Which Faxon barrel?

[Crimsonboat]

Hey all, new to the forums but not AR's. I built both of my ar15s and now I'm working on my first ar10. I have always been into all types of shooting and have recently been getting into hunting a lot more. I am building this rifle as kind of an all around good .308 rifle. Like if you could only own one 308 and you needed to use it for hunting, precision, and course type shooting. I want it to be as precise as possible, as light and maneuverable as possible, and I want to not have to mortgage my house. That being said, i am really torn on the barrel i want. I really like Faxon barrels and they seem to really be a good bang for your buck. So I've narrowed it down to basically 4 options. Either 16 or 18 inch, and either pencil profile or the heavy fluted. Here's my dilemma: I know the 16in pencil will be the lightest, most maneuverable, and least expensive. But will the 5r rifling, heavier profile, and added length (slightly better velocity, and maybe barrel harmonics?) of the heavy fluted 18in barrel be worth the extra cost and weight and lost of some maneuverability. Also will the longer gas system of the 18in be a significant reducing in felt recoil and muzzle concussion? Or will it be a combination of the two (16 heavy fluted or 18 pencil) that gives me the best of the best? Also it should be noted that I really like the way the heavy fluted barrel looks over the pencil but that is a secondary determining factor. 

[98Z5V]

  On 11/20/2019 at 4:06 AM, Crimsonboat said:

 But will the 5r rifling, heavier profile, and added length (slightly better velocity, and maybe barrel harmonics?) of the heavy fluted 18in barrel be worth the extra cost and weight and lost of some maneuverability.

Expand  

That right there ^^^ - nobody else can answer for you.  Only you can answer that one, and it depends on what you do with it most... 

Hit this up and tell us about yourself:

https://forum.308ar.com/forum/22-introductions/

[Matt.Cross]

Which is more important, maneuverability or accuracy? It's not a philosophical question, it's an application question that's specific to you. If maneuverability is the prime factor, go with the pencil profile. if accuracy is the key factor go with the heavier longer barrel.

[jtallen83]

There is no magical compromise but the answer is simple, build two, or three.

Seriously though if you try to compromise between a bench/comp gun and a light feeling hunting rifle you won't be happy with it's performance on either.

[DNP]

[DNP]

If there was a perfect do all barrel contour and gas length...there wouldn’t be any others. If the weight doesn’t bother you and you want the accuracy and the look of the heavier fluted barrel...go for it. And then build another one next time the bank allows it. 

[98Z5V]

Another option is Ballistic Advantage for the barrel.  They have a few profiles and lengths that Faxon doesn't have. I have multiple barrels from both those companies, and they're all great - not trying to sway you away from Faxon, if your mind is set on that.  Just giving you options that are out there. 

Pick the best attributes that you want this gun to have, and what you want to do with it:

1. Most

2. "Still have that option or ability to do this...", and

3. "But, it still needs to be able to do this..."

List those things out, and we can help you come up with a narrowed field of options. 

If you want a gun that you hunt with primarily, but you want it lighter and maneuverable, but you still want it to shoot 800 yards decently well...   for example...  I'd tell you to get a 16" barrel. 

 

[Cliff R]

If the rifle is for hunting I'd go with the shorter/lighter profile for sure.

I've built half a dozen of these rifles to date in several configurations and they are HEAVY compared to AR-15 builds.  For my dedicated hunting 308-AR I ended up with a 14.7" (pinned/welded flash hider) in a lighter profile. 

It goes across the scales at 10 pounds and I've logged multiple rapid fire 5 round groups at 300 yards inside of 4" just leaning agains the truck or over a big round hay bale.  On the bench it will easily toss my 3 our of 5 rounds from my hunting handloads well under an 1".  It seems to heat up just a tad with repeating shots and the group "grows" slightly, but an Elk or deer will never know as I don't plan on missing with the first round!

Something seldom mentioned on here is that folks just seem to automatically think that a weapon will be accurate and shoot great groups when built with good parts.  Then when they see groups that look like a shotgun blast at 100 yards (for example) it is automatically assumed the weapon has some sort of flaw, like a cheap barrel.

I am "hired" by everyone in our hunting party that goes out West to sight in all the rifles.  The groups I shoot are considerably smaller than anyone else in the group will achieve with the same weapon/ammo.  This simply happens because I shot High Power matches for years and spent 20 years in the Military as a small arms instructor.  I do all the basics the same for each round and I don't flinch, jerk, or anticipate the shot.  I'm not patting myself on the back here,  just pointing out that shooting skills are learned, and the expertise from one shooter to another can vary dramatically.

For the most part you just can't grab a rifle, get locked into a rest and start shooting all the rounds into a dime at 100 yards even if the weapon is fully capable of that kind of accuracy.......FWIW......Cliff

[SgtDog0311]

True that!   I've shot BPCR for three years now and discovering things all the time.    Used to wonder about my groups (ten shot in most cases) having flyers out 3/4" or more from the core and one day I sat down with my spotting scope within easy access and started numbering my shots after each one on a target in front of me.   I discovered the mental picture I had of my sight-picture with each pull showed.   That mental snapshot of my hold explained every flyer and I started scrutinizing my own fundamentals a lot more.    Now, that's with iron sights but my scores sure took a jump.   Before that I'd been blaming those flyers on everything but myself.   

There is a few more factors to consider when you are casting your own bullets and shooting centerfire Black Powder cartridges but the fundamentals of shooting are the same.

[Cliff R]

The "fundamentals" don't really change for type of weapon.  For handguns and no rest "anticipation" in the biggest enemy for the shooter even if they are doing everything else (sight picture, breath control, trigger squeeze, etc) correctly.  All shooters to some extent anticipate the shot.  We used to call the "now" shot on the range when training. 

Do everything right, and right at the moment as you increase pressure on the trigger somewhere in between you tell your finger to fire the shot "now", instead of letting the steady rearward pretty have the weapon going off as complete surprise to you..

The worse your "now" shots combined with "jerking" the trigger and fighting the recoil, etc, the lower and to left or right (depending on whether you are left or right handed) your shots will end up.

Classic example of this is that when I sight in a handgun for someone, especially bigger calibers with butt-tons of recoil, my shots will almost always hit WAY higher on the target than theirs will.  How does that happen?  As the weapon fires recoil raises the barrel, the harder you are fighting recoil/anticipating the shot the lower the rounds will hit on the target.  I don't fight it at all, and every single round comes as a complete surprise, so the rounds/group will  be considerably higher when others shoot the same weapon from the same rest that day.

For rifles, especially with optics you can get all locked-in and settle yourself down to where about the only deviation you'll see is the cross-hairs "bouncing" ever so slightly with each heartbeat.  I try not to put any pressure in any direction out on the hand guard/fore end of the weapon even if they are free-floated and just let the weight of the rifle sit on the rest, sandbags, hay bale or whatever you are shooting across.  Any pull or holding on that end can and will effect bullet placement on target and group size as the bullets just don't instantly leave the barrel and anything you do during the period of ignition and bullet exiting the barrel still has some impact on bullet placement on target.  Of course it's a much lesser extent with rifles as velocities, barrel exit time and rise and not near as great as with a handgun.

Anyhow, enough off-track stuff.  For the OP's questions I'd go light, high quality, and shorter if it's a hunting rifle and the majority of your shooting isn't going to be from one side of the mountain to the other......Cliff

[Crimsonboat]

Thanks everyone for the information provided. I guess to clarify a little I am primarily building this rifle just because I am wanting it to be precise out to hopefully 800 or maybe someday 1000 yards. But I specifically dont want it to be cumbersome. I do plan on this rifle being my primary white tail rifle so I want it as light and maneuverable as possible. If I can get away with the 16" pencil barrel and still be happy with the performance then that's what I would get but if you were to tell me that an 18" is worth the extra weight because of x, y, z, I would have to consider that also. Same situation with the different profiles. So I guess my question is what would you get if you were trying to build a precision rifle knowing you would have to hike it up into the woods and likely shoot it off hand?

[DNP]

Honestly, I would build a 16” and run it. If you ever change your mind and don’t want to build a whole separate rifle, you can change the barrel or build a second upper. 

[98Z5V]

  On 11/23/2019 at 3:35 AM, Crimsonboat said:

Thanks everyone for the information provided. I guess to clarify a little I am primarily building this rifle just because I am wanting it to be precise out to hopefully 800 or maybe someday 1000 yards. But I specifically dont want it to be cumbersome. I do plan on this rifle being my primary white tail rifle so I want it as light and maneuverable as possible. If I can get away with the 16" pencil barrel and still be happy with the performance then that's what I would get but if you were to tell me that an 18" is worth the extra weight because of x, y, z, I would have to consider that also. Same situation with the different profiles. So I guess my question is what would you get if you were trying to build a precision rifle knowing you would have to hike it up into the woods and likely shoot it off hand?

Expand  

This is some good info to go from, right here.

And, @DNP has a great point...   You're a barrel-change away if you don't think that 16" gets it done at 800 yards.  And a 16" can get it done out there... 

If I were to do it, and make this gun, with that list of specifications....   Aero Precision M5 upper and lower, Aero M5 Atlas S-ONE 12" M-LOK handguard.  That's about the lightest freefloat rail that you'll find, that isn't made out of crazy materials.  This one:

https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m5-atlas-s-one-m-lok-handguard

18" midlength gas barrel from BA.  One of these two, right here - you just pick whether you want steel, or stainless steel:

https://www.ballisticadvantage.com/18-inch-308-gov-mid-cmv-modern-barrel.html

https://www.ballisticadvantage.com/18-inch-308-tacgov-mid-ss-premium-barrel.html

They both weigh 39 oz.  That stainless one, though, that Premium Series - that's a match barrel. 

Toss in a LaRue MBT-2S trigger  - on sale until December 31st for $80 - and buy up the cheapest ToolCraft nitrided .308 BCG that you can find online...   That would be the backbone of my build, if I were building this one.  It'll shoot the lights out, you'd be able to carry it around, it won't weigh a ton - but it's gonna be a 12lb rifle once you get the optic on it...   And it'll go 1000 yards with absolute ease, with 175gr match ammo. 

That's how I'd run it. 

 

 

[98Z5V]

If I went 16", I'd get this barrel  - 2 inches less swing-weight, and about 4oz lighter than the same 18" barrel:

https://www.ballisticadvantage.com/16-inch-308-tacgov-mid-ss-premium-barrel.html

Finish the barrel with a VG6 Gamma 300BLK brake - it's a 2-chamber brake, and shorter than the .308 brake, which is a 3-chamber.  Afterwards, you can add a VG6 CAGE device to it to cut down on the side-blast concussion.  You can add the CAGE device to the .308 brake - but it's not as long as the .308 brake (that extra chamber), so it won't work as well.

This stuff:

https://www.vg6precision.com/vg6-gamma-300blk

https://www.vg6precision.com/vg6-cage-device

 

[Cliff R]

I replaced that POS screw on piece of pipe on my 450 Bushmaster with the one in the pic.  It's not as light as the one pictured above but not too bad.  It's was also one of the fuel I found (about a zillion available) made in the USA.  Paid a bit more for it but no regrets........Cliff

 

 

[Crimsonboat]

  On 11/23/2019 at 4:11 AM, 98Z5V said:

This is some good info to go from, right here.

And, @DNP has a great point...   You're a barrel-change away if you don't think that 16" gets it done at 800 yards.  And a 16" can get it done out there... 

If I were to do it, and make this gun, with that list of specifications....   Aero Precision M5 upper and lower, Aero M5 Atlas S-ONE 12" M-LOK handguard.  That's about the lightest freefloat rail that you'll find, that isn't made out of crazy materials.  This one:

https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m5-atlas-s-one-m-lok-handguard

18" midlength gas barrel from BA.  One of these two, right here - you just pick whether you want steel, or stainless steel:

https://www.ballisticadvantage.com/18-inch-308-gov-mid-cmv-modern-barrel.html

https://www.ballisticadvantage.com/18-inch-308-tacgov-mid-ss-premium-barrel.html

They both weigh 39 oz.  That stainless one, though, that Premium Series - that's a match barrel. 

Toss in a LaRue MBT-2S trigger  - on sale until December 31st for $80 - and buy up the cheapest ToolCraft nitrided .308 BCG that you can find online...   That would be the backbone of my build, if I were building this one.  It'll shoot the lights out, you'd be able to carry it around, it won't weigh a ton - but it's gonna be a 12lb rifle once you get the optic on it...   And it'll go 1000 yards with absolute ease, with 175gr match ammo. 

That's how I'd run it. 

 

 

Expand  

That's funny, that's the exact handguard, bcg, and brake I was looking at getting. I have midwest industries rails on both my ar15's and the aero ones look pretty similar. Midwest doesnt have the rail without the top picatinny for the ar10 though. And I've read good things about the toolcraft bcg's and they have a pretty attractive price point. The vg6 brake, why the two port 300blk over the .308? I understand it will be lighter and shorter but wouldn't a three port brake perform better than the two port? I have been looking at a rock river arms match two stage trigger, it's about the same price point as the larue you mentioned. I have one on my 14.5 ar15 and I like it. As for the barrels I have looked at the BA ones and the only thing I noticed about the difference was that the faxon ones are about 4 oz lighter and have the teflon coating. The faxon ones are a bit more expensive but I'm ok with the $60 difference if I get a good coating that I dont have to worry about. Not having experience with either manufacturer though it's difficult to say which is best. I really just have to go with what I am reading about them and I dont seem to hear any complaints from either side. 

[98Z5V]

  On 11/23/2019 at 1:24 PM, Crimsonboat said:

That's funny, that's the exact handguard, bcg, and brake I was looking at getting. I have midwest industries rails on both my ar15's and the aero ones look pretty similar. Midwest doesnt have the rail without the top picatinny for the ar10 though. And I've read good things about the toolcraft bcg's and they have a pretty attractive price point. The vg6 brake, why the two port 300blk over the .308? I understand it will be lighter and shorter but wouldn't a three port brake perform better than the two port? I have been looking at a rock river arms match two stage trigger, it's about the same price point as the larue you mentioned. I have one on my 14.5 ar15 and I like it. As for the barrels I have looked at the BA ones and the only thing I noticed about the difference was that the faxon ones are about 4 oz lighter and have the teflon coating. The faxon ones are a bit more expensive but I'm ok with the $60 difference if I get a good coating that I dont have to worry about. Not having experience with either manufacturer though it's difficult to say which is best. I really just have to go with what I am reading about them and I dont seem to hear any complaints from either side. 

Expand  

Because it's shorter,lighter, and that 3rd port really doesn't get you "any more" over that 2-port.  Plus, you cannot add the CAGE device to a 3-port,and have it be effective.  I explained that, already, above. 

Stay AWAY, from that RRA 2-Stage trigger.  Research the internet on that one.  "Saving $5 bucks" isn't worth it - that trigger loses it's second stage and goes soft over time. There's 15 years of internet history that supports what i just told you.  Save a buck if you want, but you'll fuk yourself in the future.  Just get the LaRue trigger.

[Crimsonboat]

Pretty much everything is on order now to do the build, I will post a seperate build thread of everything when I start getting stuff. I ended up getting the 16" fluted barrel from faxon.