rest to test barrels , good idea ,but hardly worth the expense when I'm sure the info is out there from another source.

Jgun,

you test will be interesting . That Melonite coating sounds more like a bluing process, but much harder , it will be interesting to see the results.

The problems I see with most tests not being conducted in a lab setting is the ability to test exactly the same between the test samples . Not saying your test will not be valid ,but to get the proper results , all paramiters have to be exact , to have proper compared results .

I can see this post could just keep going ,because in a way , we could never know the answer . Being no two barrels , even from the same manufacturer , may not be the same , it would probably come down to a group of manufacturers that have a reputation of having  good barrels .

I was just contemplating what barrel manufacturer to use on the next two builds I have coming up a 5.56 & 7.62 , I am pleased with the two Kreiger barrels I have for my 7.62"s may go with another manufacturer just to see if there is a difference .

I have a pre-ban .223 Olympic arms build ,with there S/S match 24" HB ,1-10 twist & it is a shooter ,still.

Back then they were one of the few that made them , we are talking over twenty five years ago . I have no idea how many rds. were put through this rifle ,because I never counted , but she still goes to the range ,never had a scope , A2 sights  & the first type of free float hand guard on AR's.

This rifle impresses all who shoot her .

[98Z5V]

Oly barrels have always been good, brother - they have that down.  Same kind of thing here, I've got a 16" carbine, and that thing is WAY more accurate than you'd expect out of it - great barrel.  It's been shot so much over the years, and I have no idea what the round count is.  It still get it done, very well.  <thumbsup>

[unforgiven]

One thing I did do for my 5.56 and .308 I maintain a round count for each barrel [see what happens in the future] the other variable is the cryogenic treatment of barrels.RRA Lar-8 has the barrel on this model treated as such,other companies offer this process for barrels in general.Armalite in there FAQ. states they found this to be of no benefit and does not do it.What are your thoughts on this matter.Shoot on bros.

[survivalshop]

I think the Cyro treatment is to relieve the stress on parts from manufacturing. I guess if you can rearrange the molecules of metal with high heat ,maybe sub freezing it may do the same .

[planeflyer21]

It has been quite awhile since I read up on cryo treatments.

IIRC cryo treating does a number of things, chief among them aligning the molecules more tightly.  This is the same claim that is made of forging, and hammer forging barrels.

The cost isn't much, if a person was to have it done on their own.

First and foremost, quality machining makes the biggest difference.

Jon

[constructor - Banned]

Dan Lilja has an article on Cryo. Proved it only removes 7% of stress...he says it's not worth it and a gimmick.

[constructor - Banned]

I do not have or will I get a machine rest to test barrels , good idea ,but hardly worth the expense when I'm sure the info is out there from another source.

Jgun,

you test will be interesting . That Melonite coating sounds more like a bluing process, but much harder , it will be interesting to see the results.

The problems I see with most tests not being conducted in a lab setting is the ability to test exactly the same between the test samples . Not saying your test will not be valid ,but to get the proper results , all paramiters have to be exact , to have proper compared results .

I can see this post could just keep going ,because in a way , we could never know the answer . Being no two barrels , even from the same manufacturer , may not be the same , it would probably come down to a group of manufacturers that have a reputation of having  good barrels .

I was just contemplating what barrel manufacturer to use on the next two builds I have coming up a 5.56 & 7.62 , I am pleased with the two Kreiger barrels I have for my 7.62"s may go with another manufacturer just to see if there is a difference .

I have a pre-ban .223 Olympic arms build ,with there S/S match 24" HB ,1-10 twist & it is a shooter ,still.

Back then they were one of the few that made them , we are talking over twenty five years ago . I have no idea how many rds. were put through this rifle ,because I never counted , but she still goes to the range ,never had a scope , A2 sights  & the first type of free float hand guard on AR's.

This rifle impresses all who shoot her .

Melonite is not a blue, it is a heat treat process that  turns the surface black and offer a corrosion resistant finish.

[Retired JM]

Melonite is not a blue, it is a heat treat process that  turns the surface black and offer a corrosion resistant finish.

Various manufactuers have different names for it like melonite, WASP, or tennifer. Generically, it's referred to as nitride carburization. It provides a finish that's superior to bluing or parking for weather/rust, since nitriding penetrates the metal versus a surface treatment. In the bore nitriding provides a harder, slicker surface than chrome lining. Another advantage over chrome is nitriding gives a more uniform contact surface for the bullet since there are no thin spots or "micro-clumps" in the chrome linining. This results in a small increase in intrinsic accuracy of the weapon and slightly higher MVs. Nitriding also increases the longevity of the barrel due to the "toughness" and depth of the treatment. The only rifle makers I know of using nitriding are FN (SCAR), Sig (556 series), HK, and LWRCi. There are probably others, though.

Here's a link to a company page that explains the melonite process:

http://www.northeastcoating.com/SaltBathNitriding_1.htm

I've got a 556 that I use as a truck gun and otherwise abuse. Eats everything without question, gives carbine-level accuracy and cleans up in a snap. I really think that nitriding is the way forward when it comes to rust/wear-proofing a barrel.

[survivalshop]

One would think that the way the barrel was made , would also count on how good any internal finish was put on it . Meaning if its got rough rifling & miss shaped lands , its going to have them even after any coating .

Any imperfection in a Chrome lined barrel can be lapped out as in the case of Fulton Armory's match grade chrome lined barrels . The milspec barrels that are made for most of our military , this is not done & its really not needed. The lumps flatten out with use ,but they are not made for match rifles ether .

Bluing is not a coating , it penetrates the metal some what ,but its not meant for rifling , its a rust prevention system & even though its a very old system , it does a good job if kept clean & oiled .

I like the idea of this coating & will read up on it , But as I said , I mostly use Stainless Steel barrels , so corrosion is not on my preventive list . Hell when I clean my barrels ,I don't use any oil , the bullet jacket is a bearing surface & none is needed . It would just burn off the first couple of shots & leave more residue to foul the action & bbl. & more to clean up.

I want to see you guys results with already broken in barrels that are coated this way to see how this Melonite coating works out .

One more note , Just because a bunch of manufacturers use a product or system does not necessarily mean its the best , could just mean cheaper or easy-er or both for manufacturing .

Coatings have come a long way through the years .

[constructor - Banned]

Melonite is not a coating it is a heat treat.

I've had about 8000 of them done in the last 3 years as of Oct.

I spec the surface at 68 R .010 deep. that means the .004" tall lands are 68 rockwell all the way through.

The military tests have shown Melonite treated barrels to last apx 30% longer than chrome lined. They are the only barrels to ever pass the 36hr salt spray test.

5 Navy guys in San Diego have been getting 3/8" groups at 100 yds with these plain production 4150 CMV Melonite treated barrels using factory Hornady 110gr HPBTs...6.8

We have some 556s that will shoot 24gr Re15 behind 69gr SMKs into 1/2" at 100 so yes I believe they are better than chrome lined barrels for the same cost.