dpete

@BrianK ARTrooper and I are both in Wisconsin. Thankfully it is still a free state compared to some. If you can legally possess a SBR or a supressor you can legally hunt with it. Only requirement is that the rifle be larger than .22 caliber. The deer I spoke of were taken with an 8" barrelled SBR with my form 1 can attached.

Back to bullets. All three of these came out of a Blackout. The two smaller ones were shot at 150 yards into gallon milk jugs of water. The third is the Maker I recovered from a deer, head on shot into chest and lodged in the stomach. L to R 130gr Speer Varmint 110 gr Barnes Tac-Tx 200 grain Maker

Comparing an archery broadhead to an expanding subsonic bullet is apples to oranges. An archery broadhead has 3 sometimes 4 razor sharp edges that follow a similarly razor sharp tip into an animal. The tip slices in then the blades continue the slicing as the entire arrow slowly rotates (arrow vanes produce a spin in flight). The resulting cut areas can be up to 2 inches across with an expandable head. The exit hole is also a gaping triangle with sharp clean edges An expanding sub even though its travelling roughly 3 times faster than the broadhead, plows into the deer (I've heard it, it sounds like someone slapping two leather mitts together). Once it hits, the petals open but unlike a broadhead there is no tip to lead the way and begin cutting and no mass of arrow pushing it from behind. It begins to tumble and the edges of the petals tear their way through. A clean cut from a razor blade will bleed a whole lot more than a slip of a hacksaw blade. One does more damage faster than the other. A blood trail is a matter of getting as much blood out of the body as possible in the shortest amount of time. Archery broadheads are razor sharp to do that as efficiently as possible at slow speeds. Expanding subs open in order to increase the bleeding potential over one that would pencil through. They still aren't as efficient a cutter compared to a broadhead and even though they may cut better than a supersonic bullet the collateral damage from hydrostatic shock isn't there to blow a giant exit hole open

I can't really speak to "eating all the way to the hole" because I haven't really looked too hard for the holes. But yes there is far less collateral damage to meat with the subs. Its also true that a non expanding bullet would be just as deadly in a CNS shot situation if placed perfectly. But most of the time perfect shots are hard to come by, you take what you can get. Plenty of people used 220gr Sierra Match Kings as sub hunting bullets before specialized expanding sub bullets were developed. If they hit bone the thought was that they would tumble on through for the kill. They did that, but if they didn't hit something to cause the tumble they would pencil right on through leaving just the 30 caliber hole in anything it touched. The deer would be dead if it was a vital hit, but it would be dead in the next township without leaving any trace of where it went. Put one of these Makers into a chest cavity and its going down a whole lot faster. The last deer I shot with one of these looked as if someone pushed a spinning 3/4" holesaw bit through the top of its heart. That was after it went through the spine and neck from the top down

@ARTrooperProbably the biggest factor in the lack of bloodtrail is the speed of the bullet. Your typical 30-06 bullet is 3/4 or slightly more in weight compared to a subsonic, but its going over twice as fast in the supersonic range. That mass plus the speed makes for a huge energy dump into the target. The energy dump is what makes the huge wound channel, turns the internals to mush and blows the huge exit hole out the other side. A subsonic bullet has the mass but not the speed. There is no comparable hydrostatic shock from a sub like you see when a normal rifle bullet hits ballistic gell. The huge wound cavity just isn't there. The Makers are designed to open at low speeds to increase wounding potential, but they shred through flesh and organs rather than slicing like a razor sharp broadhead, or blasting through like a super. The other factor I am sure is shot angle. With a tree stand shot you have a high entry and low exit. ( I sub hunt out of my bow stands and shots are 20-30 yards) That low exit makes a good drain hole for blood out of the chest, but the blood inside the chest has to get up to the level of the hole before it comes out. If a deer doesn't drop almost immediately it goes into overdrive and takes off. A double lung shot with a sub punches holes in them, but how far can a deer run barely breathing on pure adreniline before the blood in its chest gets to the exit hole? Damn far with no blood trail to show for it. (The one that went 100 yards)

@unforgiven Wisconsin has a hunting Mentor program. https://dnr.wisconsin.gov/Education/OutdoorSkills/mentor

Something I thought of after making the last post. In my experience and others with subsonic hunting, you don't end up tracking a deer using its bloodtrail, you look for a dead deer because there isn't any bloodtrail. A sub doesn't have any hydrostatic shock that pulverizes internals like a super. The Maker expanding bullets peel open beautifully but they then tear through rather than slicing through like a broadhead. The best shot with a sub is CNS, head or neck. The 4 deer I've taken with Makers, all shots 30 yards or less. Head on with head up. Hit in chest and bullet recovered in the stomach, went 30 yards. Ground blind. Broadside through both lungs, ran 100 yards in snow. Ground blind. Broadside through at least one lung and possibly heart, went 20 yards. Tree stand, shot was downward angle. Head on with head down. Hit in the top of the neck in front of shoulder, bullet blew out the top of the heart. DRT. Ground blind None of them left any bloodtrail at all. The last one had a pond under it but that was from having the heart taken out and a drain hole at the bottom of the chest. Short shots in the neck or head for me from now on, DRT and no tracking is good for my bad knee.

As long as you realize hunting with subs is pretty much like archery with a firearm. I have all the confidence in the world of hitting what I am aiming at with a 200 grain Maker if its 50 yards and in (4 deer so far at about 30 yards). At a target they will shoot 1" groups at 50 yards, but stretch that to 100 yards and that group opens up to over twice that and drops 6". Same 8" barrel with supressor and 110gr Barnes is pretty much dead nuts at 50 and 100 yards. Same impact point but bullet rising at 50 and dropping through the same point at 100. For your son on his first hunts I would load up some 110 grain Tac-TX supres to let him gain some confidence on hitting what he is aiming at. Recoil with or without a supressor is minimal.

^^This.

@Traveler These guys are serious! @98Z5V is a fellow Vet and is probably responsible for getting more 308 ARs fixed than all the companies that make them combined. This place isn't your run of the mill gun forum. Its more like the Rec. room at the back of the house where buddies go after a huge meal to shoot the shiit, drink beer, and burp, while we talk about anything gun related.

Mine is actually overkill on my Blackouts. I got my taxstamp and built it from components before the ATF went apeshiit over companies selling the parts to do it. I intended it to go on my 308 AR so I made it 10" long to muzzle that thing. I never did mount it on the 308 but the over building sure doesn't hurt the quietness for the Blackouts. The whole description is here.

Those Ruger Ranches are fun little rifles. I've got two, a 300 BLK and a 6.5 Grendel. The BLK is BB gun quiet through my supressor using subs.

I think @unforgiven was talking about Britney Griner.

That's probably a good assumption.

Here is the new form for your viewing pleasure. Straight from the atf website. All in atf legalese gobbledygook. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473-part-1-firearms-transaction-record-over-counter-atf-form-53009/download

Nope, I just looked at the new form. I'm still legal! Yay!

Updated 12/9/22 What I have on hand. Pistol Calibers @ $2.00/ lb Caliber lbs 357 Mag 1/2 38 Special 2 45 ACP (large primer) 5 3/4 45 ACP (small primer) 6 1/4 Rifle Calibers @ $ .25 each Caliber # of pieces 224 Valkyrie 2 260 1 300 Win Mag 10 308 Win Match (Hornady) 6 spoken for 308 Win (LC headstamp) 157 spoken for 35 Rem 6 45-70 2 spoken for 450 Bushmaster 46 450 Marlin 4 6.5 Creedmoor 125 7mm-08 15 7mm-08 (nickel) 9 7mm Mag 18 7mm Mag (nickel) 10 7.62X39 (boxer primed brass) 43 Rifle Calibers @ $ .10 each Caliber # of pieces 300 BLK (factory brass) 29 Pistol Calibers @ $ .10 each Caliber # of pieces 10 mm (Large Primer) 854 10 mm (small primer) 232 357 Sig 88 38 Super 120 38 super (nickel) 32 44 Mag 58 45 Colt 3

Just putting this out here. https://gatdaily.com/no-serial-number-no-problem/?utm_source=GATdaily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=12_9

Yep, for subsonic functioning in an AR, 300 BLK is the way to go. I just took my 4th deer with my 200 gr Maker handload. As the shooter I can't tell how quiet the gun is because of the action slamming back and forth next to my ear. 970-980 fps is the speed range mine likes with 3 different bullet weights. The Ruger American Ranch is my mousefart rifle with the same supressor, no action clanking around.

Definitely not an Aero. But it does appear to have a Diamondback BCG in it. Everything on Diamondback's site has the AR10 slant back. Note the little A above the forward assist and the position of the forward assist itself.

Hey! Most of us are old, some older than others, and a lot of us seem to have common aches and pains in joints and other places that got abused in the past. But at least we all can point a gun and shoot straight. I hope.

I've got a lightly used AR15 sized Mech Armor TacOps I can part with.

Set up properly, the rear of the scope should be just in front of the latch and handle of the charge handle. Your nose should almost touch the rear of the charge handle when sighting.

The soft points do work in an AR but you have to be able to accept that the tips get dinged by the feedramps. Being soft points they are hunting rounds. If your hunting distances are short, say 100 yards and in, use them. My handload sp bullets were about moa accurate at 100 yards.

I hope I make it to Medicare before I have to get the knee operated on.