98Z5V Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 (edited) You're in the middle of the range, and your gun isn't running right. Did you replace that gas tube yet? That's another contributing factor. It's WAY too short, and it's cutting your gas timing short. You can piece-meal this thing any way you want to, or you can listen to what I'm saying about your gun. Your recoil system is FINE, with the Sprinco Orange spring. It's not the problem, and the more you fuk with the recoil system, the more you're only putting the band-aid on the wrong cut. Your gas system is what needs the work here. That gas tube you have now has to go. You need proper gas timing, period. Gas tube length is what determines proper gas timing. You're in the middle of the range I gave you, at 0.093". I stated that you need something between 0.090" and 0.095". All barrels are different, unless they're specifically hand-made match barrels from the very same barrel maker (same person, not company). My factory barrel might run all my ammo fine with a 0.090" gas port, but your same-company barrel might need a 0.093" or a 0.095" to run the same ammo I'm running, in the same conditions... You might still need to drill that gas port up one size or two. Fuk it, live dangerous - you already have an adjustable gas block that doesn't help you at all, so use what you paid for - use the adjustable gas block... Drill your gas port to 0.100" and be done with it, then tune the gas block down. First thing you need to do is get that gas tube out of there, and get a gas tube that will at least come to the center of the cam pin cutout in your upper receiver. You can listen or not, but if your choice is to just keep changing parts, hoping something works, then I'll just sit back and watch what happens. I've given you the information that I know, so do with it what you want. Edited September 21, 2019 by 98Z5V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamc55 Posted September 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 5 hours ago, 98Z5V said: You're in the middle of the range, and your gun isn't running right. Did you replace that gas tube yet? That's another contributing factor. It's WAY too short, and it's cutting your gas timing short. You can piece-meal this thing any way you want to, or you can listen to what I'm saying about your gun. Your recoil system is FINE, with the Sprinco Orange spring. It's not the problem, and the more you fuk with the recoil system, the more you're only putting the band-aid on the wrong cut. Your gas system is what needs the work here. That gas tube you have now has to go. You need proper gas timing, period. Gas tube length is what determines proper gas timing. You're in the middle of the range I gave you, at 0.093". I stated that you need something between 0.090" and 0.095". All barrels are different, unless they're specifically hand-made match barrels from the very same barrel maker (same person, not company). My factory barrel might run all my ammo fine with a 0.090" gas port, but your same-company barrel might need a 0.093" or a 0.095" to run the same ammo I'm running, in the same conditions... You might still need to drill that gas port up one size or two. Fuk it, live dangerous - you already have an adjustable gas block that doesn't help you at all, so use what you paid for - use the adjustable gas block... Drill your gas port to 0.100" and be done with it, then tune the gas block down. First thing you need to do is get that gas tube out of there, and get a gas tube that will at least come to the center of the cam pin cutout in your upper receiver. You can listen or not, but if your choice is to just keep changing parts, hoping something works, then I'll just sit back and watch what happens. I've given you the information that I know, so do with it what you want. We didn't get back until 9pm last night so I only had time to disassemble everything after my kids went to bed. The new Armalite gas tube is at my brother in law's house and I'll be picking it up this morning, old one is already out and on the bench. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamc55 Posted September 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 New Armalite gas tube is installed. I'm going to test it before I drill out the gas port more, as I didn't have the proper bit on hand. When I put the bolt in it wouldn't go into battery, the gas tube was stopping it. However after working the action a few times it seems to fully seat now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtallen83 Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Adamc55 said: the gas tube was stopping it. Is it square in the upper when you look down on it in the upper? Maybe riding on a bit of the barrel nut? I had the same thing on a build, couldn't see any issues and it hasn't ended up with any uneven wear at the gas key interface, 🤔 One step at a time just like you are is the route to go, you'll be dialed in properly soon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamc55 Posted September 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 Well, I just finished at the range. It works! At first I set the gas block at half open, orange spring, first 3 rounds locked back but then it started not locking back and lobbing the brass on the bench top. I opened up the gas block and same deal. Switched to the new buffer spring and now it locks back every time. Tuned the gas block down a bit and she shoots like a dream. I had also lubed the heck out of everything. The pull on the Elftman trigger is almost sexual in nature. Now I just need to work on my shooting skill! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
washguy Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 (edited) Hey Adam This is what I do on every build.....hold your upper with the muzzle pointed down....take your bcg only...and insert it till just the front is inside.....then while muzzle is pointed down let go and let it drop......the bcg should go just about go into battery on a new build...if it doesn't or it stops then look at what the problem is. When you go to the range be sure you are lubed up real good.....also im not so sure you have the gas block squarely over the gas port hole....do the ol Wash muzzle BJ.....with the bcg out....gb loosened up.....plug up the chamber with lil finger or bullet wrapped in Kleenex......have the muzzle device off too...unless your a pro like me....and blow into muzzle while moving the gb around...you will find out the right spot to tighten it down....im thinkin you need to back away a bit from the ridge....maybe a credit card thickness....after doing this go have a smoke and relax or you could you compressed air....in that case forget the smoke. If after doing this and using the regular ol DPMS type spring it should cycle using the one round method ,and having the bcg lock back. did you lube up the buffer/buffer spring too? like I said in the beginning you are undergassed for that orange spring. If you need to drill out to a bigger port....get you a wooden dowel for the inside of the barrel.....the dowel will protect the barrel from the bit hitting the other side...easy peasy to drill you don't even need a drill press....barrels are soft...... Wash Well I see you have it going...Good for You ! Edited September 21, 2019 by washguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamc55 Posted September 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 1 hour ago, washguy said: Hey Adam This is what I do on every build.....hold your upper with the muzzle pointed down....take your bcg only...and insert it till just the front is inside.....then while muzzle is pointed down let go and let it drop......the bcg should go just about go into battery on a new build...if it doesn't or it stops then look at what the problem is. When you go to the range be sure you are lubed up real good.....also im not so sure you have the gas block squarely over the gas port hole....do the ol Wash muzzle BJ.....with the bcg out....gb loosened up.....plug up the chamber with lil finger or bullet wrapped in Kleenex......have the muzzle device off too...unless your a pro like me....and blow into muzzle while moving the gb around...you will find out the right spot to tighten it down....im thinkin you need to back away a bit from the ridge....maybe a credit card thickness....after doing this go have a smoke and relax or you could you compressed air....in that case forget the smoke. If after doing this and using the regular ol DPMS type spring it should cycle using the one round method ,and having the bcg lock back. did you lube up the buffer/buffer spring too? like I said in the beginning you are undergassed for that orange spring. If you need to drill out to a bigger port....get you a wooden dowel for the inside of the barrel.....the dowel will protect the barrel from the bit hitting the other side...easy peasy to drill you don't even need a drill press....barrels are soft...... Wash Well I see you have it going...Good for You ! I did participate in a muzzle BJ earlier when I was installing the gas block 😂 Thank you everyone for your help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Adamc55 said: Well, I just finished at the range. It works! At first I set the gas block at half open, orange spring, first 3 rounds locked back but then it started not locking back and lobbing the brass on the bench top. I opened up the gas block and same deal. Switched to the new buffer spring and now it locks back every time. Tuned the gas block down a bit and she shoots like a dream. I had also lubed the heck out of everything. The pull on the Elftman trigger is almost sexual in nature. Now I just need to work on my shooting skill! Hmmm... and everybody tries to say that the gas tube length isn't an issue. "It'll work..." Short gas tubes don't work, unless you compromise everything else in the recoil system and gas system... These aren't Race Guns... If you had to switch to a weaker spring than the Sprinco Orange spring in your setup just to get it to operate properly - that's telling you that your gas port is still undersized... Edited September 21, 2019 by 98Z5V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamc55 Posted September 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 17 hours ago, 98Z5V said: Hmmm... and everybody tries to say that the gas tube length isn't an issue. "It'll work..." Short gas tubes don't work, unless you compromise everything else in the recoil system and gas system... These aren't Race Guns... If you had to switch to a weaker spring than the Sprinco Orange spring in your setup just to get it to operate properly - that's telling you that your gas port is still undersized... The closest I could find to.1" is a 7/64" bit (.109") do you see any issue with using that size? Will it not really matter since I have the adjustable gas block? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunuckgaucho Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 29 minutes ago, Adamc55 said: The closest I could find to.1" is a 7/64" bit (.109") do you see any issue with using that size? Will it not really matter since I have the adjustable gas block? Not sure for availability done there but can you source metric drills? One of the best purchases I made was a drill set 1- 10mm in 0.1mm( approx 4 thou) increments. One of the plus is that it also covers a range of fractional,letter and number size bits. .1" = 2.54mm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
washguy Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 (edited) Adam you posted that your rifle is working ..why do you want to drill out the gas port ? Leave it alone if its running....Wash Edited September 22, 2019 by washguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamc55 Posted September 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 1 hour ago, washguy said: Adam you posted that your rifle is working ..why do you want to drill out the gas port ? Leave it alone if its running....Wash Not entirely sure, I had an idiot moment while at Lowe's. I think I was reasoning that I'd have more adjustability if the port was larger but then I realized I didn't have to have the gas block open all the way for it to run. In fact it's probably close to 60% threaded in with room to adjust down still. Leaving it alone for now. No sense in trying to fix what's not broken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
washguy Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 Exactly ! Wash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 (edited) On 9/11/2019 at 1:58 PM, washguy said: Adam You are too undergassed to be running the orange Sprinco.....run you a car308 ar plain o spring first.....then go from there...if the stock car spring doesn't work for ya then start looking to drill out the gas port....getting the long gas tube will also help.....easy things first....grab a stock ar 308 car spring and try it first before going off the rails......if you look at the Sprinco website they state the orange spring is for seriously over gassed 308's... Hey brother, I just want to point out that what you stated up there ^^^ is completely incorrect. The Orange spring is not designed for seriously overgassed .308ARs, in the least. It's designed as the standard replacement spring for a .308AR running a 7.000" internal depth extension and a 2.500" buffer. Here's exactly what Sprinco has for the Orange spring description: " Tactical Springs LLC .308 M4 CARBINE Extension Tube EXTRA POWER Moly-Plated Chrome Silicon Buffer Spring in Hard Tube (Color Coded ORANGE) [NOTE: Originally Developed for .308 CARBINE Platforms Utilizing Standard 7" Depth M4 Carbine Extension Tubes with Short Buffers. E.G. DPMS/Bushmaster, Etc., but are Often Appropriate for any Severely Over Gassed Carbine of Similar or Lesser Calibers] " ^^^ That's exactly copied from their description of the spring. So, to say that it's only for severely overgassed .308s is not accurate in the least. It's for ALL .308s that meet the criteria (7.000" extension running 2.500" buffer), and it's ALSO good for severely overgassed cabines of similar or lesser caliber. The Sprinco RED Spring would be for a seriously overgassed .308AR running a 7.000" extension and a 2.500" buffer... Edited September 22, 2019 by 98Z5V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 2 hours ago, Adamc55 said: Not entirely sure, I had an idiot moment while at Lowe's. I think I was reasoning that I'd have more adjustability if the port was larger but then I realized I didn't have to have the gas block open all the way for it to run. In fact it's probably close to 60% threaded in with room to adjust down still. Leaving it alone for now. No sense in trying to fix what's not broken Are you still using that weaker recoil spring, man? And the gun won't run with the correct spring in it?... The Sprinco Orange spring is the correct spring that you should be running for your configuration.So, if it doesn't run with that in there - your gas port is still too small... That making sense? That make sense to you @washguy?... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamc55 Posted September 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 45 minutes ago, 98Z5V said: Are you still using that weaker recoil spring, man? And the gun won't run with the correct spring in it?... The Sprinco Orange spring is the correct spring that you should be running for your configuration.So, if it doesn't run with that in there - your gas port is still too small... That making sense? That make sense to you @washguy?... I am still using that weaker spring. Would there be any benefit in using the orange spring if the gun is running good? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 22 minutes ago, Adamc55 said: I am still using that weaker spring. Would there be any benefit in using the orange spring if the gun is running good? That's entirely up to you. If it was mine, I'd make it right. You might find some brand of ammo sometime that doesn't cycle your gun well. Trying to figure out what that ammo is, is purely guesswork, until you buy something that doesn't run right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
washguy Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 98 Adams rifle is running fine with his adjustable gas block turned more than 50% closed......so he doesn't need an orange spring....the orange springs are for heavy gassed rifles.....why would you want him to drill out his gas port with it running fine....isn't it You that states not to complicate your shiit? ill bet over 50 % of the rifles on this board wouldn't cycle with that orange spring........ Wash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 22 minutes ago, washguy said: 98 Adams rifle is running fine with his adjustable gas block turned more than 50% closed......so he doesn't need an orange spring....the orange springs are for heavy gassed rifles.....why would you want him to drill out his gas port with it running fine....isn't it You that states not to complicate your shiit? ill bet over 50 % of the rifles on this board wouldn't cycle with that orange spring........ Wash Again, not true brother - Those orange springs are directly for .308AR rifles, running the 7" extension and 2.5" buffers, and Sprinco directly states that. That spring description I posted above was directly from Sprinco's website. Check it yourself... If he wasn't his gun almost right, though it's running now on the ammo he has, that's up to him. One day, he'll find the ammo that doesn't run right in it. With you running around saying they're only for heavy-gassed rifles, some fool in the next few months is going to try to argue that mis-information, and say that he saw it right here on this board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 (edited) Here's another way to think about it, Jeff - think about this for your own stuff, too. His recoil spring isn't gonna last forever, and it's gonna need to be replaced one day. Where is he gonna find that weird AR15 spring he's running now, or whatever it is?... In the future, he'll always be able to get another Sprinco orange spring as a replacement, and it'll be made to the exact same standards that it's made to right now, today. If he takes the time to make his run right, right now - he'll have a WAY easier time with his gun in the future, when he needs replacement parts. If he ups that gas port now, while he's got the time, and he puts that Orange spring in - and the gun runs great... life will be much easier down the road, when springs start wearing out. So will your life, if you take the time to get your guns set up right. Where did all your recoil springs come from? I can tell you what company's recoil spring is in every one of my ARs, brother. And I know where to get them in the future, too. OP, why stop now? You already have the Orange spring. Why stop, when you're so close to having the gun right? Just because it's "functioning?" It's functioning with a gas port that's too small, and you proved that by swapping in a weaker recoil spring to get it to run and function. You're a numbered drill bit away from having that gun right, not half-assed. Edited September 23, 2019 by 98Z5V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenworks Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, 98Z5V said: You might find some brand of ammo sometime that doesn't cycle your gun well. Trying to figure out what that ammo is, is purely guesswork, until you buy something that doesn't run right. I'm gonna go with this, IMI NATO stamped ball ammo won't cycle my gun. But she'll eat anything else no problem. Go figure Edited September 23, 2019 by Ravenworks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamc55 Posted September 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 Well after thinking about it a little more I figured I can always shut the gas block more all the way to closed but I can only open it up so much. So I went ahead and got another bit, .0995", cost a whopping $.78 at the local machining supply store. Fortunately the aero atlas is super easy to take on/off. Took about 5 minutes in all and I got it drilled out. Blew out the barrel, ran a bore snake through a few times and reassembled everything with the orange spring. I'll go test it out this weekend. Hopefully I didn't make a $300 mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenworks Posted September 24, 2019 Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 So what did you do about the size of the hole on the gas block? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamc55 Posted September 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Ravenworks said: So what did you do about the size of the hole on the gas block? Nothing, that hole is rather large compared to the port on the barrel Edited September 24, 2019 by Adamc55 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted September 24, 2019 Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 The main port in any gas block is usually slightly larger than you can ever go in the gas tube itself. The largest hole a gas tube can have (the gas inlet) is 0.125", and that's because it's diameter restricts the size to that. Any larger, and you're into the sides of the gas tube. You jut can't go over 0.125", unpossible (unless serious custom gas tubes and blocks are being hand-machined). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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