seasprite Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 Well I'm sitting here with my sore belly bored out of my mind when I remembered that I had a dud round from my 170gr .30-30 loads and I wanted to see if I could find the reason for dud. So I went ahead and pulled the round it had the proper amount of powder and there was no clumping so no contamination that I could detect. After that I put my focus on the primer. The primers are winchester large rifle and I hit it twice at the range just to be sure I didn't seat the primer the first time around. Tried to look at the compound and anvil but my eyes aren't that good any more so I used the camera on macro setting to see and this is what I found It defanently doesn't look right so I decided to take a pic of it next a Winchester primer that fired normal and a new unfired primer from the same lot. The one on the left fired normal, middle one dud, right new. The one that failed looks gritty like sand but given the magnification of the pic I doubt its sand. Anybody have any clues what happened <dontknow> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planeflyer21 Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 It didn't spark. I quit using Winchester primers after getting several like that in .357 loads. CCIs have always gone off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 I have some Remington SM Pistol primers that have been doing that . Every once in a while I get the same thing. I got them during the first buy out, when Butthead first took over the USA. Could be contaminated at the factory or in-between ,no way of knowing unless you get it analyzed .I quit using those Remington's I have, they had at least one failure to ignite , with each firearm I shot them out of , some times a second try they would go off , but it was a crap shoot. I still have like five hundred of them. I may still have one that didn't ignite , I'll have to look . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seasprite Posted March 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 Out of 1000 this is the only one that has done this so far. I have about 275 primers left in this lot along with 200 .30-30 rounds loaded up with them. I'm hoping this just a one bad one out of the bunch because this ammo is what I use for hunting. Would hate to here click instead of bang with a deer in my sights but I'm not going to pull these down because of one bad primer I'll chance it :eek: If you find your bad primer post a close up pic of it see it looks similar to my failed primer maybe we'll learn something. What I don't know but I thought it was pretty neat seeing the closeups of the primers. I can even see the sealant holding the anvil in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 I'm hoping this just a one bad one out of the bunch because this ammo is what I use for hunting. I'd deem all those remaining loads as practice ammo, and start fresh with new loads for the hunt. <thumbsup> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 When I got the first failure to ignite , I also thought it was a fluke , but soon learned it wasn't. I know that's not what you wanted to hear , but 98's advice, makes good sense . I think when they were making primers when all the shortage was in full swing , that we as consumers of components , we got the seconds that didn't get to there loaded ammo , just a theory . I'm not sure , even on Marcos setting , my camera can get photo's that clear . Now my Wife's camera , maybe , I'll try it, if I find one of the primers . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planeflyer21 Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 I'd deem all those remaining loads as practice ammo, and start fresh with new loads for the hunt. <thumbsup> /\/\/\/\/\/\ Yup. Made some .357 loads that had a fairly high and dramatic squib rate…they would spark and fizzle, lots of smoke. Used them for students, telling them "If you notice anything unusual, stop shooting and let me know." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seasprite Posted March 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 Well I've been looking to develop an FTX load for this rifle maybe this will be the time to start since I can't trust my current loading with this lot of primers. I do find it strange though that I have been able to go through 500 of 1000 without a misfire oh well. I doubt I buy the Winchester primers again for one they seem to be smaller than other large rifle primers and loosen up in the pocket sooner than other brands of primers at least in the .308 but with the low pressure of the .30-30 I didn't think I was going to have to worry about primer pocket expansion so I figured these would be ok little did I know huh. Have you guy's noticed the same thing on size? or maybe it goes along with what survivalshop is saying just got the rejects from there ammo line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 I found one of the Remington's , its in a loaded 38 special & will pull the bullet,powder & de-prime . I went over all the ways I could have screwed the primers up , but I'm kinda picky about primers , I try not to touch them at all , period . I used to toss them out if they hit the bench or floor , well not any more , I have different levels of contamination, now a days , but still these primers are where all my primers are & right next to 20+ year old WW primers ,that have never failed . I find that when the primer pocket gets loose , changing primer brands to get a tighter fit , might or might not work . I use my RCBS primer pocket swaging tool to see how the pocket feels & if its loose , it goes in the scrap . I have noticed Commercial brass is an slight resistance fit, even on new brass. Milspec of course is a different matter , they are tight even after swaging them . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tripledeuce Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 (edited) I have a friend, that for most of his life in the Air Force (35 years) he spent in bomb disposal. He told me that the failure rate on gvt ammo was about 1- 10,000. Inevibality, the failures came from pp holes not pierced, or only partilly pierced. Next time you get a dud, empty the case, and usr a flashlight to look at the primer hole. Your primer, to me, looks only partially burnt. Respectfully Terry Just called my friend, he said the "failure" rate was 1 in 100,000. T. Edited March 6, 2014 by Tripledeuce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 Although this looks like it has some discoloration on the anvil , the primer compound is intact. No doubt in my mind the flash hole was clear. I have no problems with other primers in any firearm. Just to show it was hit , though de-priming it seems to make it look less of a hit . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
392heminut Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Made some .357 loads that had a fairly high and dramatic squib rate…they would spark and fizzle, lots of smoke. Used them for students, telling them "If you notice anything unusual, stop shooting and let me know." Good way to catch them flinching too! <laughs> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seasprite Posted March 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Although this looks like it has some discoloration on the anvil , the primer compound is intact. No doubt in my mind the flash hole was clear. I have no problems with other primers in any firearm. IMG_2375.JPG Looking at your pic the compound looks to be broken or cracked right below the right support leg for the anvil. If the compound is broken or cracked it won't receive the full amount of shock or pressure to trigger the detonation of the compound thus your dud. BUT what we don't know is did the firing pin strike cause this or not if the firing pin strike line up with the crack then it probably did and just some bad compound. I have a friend that works at Lake City ammo plant on the fire crew and he said you can temporarily deactivate the primers with 409 cleaner. Then once the compound is dry its active again. I have yet to try this so I don't know if it works or not. I do have an old tula primer that got put in the pocket sideways and deformed if I get a chance to pick up some 409 I would like to try his advice but I haven't done this yet so if you decide to try deactivate a primer take all the safety precautions you can. Why am I telling you this? glad you asked I was thinking if you could wet it in 409 and see if the crack would solidify and become usable again and would also confirm the crack was the problem. When dry stick it in a piece of brass and try to see if it would light. Can you tell I have to much time on my hands since I had my surgery :stfu2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seasprite Posted March 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 I have a friend, that for most of his life in the Air Force (35 years) he spent in bomb disposal. He told me that the failure rate on gvt ammo was about 1- 10,000. Inevibality, the failures came from pp holes not pierced, or only partilly pierced. Next time you get a dud, empty the case, and usr a flashlight to look at the primer hole. Your primer, to me, looks only partially burnt. Respectfully Terry Just called my friend, he said the "failure" rate was 1 in 100,000. T. You know Terry I was wondering the same thing but with the black sealant on there its hard to tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 (edited) The cracking of the primer compound could also of happened when de-priming it from the case. If you look how Primers are packaged ,being shipped & handled for innovatory , it wouldn't take much for some one to spill something on the package or even be around certain chemicals or gases for it to compromise there performance. These Primers are the first in over thirty years of re-loading , that I personally have had a problem with, so I don't think this is a wide spread problem . Luckily for us , re-loaders. I also thought the poster's primer looked to have burnt or partial ignition around the Anvil . Edited March 7, 2014 by survivalshop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibiwan Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 My only reload duds were the two that were missing the primer. I guess that's operator error. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planeflyer21 Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Or the dreaded upside-down primer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Armory Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 (edited) Or the dreaded upside-down primer.That's your QA problem ! I've had a half dozen duds , win spp and cci 41. Last year Winchester changed primer casing material and packaging. For my self defense loads and hunting loads I use Federal GMM or Federal Champion... They always go Boom. Winchester Compared to Federal Edited March 10, 2014 by Dane Armory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planeflyer21 Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 I worked with a dude stationed on one of the ships at Bikini Atoll nuclear tests. Him and another guy went through their cruise book and noted all the people who had died of cancer. Most of them, except those two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibiwan Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 Like these guys in Nevada too.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planeflyer21 Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 Yup. That dude said when they lit off the hydrogen bombs, the orders were to cover their closed eyes with their arm. When the bomb detonated, they could see their arm bones like when you hold a flashlight up to your hand. Said they lit off a couple of the big ones, mushroom cloud seeming to reach into outer space. Afterwards they detonated one "The same size as the one dropped on Hiroshima." Said it looked like a tiny puff of smoke on the horizon, nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seasprite Posted March 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 If you haven't seen it I recommend you watch Trinity and beyond. When I saw it, it was an eye opener for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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