guruofhotrod Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 While following up on the Shadow Ops BCG I ordered quite some time ago (and still waiting for) I came across this: http://shadowopsweaponry.com/products/278-308-caliber-762-x-51-bolt-carrier-group.aspx 8620 Carrier with a Carpenter 158 Bolt, Nickel Boron coated, with Notches/Serrations for the F/A on Aero and Palmetto type uppers - Nice but a bit Pricey, Hopefully their lead time doesn't get too far out - looks like they're accepting pre-orders and they will be "available" in 60 days Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StainTrain Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 While following up on the Shadow Ops BCG I ordered quite some time ago (and still waiting for) I came across this: http://shadowopsweaponry.com/products/278-308-caliber-762-x-51-bolt-carrier-group.aspx 8620 Carrier with a Carpenter 158 Bolt, Nickel Boron coated, with Notches/Serrations for the F/A on Aero and Palmetto type uppers - Nice but a bit Pricey, Hopefully their lead time doesn't get too far out - looks like they're accepting pre-orders and they will be "available" in 60 days I agree....Pricey. I have learned not to do pre-orders unless the BBB gives the company an A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasyEJL Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 hopefully everything else will start getting caught up in the next few weeks. The owner has moved up to Colorado (which is where the production facility is ) and has been beating it into shape so they're finally catching up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StainTrain Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 (edited) I hope so. When I saw the pre-order, it brought me back to the whole lower receiver saga. The pre order deal is what soured a lot of people on Shadow-ops...as well as Dennis lashing out on other forums when people started getting frustrated. I am of the opinion that you shouldn't use capital from pre-sales to acquire parts, but rather from investors or SBA type loans. This is just an observation, please do not take it as being disrespectful. Edited September 3, 2014 by StainTrain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasyEJL Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 No, I totally agree Stain. Part of it was other problems as well - the credit card company holding 2/3 of the funds for months, then the inability to actually get billet material, then literally the head machinist attempted to sabotage production as he planned to basically buy out the shop when it went into bankruptcy court and own it himself. There was tons of nonsense, but I totally agree that funding should have been searched for from investors much earlier. We still have a pile left of the original lowers to finish and ship, almost 2 years later, which is not acceptable (well unless you're rock river arms :D). But we've finally started turning the corner, at least from what I've been told. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasyEJL Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 just to give an example, when we asked the machinist to put together timelines for production of parts to explain the production timelines, the time for a single suppressor was something like 7 1/2 hours.... just the end cap was an hour, which is ludicrous. a full AR15 billet can be machined from a solid block in under 45 minutes.... His time on an ar15 lower was almost 2 hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planeflyer21 Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 That sounds ridiculously high for knurling a tube and machining that baffle pictured. Shibi...calling Shibi to the maching center. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasyEJL Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 That sounds ridiculously high for knurling a tube and machining that baffle pictured. Shibi...calling Shibi to the maching center.oh it is, the new machinist has cut time for everything by more than 50%, for some things as much as 70-80%. Sad really, the old machinist was to be given partial ownership, got a sign up bonus and was well paid. Then chose to try and torpedo the business so he could buy out its assets cheaply. What a wiener. Oh yeah, and he hired his friends and his mom to also work there, running machines or deburring or whatever. With the whole "I really need people I can trust to ramp up production". Then even when he had the billet material, it too him almost 4 months to go from his prototype (with having g code for it) to being able to produce 5 a day, on an automated pallet loading $200,000 mill.I swear, I may pop the guy in the jaw if I ever meet him. its just ridiculous.And none of that really is an excuse on the delays. The owner should have had more control of the business, and should have even if he was going to be largely remote spent 2 weeks every couple of months there, or a week a month, or something. It would have totally changed what was happening if he had just done that. But he got bogged down in customer service because money was tight with the credit card company holding so much and just dribbling it back out to us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibiwan Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 (edited) That sounds ridiculously high for knurling a tube and machining that baffle pictured. Shibi...calling Shibi to the maching center. Well, it's dependent on material. AR15 receivers are made of aluminum while suppressors are typically made of stainless steel at the bare minimum. Often, Inconel is used for the core/baffles for overall durability. Comparing aluminum and inconel, aluminum is like butter. Nickel-based alloys like inconel are a PITA to machine. That said, I do have some suppressors in the works.... :D 2 hours on a lower - that's too high. 45 minutes is about right, perhaps faster if you know how to optimize programs. Edited September 4, 2014 by shibiwan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibiwan Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 oh it is, the new machinist has cut time for everything by more than 50%, for some things as much as 70-80%. That sounds much better. Sounds like the older guy didn't know what he was doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasyEJL Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 That sounds much better. Sounds like the older guy didn't know what he was doing.nah, it was purposeful, he wanted to see the company go broke.On these supressors, the end cap + tube are aluminum with the core steel. that end cap probably shouldn't take 15 minutes to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibiwan Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 (edited) nah, it was purposeful, he wanted to see the company go broke. On these supressors, the end cap + tube are aluminum with the core steel. that end cap probably shouldn't take 15 minutes to do. In that case, yeah! 3-5 minutes max if the end cap is aluminum. Edited September 4, 2014 by shibiwan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasyEJL Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 its so irritating, he was treated so spectacularly well, and then purposefully tried to screw the owner. I can't understand people who think that way. Hopefully karma catches up with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibiwan Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 its so irritating, he was treated so spectacularly well, and then purposefully tried to screw the owner. I can't understand people who think that way. Hopefully karma catches up with him. Hard to find good employees. I let all of mine go and run everything myself these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planeflyer21 Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 (edited) I can't understand people who think that way. Hopefully karma catches up with him. If they canned him it already is catching up to him. Here the manufacturing community is small and when people get a bad rep, it gets around. Edited September 4, 2014 by planeflyer21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasyEJL Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 If they canned him it already is catching up to him. Here the manufacturing community is small and when people get a bad rep, it gets around.Actually he walked out Dec 31st, along with the friends and his mom, leaving the shop short staffed by 4 or 5 people with no notice. It was a blessing really, it was after that when we started to discover the reality of his nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 Well , good luck in getting back on track , I like what I have purchased from Shadow Ops. & I will be needing more parts soon . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StainTrain Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 Which still has me wondering why go the preorder route. I hope they turn it around but when word gets out about SOW doing preorders again you can expect negative press in the gun world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasyEJL Posted September 5, 2014 Report Share Posted September 5, 2014 Well, our basic plan is that once we get all caught up to current, we'll start offering something along the lines of "If your order doesn't ship within a week, you get refunded x% of the purchase price" with some disclaimers about custom engraving and it being under a week from when you get your FFL's license / NFA forms in. We figure that will both force us to stay on top of it and not let this happen again, and also give back confidence to buyers. We're looking at anywhere from 10-50%, just haven't really decided for sure yet. And similarly on any production pre-orders like we're planning on doing 1911s, the specific item would state what its time frame was and have a similar refund but still get item policy. We learned from the horrors of the last machinist not to put stuff up for sale till we're machining at full production rates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guruofhotrod Posted September 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2014 @EasyEJL, Thanks for the history of how Shadow Ops got into the mess they're in, it certainly puts some perspective on the long lead time on my BCG order, I do have a question about this new BCG - was it designed to compliment the new upper that Shadow Ops has listed, the version that has the F/A provision? I wish you guys the best in getting production straightened out and look forward to the new products being in stock and ready for immediate delivery! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasyEJL Posted September 5, 2014 Report Share Posted September 5, 2014 Actually the new BCG was designed first, as a lot of the dpms 308 uppers have FA on it, mine does Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guruofhotrod Posted September 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2014 (edited) Let me clarify, most DPMS uppers that used F/A used a design that located the F/A plunger in the brass deflector and had a single "step" on the bolt carrier for the F/A Pawl to work against, Recently some manufacturers (Aero, Palmetto) have adopted a configuration identical to the AR15 or Armalite AR10 with the plunger located back closer to the charging handle and the bolt carrier having a series of serrations/notches along the side for the F/A Pawl to engage with. I'm curious whether the new Shadow Ops 308 upper with the F/A is of the newer style that is like the AR15? Edited September 6, 2014 by guruofhotrod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasyEJL Posted September 5, 2014 Report Share Posted September 5, 2014 Hmm. I haven't actually seen the 308 upper in person, only the engineering drawings, and I can't remember. I'll check though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unforgiven Posted September 6, 2014 Report Share Posted September 6, 2014 That's ashame how one guy can wobble a company.Good luck getting the train back on the tracks. <thumbsup> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StainTrain Posted September 6, 2014 Report Share Posted September 6, 2014 (edited) In my limited exposure, I don't think it was just one guy. There was a guy on the guild that worked for them didn't do much to help their reputation. I do want to add that the BCGs that we finally got actually run great and have not provided one second of trouble. I think the company is capable of producing and acquiring decent products. I am sore that they bungled the lower receiver deal they had going, then came out with the deal coin thing to buy time or whatever reason. It sounds like they are trying to get their house in order and when/if they do, I will consider purchasing from them. Edited September 6, 2014 by StainTrain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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