Palmetto PA-10 failure to eject

[ARTrooper]

well with the 3 main issues we are seeing with PSA's 308 platform, if all 3 issues plague a rifle, it will cost around $80-$100 to fix. Still a good deal for them, but more and more wondering if it is worth it.

[W.E.G.]

I fired three types of ammo in the Palmetto PA-10 today, with the Fulton Armory extractor assembly installed in the Palmetto bolt.

Also installed the Fulton Armory 15.5” gas tube in the original Palmetto non-adjustable has block.

Rifle ran just fine.

I don’t know whether the shorter Palmetto gas tube was actually ever the reason the rifle wouldn’t eject spent cases reliably. I’m confident it never would have cycled reliably if I hadn’t gotten rid of that weak Palmetto two-spring extractor spring assembly.

It is entirely possible that the PA-10 uppers will run OK so long as you get rid of the Palmetto extractor springs, and replace them with a quality extractor spring, and polymer extractor-support insert, and correct-size O-ring.

[unforgiven]

The average person would use that rifle for a paper weight if they weren't mechanically inclined or a pry bar.

[98Z5V]

12 minutes ago, W.E.G. said:

It is entirely possible that the PA-10 uppers will run OK so long as you get rid of the Palmetto extractor springs, and replace them with a quality extractor spring, and polymer extractor-support insert, and correct-size O-ring.

That all depends on the nature of the issue with the rifle.  The most common complaint about them is that they are overgassed, and everyone tells them to get an adjustable gasblock to cure that.  Pretty hard to be overgassed when the gas port diameter is smaller than it should be.

[W.E.G.]

There may have been some that actually WERE over-gassed in prior iterations of this model.

All you have to do is look at the drunk-bubba-with-a-coarse-stone-dremel feed-ramp "fitting" that was done to the barrel extension on mine to conclude that Palmetto's efforts with these rifles is a "work in progress." 

I got in there and smoothed-out some of the "rhythm section" that Bubba carved into the ramps before actually firing the rifle. But in this pic, before I worked on it, you can see that Bubba left the ramps rough enough that they actually pulled fibers off a Q-tip (see right-side ramp)  when I was examining the ramps.

 

[98Z5V]

24 minutes ago, W.E.G. said:

There may have been some that actually WERE over-gassed in prior iterations of this model.

With 0.070" gas ports on 18" mid-gas barrels, they weren't overgassed.  That gasport is about 0.010~0.015" too small for that configuration, on a 0.750" gasblock diameter.

They didn't have enough buffer weight, nor recoil spring strength...

Take the weights out of one of your AR15 carbine buffers, and get it to about 1.5oz.  Shoot it like that - it'll feel overgassed, too...  That's the easiest way to explain it.

[W.E.G.]

Just to be sure we're on the same page regarding what I'm reporting, my rifle is a 20" barrel.

My gas port will accept a  3/32" (0.09375") drill bit with a very snug fit.

[98Z5V]

18 minutes ago, W.E.G. said:

Just to be sure we're on the same page regarding what I'm reporting, my rifle is a 20" barrel.

My gas port will accept a  3/32" (0.09375") drill bit with a very snug fit.

Yep, I understand that.  I'm talking about the other rifles from the same manufacturer, in the 18" versions - that everyone thinks are overgassed...  

[W.E.G.]

My "review" is live on the Palmetto website

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-gen2-pa10-20-rifle-length-308-win-1-10-stainless-steel-15-m-lok-upper-with-bcg-and-ch-5165447551.html

[W.E.G.]

Wow.

My review was up initially. Looks like Palmetto yanked both of my reviews in fact.

I gave the upper a 3-star review - with explanation as to why stars taken away due to specific flaws.

I gave the lower a 5-star review with caveat that buttstock and trigger are basic, and should be replaced with better examples of each.

Here's what I posted for the upper:

I purchased a Palmetto PA-10 complete rifle-length upper in February 2019. The upper is now mounted on a correctly-functioning PA-10 lower purchased at the same time frame.

 

I have three criticisms of the PA-10 rifle-length upper.

 

1.      The upper would not reliably EJECT spent cases. About 50% failure rate. The rifle would fire, and it would leave the spent case sitting on top of the magazine follower. If there were additional rounds in the magazine, the un-ejected case would get “jammed” with the next round. I determined the cause of the failure-to-eject to be a defective extractor spring. Palmetto uses a pair of springs for the PA-10 extractor. A small spring inside of a counter-wound larger spring. The pair of Palmetto springs provide significantly weaker tension on the extractor than the extractor-springs furnished by other vendors. I was not satisfied either with the size of the claw on the Palmetto extractor. The Palmetto claw was narrower than the claw on extractors offered by other AR-10 parts vendors. I replaced the Palmetto extractor springs with a spring set (one coil spring and one polymer reinforcement-stem and one O-ring), and also the extractor itself, from another vendor. Replacement of the entire extractor assembly with parts from another vendor cured the failure-to-extract problem. I subtracted a star in the rating because of this.

 

2.      The feed-ramp on the barrel extension was severely rough-textured due to the obvious use of a coarse-stone grinder-tool on the ramps. We can only wonder why Palmetto used such a coarse, and imprecise, tool on the ramps. The cuts were rough and irregular-symmetry. At least the grinder-operator could have given the ramps a little attention with some sandpaper. The ramps were so rough that the burrs on the ramp would tear cotton off a cotton swab if a swab was used to clean the area. Before firing the rifle, I had to file and sand the rough ramps to prevent the ramps from abrading the bullet-tip as the cartridges were fed into the chamber. I subtracted another star in the rating because of this.

 

3.      The gas tube used by Palmetto in this upper is shorter than commonly found in rifle-length AR-10 type uppers. The shorter Palmetto tube extends a shorter-than-usual distance into the “key” on the bolt carrier. I replaced the Palmetto tube with a tube, from another vendor, which measures the typical 15.5”. I am not prepared to say that the shorter Palmetto tube contributed to the failure-to-eject problems. However, the Palmetto gas tube length is an irregularity that I chose to correct as I was diagnosing the failure-to-eject problem. Because the shorter tube may actually function OK (which I cannot say one way or the other) I did not subtract a star from the rating because of the unusually-short gas tube.

 

Once the failure-to-eject issue was solved, I was able to test the upper for accuracy. I installed the upper on the Palmetto complete PA-10 lower, but with modifications to the complete lower. I added an expensive aftermarket trigger from another vendor, and I added an expensive aftermarket buttstock from another vendor. So-configured, the Palmetto upper delivered very acceptable accuracy.

 

I have attached photos to this review to illustrate my comments.

 

 

 

 

[98Z5V]

Doesn't surprise me - after you stated you left a review, I went right over there to look for it. I certainly didn't see what you've posted above.

This information is getting further and further out now.  It's been a couple years now, for people to figure out what's going on.  What you've discovered with the extractor, we've never seen before, here.  The other stuff, we know the fixes on, to make the rifles function.

It was up, and they yanked it.  Hmmm...   Not shocked.

[Lane]

You're actually showing different extractors with different springs here. The comparison would have to be expanded to see what the real differences are. Same goes for the claw grip issue. The claw can be tested inside your hand (and bolt); and outside the gun. 

I am not discounting the fact that incorrect springs could hobble extraction, but there is no way to know which if the claw grip is not tested both ways. 

6 minutes ago, 98Z5V said:

What you've discovered with the extractor, we've never seen before, here.

That's why I'm still curious. 

[Cliff R]

I purchased their 14.7" upper and matching lower at the same time but never tried it as delivered.  Before every firing the rifle I replaced the 6 position stock with an A-2 stock and bought a different buffer and spring.  (I'll dig around my emails some and try to find out what I purchased and post it later)  At the time really didn't know if they were the correct parts for the stock conversion and was not a member of this site so just rolled the dice on it.

I've ran a LOT of rounds thru it and 100 percent flawless no matter what load I've tried.  No miss-fires, failures to feed, or eject.

To date I've fired PMC, Federal, WWC commercial ammo, some older Lake City Match, and several Military left overs I had laying around.

For reloads I've ran at least 60 rounds of Sierra 150 grain over some left over 4320 powder and at least 50 Barnes 175 grain SST bullets over Varget. 

The only gripe I have is that it has "rough" feed ramps and scratches the cases up some.  After seeing the photo's above I can see why that's happening.  As far as accuracy goes it didn't like the PMC much, did OK with all the factory Federal and WWC hunting rounds I put thru it, and at 300 yards I can easily hold the Barnes 175's under 6" firing half a dozen about as fast as I can get back on target. 

Maybe I got lucky or the blind-drunk bubba squirrel found a nut the day he put my upper together.........who knows but I'm pretty happy with it overall.........Cliff

PS:  forgot to comment on the trigger, it was horrible, lots of creep, "gritty" and heavy.  Not a big deal, that's about a 10 minute fix with a roll pin punch, pair of pliers, a good stone and a little polishing......

[W.E.G.]

Looks like both of my reviews on the Palmetto site are still squashed.

Palmetto sent me a reply via email.

From: Palmetto State Armory [mailto:notifications@turntonetworks.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2019 9:07 AM
Subject: Palmetto State Armory responded to your review

 ACCESSORIES AMMO AR-15 RELOADING OPTICS   

You have received a response to your review  on "PSA Gen2 PA-10 20" Rifle-Length .308 WIN 1:10 Stainless Steel 15" M-lo..."   poor ejection - good accuracy - rough workmanship 
I purchased a Palmetto PA-10 complete rifle-length upper in February 2019. The upper is now mounted on a correctly-functioning PA-10 lower purchased at the same time frame. I have three criticisms of the PA-10 rifle-length upper... (wall of text omitted for brevity). I have attached photos to this review to illustrate my comments. March 19, 2019 by Gary J   

Response from Palmetto State Armory  
We do apologize for that. Since all of our parts and firearms are covered by our Lifetime Warranty, if you have any issues arise from the craftsmanship of the product, we can either have select parts sent to you for you to replace, or we can have the item brought in, at no cost to you, so we can repair or replace the defective product. Please contact Customer Service so we may resolve this issue. 
March 20, 2019 by Casey S Staff   
You're receiving this email because of your shopping activity at palmettostatearmory.com. 

We promise to use your information only according to our privacy policy.  

© 2018 Palmetto State Armory 
3760 Fernandina Rd, Columbia, SC 29210 
1-803-724-6950 
info@palmettostatearmory.com

[W.E.G.]

 

9 hours ago, Lane said:

You're actually showing different extractors with different springs here. The comparison would have to be expanded to see what the real differences are.

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking to see.

Are you asking to see the Palmetto extractor equipped with the Fulton spring-assembly in order to observe where the rear of the Palmetto extractor sits when so-equipped?

[ARTrooper]

them saying they will replace parts wont matter if they replace them with the same crappy parts. lol. I could see them possibly polishing the feed ramps for you, otherwise not much else they could do to make your parts better you had to replace.

[unforgiven]

Sometimes a deal isn't a good deal.

[washguy]

1 hour ago, unforgiven said:

Sometimes a deal isn't a good deal.

Right on brother !    Wash

[Lane]

9 hours ago, W.E.G. said:

Are you asking to see the Palmetto extractor equipped with the Fulton spring-assembly in order to observe where the rear of the Palmetto extractor sits when so-equipped?

Yes and no. You've done a great job showing the differences between the two brands; but there are differences between all those individual parts. From my understanding of what @jtallen83 was suggesting about bad springs... That situation only applies to a known good extractor with a spring system that failed. I don't see a reason to suspect the springs are actually an issue here in the failure to eject situation. What you did replace was exactly correct (you have a good extractor and good springs now). The question left in terms of this new PSA problem is whether the ejector claw they ship is actually binding on the brass. 

I left my ejector in the bolt for ease of testing and photography; but you can do the same test with just the extractor clip in your fingers. You're looking for any kind of binding or grabbing of the brass by the edges of the extractor clip (or the middle for that matter if any of those other cuts are wrong). 

Here is an out of focus picture of what that test looks like when mounted in the BCG/bolt. Clip the cartridge in at an angle and press into the ejector (takes some force). Then allow the cartridge to spring back slowly. If it feels fine, do it again and let the cartridge try to release itself and fly out. My suspicion here is still that the claw isn't the right shape to allow that release. 

With just the ejector clip outside the bolt you would only rotate the cartridge from vertical to the 15-ish degree angle and feel for binding. If the claw is wrong it will fight the cartridge lip and hold on in a bad way; likely even mark the brass.

What you've done here already is a huge help; just curious to hone in on which part is really broken when the next person with a PA-10 FTE comes along. 

[mley1]

On the extractor issue, I can confirm that a JP extractor will work with a PSA bolt, and function properly. When my extractor broke, the claw just snapped off. I contacted PSA and they sent me a new BCG complete. So, I decided to repair the old bolt with a JP extractor. I got it from Primary Arms as they are close to me in Houston. The JP extractor works like a champ in the PSA bolt in my rifle.

Edited March 21, 2019 by mley1

[Lane]

21 minutes ago, mley1 said:

So, I decided to repair the old bolt with a JP extractor.

Thanks for the tip on that issue. I was suspecting a similar situation here... The ejector is highly suspect in terms of measurements; and if they break, there could be other issues involved. Thickness of material, manufacturing defects, who really knows?

[ARTrooper]

3 hours ago, Lane said:

What you've done here already is a huge help; just curious to hone in on which part is really broken when the next person with a PA-10 FTE comes along. 

Yeah Lane, I would have to agree with you. WEG kinda replaced a few parts at a time, which there is nothing wrong with, but makes it harder to really tell where the issue was if it was just one part. At least we have a general idea. I think the shape of the claw on the extractor looks suspect though. could be the photos, but it does look different from others. maybe the claw would work with a different spring or maybe the PSA spring would of worked with a different claw. Sounds like a job for someone with a lot more time on their hands. lol.

Either way, great job WEG for seeing the details that allowed you to fix it. ?

[98Z5V]

That spring was alot smaller in OD.  Turns out it was shorter, too.  That spring is just about only good for shooting out of a wrist rocket, at something.

[W.E.G.]

Comparison/Compilation in case anybody is interested

[W.E.G.]

3 hours ago, Lane said:

...The question left in terms of this new PSA problem is whether the ejector claw they ship is actually binding on the brass. 

....You're looking for any kind of binding or grabbing of the brass by the edges of the extractor clip (or the middle for that matter if any of those other cuts are wrong). 

....Clip the cartridge in at an angle and press into the ejector (takes some force). Then allow the cartridge to spring back slowly. If it feels fine, do it again and let the cartridge try to release itself and fly out. My suspicion here is still that the claw isn't the right shape to allow that release. 

With just the ejector clip outside the bolt you would only rotate the cartridge from vertical to the 15-ish degree angle and feel for binding. If the claw is wrong it will fight the cartridge lip and hold on in a bad way; likely even mark the brass.

OK, I understand what you are asking about now. Sounds almost like what I had to do to get my 1911 to stop throwing brass backwards, and into my girlfriend's face and then down her blouse. I'll get you some info on that.

I received a spare extractor spring and insert from Fulton today. I may install those parts in the Palmetto extractor, and try it in the Palmetto bolt at the range to see if it might really be down to exclusively the extractor springs.