ATF Ruling 2011-4, Concerning AR Pistols and Rifles

[98Z5V]

Pretty interesting ruling by the BATFE on this - converting an AR Pistol to a Rifle, and back again.  I'm still reading through it, but it's a pretty ground-breaking ruling, IMHO.

http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

[imschur]

ok thats way too much for me to comprehend on an empty stomach. Whats the bottom line?

[edgecrusher]

ok, i'm on board with drew, fighting a migraine, help me out, i promise to read in full when well

[Robocop1051]

If your AR is registered as a rifle you can not change it to a pistol.

If your AR is registered as a pistol you can change it to a full size rifle. You may not change it to a short barrel rifle. You may change that rifle back into a pistol at any time.

Further. Just having the parts in close proximity, with no other use, is no longer allowed. So no building a SBR upper and keeping it in the safe in case the zombies attack.

[edgecrusher]

that seems extreme, no parts allowed near it? now you're just trying to get me to fill another safe aren't you :o

[6132expert]

If your AR is registered as a rifle you can not change it to a pistol.

If your AR is registered as a pistol you can change it to a full size rifle. You may not change it to a short barrel rifle. You may change that rifle back into a pistol at any time.

Further. Just having the parts in close proximity, with no other use, is no longer allowed. So no building a SBR

upper and keeping it in the safe in case the zombies attack.

Thats why they go under the pillow

[Robocop1051]

<laughs> I think it's more directed at the guy with the AR rifle lower and the SBR upper being transported in the same gun case. No more loopholing through the law saying it is legal because they aren't assembled.

[edgecrusher]

if this is the case, 98z5v, that option is out, as i was about to buy  "virgin preban lower". which i guess is okay, because new ones are cheaper and better made. but having as a pistol first would've enabled me to shoot while i waited for paperwork. now i think it'll be a larue stealth set, when i'm not so poor, just got engaged saturday and her ring set me back a bit :o :o. maybe i can get a larue gift card out of it ;D

[98Z5V]

If your AR is registered as a rifle you can not change it to a pistol.

If your AR is registered as a pistol you can change it to a full size rifle. You may not change it to a short barrel rifle. You may change that rifle back into a pistol at any time.

Further. Just having the parts in close proximity, with no other use, is no longer allowed. So no building a SBR upper and keeping it in the safe in case the zombies attack.

Incorrect, on several counts, as I read it.  'll get into more of it later.  Before, you couldn't "have parts close by."  Now you can.  I'm still trying to decipher all of it.

Here's some current discussion on this:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/544337_ATF_RULING_2011_4_MAKING_AR15_PISTOLS_INTO_RIFLES_AND_BACK_AGAIN___LEGAL__.html

[Robocop1051]

I would really like to hear your view of the BATFE finding. Perhaps I got turned around in all the legal jargon and missed something. I'm not above admitting fault if it's there.

As for the ARF thread... Ugh! That thread is a prime example of why I DON'T go there anymore. 10% info, 90% BS and whining. I realize that there is only about a dozen active members on 308ar at a time, but I love this place! It's like hanging at the local bar for me... And I'm sober now, so I need this place <laughs>

[imschur]

<lmao>

[98Z5V]

I know, brother - that thread turned to poop, quickly.  There's more to this ruling than meets the eye, barring any state laws that might screw people over.  If state laws don't interfere with the ruling here, then it reaches broadly.  Example is:  This is an Open Letter from BATFE.  Individual permission to apply it to you doesn't need to be made.  It applies to everybody, unless state laws differ.

Read the Thompson Contender references closely - that was a kit from a manufacturer that was both rifle and pistol - that's now perfectly legal, with this Open Letter.  The old addage of "Once a rifle, always a rifle," doesn't pertain anymore, with this letter.  From what I'm gathering, you still can't turn a rifle into a pistol (NFA), but if it starts as a pistol, you can convert it to a rifle, and you can convert it back to it's pistol state, legally.  That option has now been created.

For us AR-15-based guys, you still cannot combine rifle and pistol parts, because then you've created an SBR - but you can have rifle parts, then pistol parts, and it needs to be in one configuration or the other.  You get you keep the other parts there, as long as they're not combined onto the gun together.

[98Z5V]

Here's an actual (no poop) intelligent conversation about this ruling - my comments here, before the link - stripped lowers, as allowed by your state's laws, should be transferred as "other" on the new version of the 4473.  That's why the new version was created.  If it's stripped, and your state's laws allow it, it doesn't need to be declared as a "pistol" or a "rifle" on the new form.  State's laws might demand something different, even with the new form, but that's one of the reasons I moved back to AZ...  <dontknow>

Okay - it transfers as "other" on the new form, and it's not a pistol or a rifle.  It's simply a stripped lower.  Check out this conversation, and summise your own opinions.  All my stripped lowers will be photographed (with a digital date) with a pistol buffer tube on them, and a pistol-length upper receiver attached (less than 16" barrel).  By serial number, visible in the pics.  At that point, they all start their lives as a pistol build...  <thumbsup>

Read, discuss if ya wanna...

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/544575_Build_all_virgin_lowers_as_pistols_first_.html

[goshinkaibushi]

OK, without having read the letter (I am on a short study break)...

Can you still FORM 1 an AR Pistol into an SBR?

Justin

[planeflyer21]

I don't get the whole want/need for an SBR but I don't like ding-dongs at BATFE making up rules as they go along.

308AR is head, shoulders, torso, and upper legs above ARF.  I went there a couple of times.  Trying to get information is like forcing your foot into a yard square cube of red clay, getting your foot and ankle wedged in, then realizing it is dog crap and not red clay.

It surprises me to no end that they have tens of thousands of members.

Jon

[edgecrusher]

i felt the same way  <lmao>

[unforgiven]

I was at AR15 I like it here better intelligence level a lot higher and you guys got a sense of humor <laughs>. Shoot on bro.

[goshinkaibushi]

I don't get the whole want/need for an SBR but I don't like ding-dongs at BATFE making up rules as they go along.

Jon

Jon,

The SBR... I want a 300BLK and that round loves the 9-10" brls..... figured build/buy one in a pistol and then Form 1 it as a SBR.

Justin

[planeflyer21]

I have to admit that an SBR based on an AR platform, with a detachable magazine, makes more sense than many of the other ones I've seen.

Jon

[unforgiven]

My understanding of SBR is, less than 14.5" and there are problems with cycling due to gas pulse but I guess if you tweak gas it's doable,IMO 14.5 for 5.56[surpriseingly 14.5 accually stiffens barrel so still be accurate but then 1-8 twist best] I can see 16" for .308 but 18" or 20" would be best in IMO .308 is for reaching out and touching someone my goal is hits at 1000 yds. but that's me.Shoot on guys.

[98Z5V]

You can still Form 1 an AR pistol into an SBR.  <thumbsup>

[unforgiven]

Do you have to pay that $200.00 tax? Shoot on bro.

[98Z5V]

Do you have to pay that $200.00 tax? Shoot on bro.

Always, brother. 

[goshinkaibushi]

You can still Form 1 an AR pistol into an SBR.  <thumbsup>

Thank you!  Now I can get the 300 BLK... and since it was designed around a 9" barrel... I will get the pistol, have fun shooting it while waiting on a Form 1 to clear... then, I have my suppressed 300 BLK for "fun."

Justin

[unforgiven]

Anything suppressed very cool,what kind of can?Shoot on bro.