Texas high school shooting

[Hotwrench]

Oh I almost forgot, didnt the latest idiot use a revolver?

[Hotwrench]

2 hours ago, jtallen83 said:

Getting something like this passed  as written has the same chance as repealing the NFA. So why not work on something that doesn’t add more buearacratic control but removes the control.  

For me anything that relies on government being fair and honest is dangerous. Any further registration/licensing is a bad idea and violates the constitution.

Thank you, good clear thinking. We may not have "the" solution but at least we won't make things worse.

[98Z5V]

Just now, Hotwrench said:

First : I am from the government and I am here to help.

Second: Now that you have your semi auto registered, how about your pump and lever action, now your revolvers and bolt actions........heres a few bucks turn them all in. Compromising only works when both sides give some, so far it has been totally one sided. Cite an example where we got anything in return for what we gave up.

Third : Why keep blaming the inanimate object?

He may have a point about every record being available on the internet but lets try keeping our oath to uphold the Constitution. Lets remember due process. The constitution has everything covered,  follow it. Shall not infringe, pretty clear language, get rid of the infringements that are already on the books and punish the law breakers, not publicize their exploits. Unpass a bunch of useless  laws, even law enforcement has a difficult time staying legal due to ambiguous and contradictory laws.

Above all lets remember millions of Americans didn't hurt anyone today, don't  punish them. Don't put them closer to confiscation with yet another list

I can see that you want to "do something " and I applaud that you are trying, however giving the current crop of mostly self serving politicians more power is going to backfire. Don't forget that  gun rights have not advanced even under the current administration, even if he claims to be a staunch 2A supporter.

Finally, as Jerry Garcia said, "when you pick the lesser of two evils, you still pick evil." How about we start over and actually drain the swamp and start over with fresh water?

Cite how many suppressors and SBRs have been blatantly confiscated.  Show me the numbers, from the people that went through this exact same process - and had their Suppressors and SBRs just randomly confiscated.  Numbers.  Not conjecture.

That's a LibTard problem.  Go deal with them.  Prove your point to them.  Not here.  That's not an argument or discussion point for here. We already get it. Now get out and prove it, publicly. Tell me your training points in how to accomplish this task - show me your lesson plan.  Expound on your ideas on how to accomplish this - instead of blindly pushing the question, with zero solutions.  Be a part of the solution - or you're part of the problem...

LIST OUT your plan on how to accomplish that.  If you don't have a plan, then it's just rhetoric.  You're just talkin', like THEY'RE just talkin'...  What is your plan?  You already said it, so it's in your mind...  now think about how to accomplish it. Or not.  And just kep talking about it, and screaming about inches...

You do something now, or the next Dem Pres is going to have you looking for a better place in Australia - or firing a wrist rocket.

 

[98Z5V]

Just now, Hotwrench said:

Thank you, good clear thinking. We may not have "the" solution but at least we won't make things worse.

Make it so. What's YOUR PLAN, man?...  HOW do you accomplish this?...

[98Z5V]

9 minutes ago, Hotwrench said:

Oh I almost forgot, didnt the latest idiot use a revolver?

They dont give a shiit about revolvers.  They only want "Assault Weapons."  Right now.

Get out there and protect your assault weapons, with something more than rhetoric, and something more substantial than what's in the "Semi-Auto License" link.

Show me SOMETHING that's more substantial than that.  Anything.  Shiit, anything from you would be better than the rhetoric...

THINK, man, THINK.  Prove some damn points here, and post a plan... Come up with a BETTER plan than what we're talking about, and I'll listen to you.  Right now, you're just yelling about routine things that you can't prove, pass, or legitimize.

[98Z5V]

Let me give you a GLIMPSE of what THEY are thinking... while you yell about a repeal, and inches. Here's THEIR insight...

https://ylpr.yale.edu/inter_alia/restricted-firearms-license-proposal-preserve-second-amendment-rights-and-reduce-gun

They're so far ahead of you, it's not even funny.  THAT is the plan from Yale University.

You better get onboard with some serious solutions, or just yell about repeal and inches.  While your rights go away.

You wanna bitch about compromise...  There's not gonna BE any compromise with the next Dem Pres.  Zero.  Hedge your bets, think otherwise...  whatever.

You and I are gonna be felons, soon.  For NOTHING.  We were legal last election, now we're felons. Know why?  The 2A couldn't get their shiit together, and they got whipped by liberals that don't know a damn thing.

THAT is reality, coming soon to a theater near you. Much sooner than you think.

Edited May 26, 2018 by 98Z5V

[98Z5V]

59 minutes ago, Hotwrench said:

Oh I almost forgot, didnt the latest idiot use a revolver?

You wanna get in here and talk SO MUCH shiit about what I'm saying- and you never posted in the thread I'm talking about.  AT ALL.

You were a member here when it came up.  You said  NOT SHIIT in that thread. Nothing.

But, NOW you wanna address it. I suggest you go back and research what you think you're talking about- because you have not a clue.

You're just blindly slingly your rhetoric, with zero solutions.  Get on board with something, or you're going to be left behind... and bitching about it when you're left behind...

Go check the history, here, that you're bitching about:

 

 

[jtallen83]

7 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

LIST OUT your plan on how to accomplish that.

1. Educate! Take the time to explain the constitution to everyone that will listen, even those that don't appear to listen. Buy more LaRue products, Mark supplies several copies of the constitution with every purchase, spread these around. Take the time to explain the purpose and history of the 2A as the founding fathers wrote it and how the NFA violates this. Remind people and politicians of history, remind them of how gun control has worked throughout the ages, remind them why Lexington and Concord happened.

2. Organize the vote, get your friends and family to the ballot box. Make phone calls and give people rides, be annoying as hell if needed just get them out to vote!

3. Along with your newly educated voters seek out your politicians and lobby the case for repeal. Show them the numbers, show them the facts. And most importantly don't be a one trick pony that can be swayed with reassuring words on your favorite issue, get involved and stay involved in the political landscape. This can be painful and disheartening at times but only when they realize we are not going away will they even consider our proposal.

4. Be consistent. Getting government back to its roots means smaller government so don't call for getting government out of the second on one hand while demanding they pass more regulation to fix another problem on the other hand. Don't forget that government is incompetent in nearly everything they do, they simply cannot fix problems, only we can do that.

5. Take people shooting! This may be the most effective way to boost our cause. Once people spend time at the range they are more open to the shooting culture. Concentrate on the youngsters, if this situation is going to change then they will be the ones that make it happen.

I realize this is not some detailed legislative proposal, I don't believe that route will work, this is not a legislative problem as much as it's a cultural problem. Passing more laws on guns will only serve as an opportunity for the establishment to add more backdoors to removing our Liberties, just look at their track record. There is no easy quick solution, it will take decades of hard dedicated work to return this country to its roots. The forces of evil have been chipping away at our culture for a long time, we cannot fix it overnight. They have the power and the money, they have the ear of the sheeple, at this point the second and God are all that stands  between us and the establishment enacting a tyrannical rule. My hope is this method can return true Liberty to this great nation, sadly I am very skeptical it can be accomplished this way as we are so far down the road of a godless one world government. I will continue to promote this approach as I fill out range cards..............

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/7-8/form.gif

and how to use them;

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/23-34/Appe.htm

Edited May 26, 2018 by jtallen83

[Hotwrench]

jtallen83, I have done the things that are on your list . I encourage others to do the same.  They are the ways law abiding citizens can affect change

I have in the past attended the Virginia House Committee and sub Committee meetings that pertained to gun rights and spoke when I thought I could be helpful.  The main things that I learned in these meetings are that the anti crowd yells a lot and there are unintended consequences generated by every new piece of legislation.  Some of these unintended consequences really are intended but hidden. I can not imagine any gun registration scheme that won't lead to confiscation. There is a good reason that it is currently illegal for the Federal Government to keep a list of gun owners and what they own.  I can't say they follow the law, but it is in place for a reason.  There are also good reasons the founders wrote the Constitution the way they did, they had seen first hand the results of loosing Liberty to a tyrant.  I am told that the founders and their supporters only made up 3% of the colonial population.  With that small citizen group they built a nation we can be proud of, that is if we follow their guidelines.

Your comments are to the point and helpful. and like you said this is a cultural problem and unlikely to be solved by government action.  "My hope is this method can return true Liberty to this great nation, sadly I am very skeptical it can be accomplished this way as we are so far down the road of a godless one world government. I will continue to promote this approach as I fill out range cards.............."

98, I hear that you believe you have a good idea.  I will never willingly give up my Liberty in the manner you ascribe to.  I don't have a need for an sbr or full auto and can only see that plan leading to more opportunities for bad laws to be written just to gain range toys, Liberty is too serious a matter.  I do not claim to have the answers, I have lived long enough to know a bad idea when I hear it.  At the risk of being called down why don't you ask Magwa how trusting the government to keep its word has worked out. 

By the way I read your quoted article but not this last set of posts, I hear yelling, yelling in my experience means you are out of ideas.  Try jtallen83's approach, quite discussion, Airborne leads the way!

[98Z5V]

2 hours ago, Hotwrench said:

 I don't have a need for an sbr or full auto and can only see that plan leading to more opportunities for bad laws to be written just to gain range toys, Liberty is too serious a matter.

So, because you don't have a need for it, it's a bad idea.  You don't need the benefits in that plan - and it's not my plan, someone else wrote that -so, you don't need those giant benefits in there that would help a very large population in the 2A crowd - so it's not a valid plan.  Got it.

Because you don't need those items, and think they're simply "range toys," then you can't see the benefit of not going through the Tax Stamp process for suppressors and SBRs/SBSs...

Full auto, also, was never, ever included in that plan for "Semi-Auto License."  Ever.

Edited May 26, 2018 by 98Z5V

[Hotwrench]

Sorry I misspoke. I don't need more government.

See jtallen83's item 4.

"4. Be consistent. Getting government back to its roots means smaller government so don't call for getting government out of the second on one hand while demanding they pass more regulation to fix another problem on the other hand. Don't forget that government is incompetent in nearly everything they do, they simply cannot fix problems, only we can do that.

[98Z5V]

2 hours ago, Hotwrench said:

Sorry I misspoke. I don't need more government.

 

Sorry, I misspoke, too - spell out your plan to defeat what's gonna happen with the next Dem President.  Just spell it out. List your plan on how to defeat what they WILL do to our gun rights.  

[Hotwrench]

98, Let's start over.

I looked back at this thread, I didn't spot anyone saying your plan would be a good idea. I saw several that disagreed, none as in your face as my comments.  I guess that is why I drew your fire.

I do not believe this country should ever agree to gun registration of any type . We remain a country that is divided almost 50/50 on this and many more issues.  The only possible solution that I see lies with our community educating and communicating to the other side.  I doubt we will achieve a large change, the other side is just as entrenched as we are. The goal is to not let the situation get any more one sided.  Set an example for the antis.  Show them a responsible gun  owner, do more than talk, be responsible. This is not aimed at you.

Just because I don't think your plan is a good one doesn't mean I have a better one than the one jtallen83 put forward.  This is as he said is a social problem.  The Texas shooter should not have had access to his Dad's guns, I have reviewed my storage procedures as I am hoping everyone here has.  The problem would be more reliably solved with education than legislation.  jtallen83's plan isn't sexy, it doesn't offer instant gratification, but it does offer a roadmap.  If a majority of the country votes in a Democrat for President there will still be the Constitution  and a whole lot of common citizens that are willing to uphold the oath they took.

As jtallen83 said "I will continue to promote this approach as I fill out range cards.............."

As an addition to what jtallen83 offered look at this web site for inexpensive copies of the Constitution.  https://nccs.net/collections/pocket-constitution

[98Z5V]

3 hours ago, Hotwrench said:

I do not believe this country should ever agree to gun registration of any type .

This right here is what leads me to believe that you didn't even read the linked article, that was originally posted by another member here. 

You keep saying "my plan" "my plan." It's not MY plan.  Any arguments you have against it are moot - until you read it. 

So, hit the link, read the article... 

Edited May 27, 2018 by 98Z5V

[Hotwrench]

Like I said, I read it under your post. If that isn't enough to suit you go pound sand. You are the one pushing this idiocy and you are a one girl, girl scout troop on this issue, no one else seems to agree.

 

[98Z5V]

1 minute ago, Hotwrench said:

Like I said, I read it under your post. If that isn't enough to suit you go pound sand. You are the one pushing this idiocy and you are a one girl, girl scout troop on this issue, no one else seems to agree.

 

Yeah, so you read it,right?  Then why do you think it's "registration?..."

Because you didn't read it.

[NTXshooter]

18 hours ago, jtallen83 said:

1. Educate! Take the time to explain the constitution to everyone that will listen, even those that don't appear to listen. Buy more LaRue products, Mark supplies several copies of the constitution with every purchase, spread these around. Take the time to explain the purpose and history of the 2A as the founding fathers wrote it and how the NFA violates this. Remind people and politicians of history, remind them of how gun control has worked throughout the ages, remind them why Lexington and Concord happened.

2. Organize the vote, get your friends and family to the ballot box. Make phone calls and give people rides, be annoying as hell if needed just get them out to vote!

3. Along with your newly educated voters seek out your politicians and lobby the case for repeal. Show them the numbers, show them the facts. And most importantly don't be a one trick pony that can be swayed with reassuring words on your favorite issue, get involved and stay involved in the political landscape. This can be painful and disheartening at times but only when they realize we are not going away will they even consider our proposal.

4. Be consistent. Getting government back to its roots means smaller government so don't call for getting government out of the second on one hand while demanding they pass more regulation to fix another problem on the other hand. Don't forget that government is incompetent in nearly everything they do, they simply cannot fix problems, only we can do that.

5. Take people shooting! This may be the most effective way to boost our cause. Once people spend time at the range they are more open to the shooting culture. Concentrate on the youngsters, if this situation is going to change then they will be the ones that make it happen.

I realize this is not some detailed legislative proposal, I don't believe that route will work, this is not a legislative problem as much as it's a cultural problem. Passing more laws on guns will only serve as an opportunity for the establishment to add more backdoors to removing our Liberties, just look at their track record. There is no easy quick solution, it will take decades of hard dedicated work to return this country to its roots. The forces of evil have been chipping away at our culture for a long time, we cannot fix it overnight. They have the power and the money, they have the ear of the sheeple, at this point the second and God are all that stands  between us and the establishment enacting a tyrannical rule. My hope is this method can return true Liberty to this great nation, sadly I am very skeptical it can be accomplished this way as we are so far down the road of a godless one world government. I will continue to promote this approach as I fill out range cards..............

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/7-8/form.gif

and how to use them;

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/23-34/Appe.htm

jtallen83 and Hotwrench,

Your right, we need to do all of this.  And while we do this and turn 100's to our side, another school shooting will turn thousands against us.  I think the NRA goes about fighting this the wrong way.  Instead of just promoting carrying a firearm, they need to bring out the people who have defended themselves with a firearm and let them tell their story.  At the rate that school shootings are happening, we don't have decades to re-educate the population.

When the constitution was written, it was written vaguely and ambiguous.  They did that so that the rights of the people are assumed and not dictated.  They also did that so that the meaning of the constitution could be interpreted and not have to be amended on a constant basis.  That's partially why there are only 27 constitutional amendments.  Conversely, the Texas constitution was written very specifically and has now been amended 491 times.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."  That's the 2nd Amendment.

While your interpretation is that there is no limit on what firearm a citizen should be able to own, the liberal next door's interpretation is that it only means a flintlock pistol or rifle.  After all, those are the weapons of the period when the constitution was written.  The second amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear arms, but it doesn't say the "right to keep any and all arms".  It is up to the supreme court to interpret the constitution and apply it to the laws as they are written today.  There are already dozens if not hundreds of laws on the books that restrict firearms and have been declared constitutional.  And that is with a conservative supreme court.  What happens if the next democratic president gets to choose one or more supreme court justices?  There are three that are age 79 or older.

Why not take a page from the gun control lobby, while your beating on the front door to keep your arms, sneak through the back door and protect your rights with a federal license.

Also, there was nothing in the "semi auto license" idea about registration.  As I understood it, any transactions between license holders were not recorded.  And any purchases from dealers would still be handled as they are now.

In 1787 when the constitution was written, there were about 3.9 million people.  Now there is about 326 million people.   Almost 100 times more.  Of those 326 million, a little over a third own guns.  That's over half of the population that either are against guns or likely don't care about gun rights because they are not affected.  

Here's my opinion,.  You can take it for whatever you think it is worth.  Gun control is a slippery slope.  The NRA fights to keep us at the top of the hill but we are already sliding down it.  A well written "semi-auto license" could be the stake in the ground that gives us the leverage and time  to climb back up the hill.

Sorry if this seems to ramble, it's 2:00 am and i am awake thanks to my son's new puppy.

 

 

[jtallen83]

2 hours ago, NTXshooter said:

Why not take a page from the gun control lobby, while your beating on the front door to keep your arms, sneak through the back door and protect your rights with a federal license.

Because at this point there isn't even proposed legislation to ask your representatives to get behind, just an article from an anonymous source published in a liberal rag. There is nothing there but vapors to get behind at this point. 

The musket analogy is a red herring, do we limit internet and TV speech because it wasn't around when the first was written? Should we be required to get a license to voice our opinions? This is a liberal constitutional revisionists argument, the intent and purpose of the second was very clearly spelled out by the men that wrote and signed the constitution. The proof of this is all here;

http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/documents/1786-1800/the-federalist-papers/

Jefferson would very clearly oppose this federal power grab;

https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/jefferson/jefffed.html

The numbers should be irrelevant and most likely skewed with bias. The reason the constitution was written as it was is to protect the minority from the majority, the founding fathers knew that a pure democracy would rapidly lead to tyranny.

This license idea is compromise and I have seen how well compromise works in the past. IF all gun owners would do something similar to my plan (most of us already practice this to some degree) and do it with passion we would be unstoppable. Just look around at who it is that owns the guns, in general the most respected parts of our society. The antis are the teachers and the children, the welfare crowd, the uneducated and the over educated. We are the business owners, the Police, the Firemen, the leaders of society. Truth is on our side, history is on our side, and I believe God is on our side, we need to start acting like the rock of society we are and stop negotiating away our children's Liberty for the promise of safety. This approach is exactly how previous generations lost the true second in the first place.

LIBERTY FIRST!

[98Z5V]

3 hours ago, jtallen83 said:

Because at this point there isn't even proposed legislation to ask your representatives to get behind, just an article from an anonymous source published in a liberal rag. There is nothing there but vapors to get behind at this point.

However, it's the most thought out plan of attack yet.  It's an actual plan of action, with details, on how to accomplish a huge win for the 2A side, give us more freedoms than we currently have (it actually gives you back two or three classes of NFA items, over the counter, zero wait time). It gives you all this and no record of transaction - just verification that "you're licensed."  In addition, I'm pretty positive that the article stated that it would be Federal Law in it's base, and states could not over-ride the basic freedoms in that law - which would be a huge win for those proud 2A supporters in restrictive states - CA, NY NJ,CT, MA, VT now...   If it's a win for them, it's a win for all of us countrywide.

[NTXshooter]

That's the point.

3 hours ago, jtallen83 said:

Because at this point there isn't even proposed legislation to ask your representatives to get behind, just an article from an anonymous source published in a liberal rag. There is nothing there but vapors to get behind at this point. 

Every piece of legislation starts with an idea that someone proposes  To be offensive and promote legislation that supports and protects us instead of letting the gun control lobby write the law is the goal.  

3 hours ago, jtallen83 said:

The musket analogy is a red herring, do we limit internet and TV speech because it wasn't around when the first was written? Should we be required to get a license to voice our opinions? This is a liberal constitutional revisionists argument, the intent and purpose of the second was very clearly spelled out by the men that wrote and signed the constitution.

It is not a red herring.  The Supreme Court has already ruled that citizens do not have the right to all firearms.  The NFA, AWB and District of Columbia vs. Heller.

http://bigthink.com/risk-reason-and-reality/the-supreme-court-ruling-on-the-2nd-amendment-did-not-grant-an-unlimited-right-to-own-guns

Just as free speech isn't totally free either.  And, yes they do limit speech of TV.  The FCC has a whole list of words that you can't say on TV.  And if you still think it is free, just go yell "FIRE" in a theater and see how fast you are arrested.

You can quote the founding fathers, the Federalist Papers, and any other 240 year old paper you want to but they are not legal documents with respect to the government.  They are opinions.  It is the 9 Supreme Court Justices sitting on the bench in Washington that are interpreting the Constitution that is deciding the fate of your gun rights.

[Hotwrench]

3 hours ago, jtallen83 said:

LIBERTY FIRST!

Thanks, your reply is better than the one I had in mind. To quote you. "This license idea is compromise and I have seen how well compromise works in the past. "

98, quit trying to put lipstick on that pig. Quote, " The framework I’m proposing is essentially a grand bargain: The gun control side gives up the possibility of a federal gun registry, specific states abandon their weapon bans and long gun registries, and in exchange the gun rights side accepts a brand new federal licensing scheme with real teeth." Do you really think several states(Cali for instance) are going to be willing to give ground to that extent? Do you think the Fed's wouldn't take advantage of an easy data base that contained most gun owners, unlike the present system that at least makes it lllegal to copy the 4473's and retain them at the Fed level? The legislation will get beat to death in the process of being written and it would be a just registration scheme if we were lucky and skilful. Have you ever sat in a committee meeting and watched the wrangling that goes on while a bill is getting passed through a committee?  The outcome depends totally on the makeup of the committee, if it has a bad for us majority an unrecognizable piece of legislation goes to the floor for a vote. Then the process starts again, if the House or Senate at the time has the wrong majority the legislation gets basterdized some more. Even if the mix is right in the committee, the House or the Senate, how many politicians have the technical knowledge to understand the subject matter, even some of the "good ones" don't know a bolt from a reciever. I would call it a crap shoot to get a recognizable piece of legislation through but in craps you at least know the odds. With the self serving "public servants" we have now, who could figure the odds of good legislation resulting? That process is part of the reason medicine is in its present state, the insurance companies controlled the legislation to their advantage. Do you think the big money wouldn't come out and control this legislation that we are discussing?

NTXshooter, I am glad you got involved, even if you don't agree.

98 maybe you and NTXshooter are right in that jtallen's plan is too slow but in the mean time go at it a piece at a time instead of a big unmanageable chunk while practising his outline.

[98Z5V]

4 minutes ago, Hotwrench said:

98, quit trying to put lipstick on that pig.

You keep up with the slams and insults, and this conversation is going to take a different turn.

[Hotwrench]

4 minutes ago, NTXshooter said:

.  It is the 9 Supreme Court Justices sitting on the bench in Washington that are interpreting the Constitution that is deciding the fate of your gun rights. 

Our government is supposed to have three branches.

The decision as I understand it says weapons in common use.

Don't count the founding fathers out, they wrote 240 year old documents that have worked well for 240 years.

[Hotwrench]

7 minutes ago, 98Z5V said:

You keep up with the slams and insults, and this conversation is going to take a different turn.

Really, that is in common use where I come from and I never saw anyone take it as a slam before. But it points out a useful thing, communication is hard when it takes place between people with different cultural backgrounds, in this case east coast country and I guess west coast unknown. Don't be so easily offended, if you don't understand follow another piece of east coast country advice, let the rough side drag.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Hotwrench
spelling

[98Z5V]

I've listened to it throughout this thread. From you.

If you can't have a conversation, and have to resort to what you have been doing, then it's taking a turn in a different direction, and it will rapidly.

You take that for what it's worth.