Debate

[GreyGoose]

I don't need no stink'in pistons anyhow...

[survivalshop]

Lab coat is a nice touch . LOL

[mineralman55]

This is from the Bayoushooter.com forum. I don't personally know the author, but he covers a lot of ground regarding the DI versus piston usage. The entire thread is here:

http://www.bayoushooter.com/forums/showthread.php?146543-Range-Rental-Information-on-AR-Rifles 

Range Rental Information on AR Rifles.

Here’s a little background on what we do. We operate a high-volume range in Las Vegas. You can’t bring your personal weapons in and rent lanes for an hour. Customers use only our weapons and our ammo. We only use factory new ammo and zero reloads. We keep maintenance logs on EACH and every weapon to include cleanings, parts replaced and any other issues that need to be noted. We shoot approximately 400,000 rounds down range each month and the numbers have actually gone up a bit for May and June. Tourists get to shoot everything from the Type 99 Arisaka, M1 Garand C and D’s, MP-44’s, G43’s, M2HB’s, 240’s, 249’s, MG42’s, MG34’s, M-14’s, Luger’s, Swedish K’s, M203’s, M79’s and you get the point. Some weapons are very rare historical weapons that rarely come out of collections or museums and see the light of day.

Here are some “facts” about OUR experience with M4’s on the range.

– Some of our M4’s have well over 200,000 rounds down range. Barrels have been replaced, gas tubes have been replaced, BCG’s have been replaced but what sets it apart from the AK47’s is that upper and lower receivers continue to function. AK’s get to about the 100,000+ round count and rails on the receiver will start to crack. It’s an easy fix with tig welding but they crack. We have yet to lose an upper or lower receiver from cracking.

– We get about 20,000 rounds out of bolts before we start experiencing issues. The headspace gauge will start getting closing on NO-GO but not close on field. We will lose a lug on the bolt. The bolt will start skipping over rounds in the magazine and fail to insert a round. We use LMT and Daniel Defense bolts and some will actually go longer but at about 20,000 rounds is when we will start to see issues appear.

– Gas tubes will erode away at the FSB after 12+ months

– Charging handles will “stretch” allowing the locking lever and spring to fly out

– Hammer pins and disconnectors on the 8.5″ full-auto’s will break after approximately 4,000-5,000 rounds regardless of the buffer weight

– We have yet to lose a single flash hider as compared to muzzle brakes on an AK-47. The muzzle brakes will literally split in half, looking a like bird with his beak open and go flying down range.

– USGI mags have outlasted all of the other brands. We use UGSI (Brownell’s with tan follower) and on a mag for mag basis, they have outlasted Pmags and a few of the other mags that we get from mfg’s with new weapons. We don’t have to worry about various generations with different weapons like the MR556, SCAR, F2000, Tavor or a couple of others that use AR15/M4 magazines.

– Cleaning bolts and carriers is such a pain in the ass as compared to our AK’s, G36’s, SCAR’s, ACR’s and most other platforms. We throw them in the ultrasonic cleaner filled with Simple Green (EPA, OSHA and disposal concerns for us) and they never fully remove the carbon from the bolts. The armorers spend so much time cleaning them and keeping all the parts together as compared to most other platforms.

– The only piston system to last on the range so far is the HK416 and TD415 system. Every other systems we have tried has failed in one way or another. I won’t say who’s broke or how they broke so PLEASE don’t ask. Each mfg has their own system for cleaning intervals and we may not follow their way. We have a way of cleaning and keeping records that suits our needs because of so much use.

– There is company that has an AR system that has some “parts don’t need lubrication” and that failed before the end of the first day. I don’t think some mfg’s understand that people REALLY use their weapons and when you’re rocking full-auto all day they NEED lubrication. My armorers and RSO’s were laughing when it seized up because we knew there was NO way it would last on our range.

– The parts that we see break more often are the bolt cam, bolt lugs shearing off, firing pins and gas keys shearing off the bolt carrier.

Some of the things that I really like about his observations are some of the truisms, that despite all the media and shooting industry hype, old truths just don’t go away. Such as his comments about USGI magazines being much more consistently reliable than anything else, or about standard AR gas systems being almost preferable to the piston operated ones, and then that even then the 416s were outperforming all other piston guns. I also appreciate him calling out some companies by name and saying if they were good or bad. I get it, he’s got to have some anonymity, but this is what people want and need, legitimate information on rifles they don’t know about. Another thing we have to realize here, is that he’s talking about insanely high round counts, far more than anybody probably reading this and to include myself, isn’t ever going to even see in their lifetimes with a single rifle. Regardless, still really interesting.

He’s got this tidbit on barrels and cleaning-

We have to put at least 100,000 rounds down range with M4’s each month and the weapons will stop cycling if we don’t clean the carbon off. We have maintenance schedules for each weapon and if an M4 (or any other weapon for that matter) gets overlooked, it has issues. Each weapon system has a time frame for cleaning from the experiences we see each day. Uzi’s can go on for awhile but MP5-SD’s and other suppressed weapons need cleaning VERY often.

As for FN barrels, I just recently purchased twenty of the complete PSA 12.5″ and 10.5″ uppers to test them out. So far they have functioned properly like the Daniel Defense and LMT’s and have had zero issues. They don’t have a huge amount of rounds through them but no issues of jamming have been reported. That’s a good thing in our business because our customers come for the experience and having a weapon that jams is a deal-killer

And about lubrication companies, in which he mentions they like a certain kind of lube because it doesn’t get on customers clothes. In their case, sure, it works and if that is what they want to achieve, more power to them. But as for those who use ARs in their daily professions, I don’t think getting CLP on a uniform or clothing is something that is looked at. Nonetheless-

We’ve had many companies send us samples and we’ve had sales rep’s show up telling us how much better their products is than others. We even had a sales rep actually eat some of his product to demonstrate its safety to us (if my armorers couldn’t tell the difference between lube and gum/dip and accidentally ate some, I don’t think they would be working for me). Some require a whole protocol in order to use it properly and after following the protocol, there was no notable difference that WE noticed as I am not saying their claims weren’t true.

All of the lubes we have ever used worked as long as we continued to lube the weapons. Some lubes lasted longer than others but again… they ALL worked as advertised. My biggest concern is making sure it’s safe for my employees and there are no issues with EPA, OSHA and disposal of the rags with the residue. Slip2000 fit our business model perfectly.

Up until about three weeks ago, the main lube we were using was Slip 2000 and the grease was also made by Slip2000. We had a rep at a local country festival give one of my managers a case of Lucas Gun Oil. The armorers asked if we could use it and I told them to get the MSDS’s for it and make sure the service company didn’t have an issue with cleaning the rags with it. They didn’t and we tried it out. My RSO’s immediately noticed that it wasn’t spraying any “mist” after being lubed. That is huge for use because so many people come dressed really nice (on their way to a dinner or show after) and they could actually put more lube in the gun and keep the weapons “wet” longer. Slip2000 did the least amount of “misting” after lube but the Lucas does even better. My RSO’s like it because there is less chance of getting lube on a customer’s clothes and better chance of getting tipped.

We continue to use the Slip2000 grease on all of the other heavy weapons like the MG42’s, M60’s, 240’s, etc.

The only weapons to get their own special lube are the M134 miniguns. We only use TW-25 on all of our M134’s.

And about shorter barrels-

Throat erosion is significantly higher on the shorter weapons but our ONLY concern for accuracy is that the bullet doesn’t keyhole. One of the armorers mentioned to me at one point we should consider swapping out the barrels because of throat erosion but when I pointed out to him that we are shooting at 10 yards and we adjust the Eotech to match the point of impact so barrel erosion is not much of concern for us.

The shorties are also the same units that erode the gas tubes. We haven’t lost a 16″ or 20″ barrels gas tube before the barrel itself failed from keyholing.

Also, the gas port holes erode away much faster on the shorties.

[Sisco]

Good stuff M55. What he says about AK's wearing out quicker makes sense. Modular construction like on an AR lets you replace worn out stuff easier. With an AK you don't necessairily have that luxury, plus the AK directs more stress to the frame without buffering. Also interesting what he says about pistons systems. Guess there is a reason the HK 416 has a Special operations following.

And develop a close personal relationship with your lubricant. Yes I am still talking about firearms.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Sisco

[survivalshop]

 I was just looking at Lucas lubricant , it was on sale somewhere , interesting reading . he probably won't say about the piston guns , because they may support the range in some way , maybe shooting competitions .

[98Z5V]

I've seen it on here a few times and it's been weighing heavy on my mind after I read a few comments lately.

 

So I think it's time to open that can of worms again and see where it goes.... BUT here's the catch.

 

If you are going to make a point, make it a valid point, have something to back it up as proof also. 

 

There will be no he said she said BS. 

 

If this gets off topic, I will have it deleted. 

The man had a mission, and he stated it clearly.  "If you are going to make a point, make it a valid point, have something to back it up as proof also."

'Nuff said.

There's ZERO need to see any fucking GLOCK MELTDOWNS in this thread, because it doesn't have a single fucking thing to do with what he asked.  ZERO fucks given about that bullshiit.

Cut the bullshiit in this thread.  Stick to his points, make them, and be fucking done. Otherwise, get the fuk outta the thread.

Edited September 10, 2015 by 98Z5V

[GreyGoose]

Got it Tom.

Its sort of like how its totally fu*king uncalled for and unacceptable obscene behavior for someone to go off half cocked and act like a complete a$$hole just because they don't like the way a thread went.

Maybe spend less time pounding your chest in public and go take a Dale Carnegie class for fu*k sakes.

Edited September 10, 2015 by GreyGoose

[98Z5V]

Got it Tom.

Its sort of like how its totally fu*king uncalled for and unacceptable obscene behavior for someone to go off half cocked and act like a complete a$$hole just because they don't like the way a thread went.

That's what I do, and it's COMPLETELY called for - I find bullshiit like you've given, and I call it.  It's not half-cocked, either, but I am a complete a$shole - you've been brewing it for quite awhile, and you got called on it.  Sucks. For you.

Sorry, Pat - I hope you take this out of your thread - but I also hope you leave it in. 

[98Z5V]

I'm totally down for a steam powered AR. 

See this thead:

http://forum.308ar.com/topic/11846-steampunk-ar15-for-blue109/

[SHOOTER13]

Awesome read...thanks !!

[bubbas4570]

All BS aside, there is some seriously important information contained within this thread for those who are concerned about this type of discussion.

 

How about making this one a sticky in the Black Rifle section?  i should have suggeted this when I first read the thread.