Hello! - Looking for help with Wilson Combat Build

[LevelHead]

Hello all! Glad there's a place like this on the 'net!

Let me cut to the chase, if I may. 🙂

My history: AR owner for 25 years, have owned and built many, though this is my first upper build. I'm a very methodical "measure 10 times cut once" kind of guy. Used to own two Armalite AR10(T)s and loved them so wanted to reclaim my .308 AR glory. 

I built a Wilson Combat (WC) AR10 using all WC parts with the only exceptions being the charging handle (WC was out of stock) and the trigger since I like and had a LaRue MBT-2S on-hand. AR10s can be challenging, so I built with parts from the same source to minimize issues. 

Parts List:

• WC .308 Lower Billet (Armor Tuff black)
• WC .308 Upper Billet (Armor Tuff black) [not lightweight]
• WC .308 18" Super Sniper barrel (Armor Tuff black)
• WC Thread protector (rockset in place)
• WC Rifle Length gas tube as spec'd for the barrel
• WC .875 low profile non-adjustable gas block as recommended on the barrel page
• WC Lower parts kit
• WC Super-Stoc Retro-Fit AR10 Buffer kit (Carbine-length which is the only one they sell)
• WC AR10 14.6 Handguard and WC pistol Grip
• LaRue MBT-2S trigger
• Radian Raptor .308 Charging Handle

 

Ammo used for its maiden voyage was Federal Gold Match .308 168gr. 

The rifle fires without exploding, so that's a plus. 🙂

Symptoms:

• It's short-stroking
• Empty shells are just kind of dribbling out instead of being thrown
• It's not feeding a second round
• It will not lock back on an empty mag when firing
• It WILL lock back if I manually charge it, and charging is smooth as expected
• The brass is all scratched up, both on the rim and on the side
• There are brass shavings all over the bolt face
• The Radian charging handle has been worn to the metal on its ridges (don't think this is related to firing given how it works)

Troubleshooting I've done:

• Manually cycling the action (charging) with a snap cap causes the snap cap to properly eject across the room and in the right direction
• Checked gas key alignment (BCG minus the bolt slides easily onto the gas tube)
• Checked the gas rings (BCG does not drop from its own weight if put on the table bolt-down)
• Can blow air through the barrel with the chamber closed off and air moves through the gas tube

Troubleshooting I have not yet done: 

• Remove the gas block and check for burs
• Scope the barrel and check gas port alignment

What I think is happening, and I'm happy to be proven wrong: 

In my mind, after first going right to under-gas, I think it might be over-gassed which might be causing the bolt-carrier to not be able to pull the empty shell out of the chamber in a timely fashion since it's trying to do so while the case is still pushed against the cylinder wall during extraction. This could explain the scratching on the side of the shells as well as the shavings due to the extractor claw spinning on the case while the case is resisting extraction. 

That about covers it. Thoughts? Other suggested troubleshooting steps? 

Thanks!

[98Z5V]

12 minutes ago, LevelHead said:

WC .308 18" Super Sniper barrel (Armor Tuff black)

 

12 minutes ago, LevelHead said:

WC Super-Stoc Retro-Fit AR10 Buffer kit (Carbine-length which is the only one they sell)

Give me the measurement-specifics on these 2 things, and I'll give suggestions.  I think I know what it is already, but meen the details on the components. 

Take a pic of your gas tube, in the upper receiver, BCG removed.  I'd like to see how far it protrudes into your upper receiver.

EDIT - post links to the 2 WC components that you bought, and I'll figure out the specifics on the parts themselves.

Edited August 28, 2022 by 98Z5V

[Rsquared]

Welcome aboard from Maryland.

[LevelHead]

6 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

 

Give me the measurement-specifics on these 2 things, and I'll give suggestions.  I think I know what it is already, but meen the details on the components. 

Take a pic of your gas tube, in the upper receiver, BCG removed.  I'd like to see how far it protrudes into your upper receiver.

EDIT - post links to the 2 WC components that you bought, and I'll figure out the specifics on the parts themselves.

Thanks!

Barrel: https://shopwilsoncombat.com/BARREL-308-WINCHESTER-SUPER-SNIPER-18-FLUTED-STAINLESS-GLASS-BEAD-1-10/productinfo/TR-308SSRG18FT10/

Receiver extension/buffer: https://shopwilsoncombat.com/SUPER-STOC-RETRO-FIT-KIT-AR10/productinfo/TR-SUPERSTOC-K-10/

Pic of the gas tube attached: 

 

 

[LevelHead]

15 minutes ago, Rsquared said:

Welcome aboard from Maryland.

Thanks!

[edgecrusher]

Welcome. Gas tube is good. Recoil system measurements and weight of buffer is needed. I would also be willing to bet small gas port on your barrel, WC has been consistently under with their barrels. 
 

 

Have no worries. A solid hour of your time between posts and part changes is all that’s needed!

[98Z5V]

1 hour ago, LevelHead said:

Thanks!

Barrel: https://shopwilsoncombat.com/BARREL-308-WINCHESTER-SUPER-SNIPER-18-FLUTED-STAINLESS-GLASS-BEAD-1-10/productinfo/TR-308SSRG18FT10/

Receiver extension/buffer: https://shopwilsoncombat.com/SUPER-STOC-RETRO-FIT-KIT-AR10/productinfo/TR-SUPERSTOC-K-10/

Pic of the gas tube attached: 

 

 

Gas tube is good.  We;ll look at the other stuff in the recoil and gas systems now.

[98Z5V]

I need recoil system specs, and i gas port diameter in that WC Barrel that you received.

Both my WC .260 barrels shipped with undersized gas ports.  I fixed that myself. 

I'm super-curious at the recoil system that they sent you. 

[LevelHead]

1 hour ago, edgecrusher said:

Welcome. Gas tube is good. Recoil system measurements and weight of buffer is needed. I would also be willing to bet small gas port on your barrel, WC has been consistently under with their barrels. 
 

 

Have no worries. A solid hour of your time between posts and part changes is all that’s needed!

Thanks. I'm not terribly worried. I'd be more annoyed that a barrel from a company like Wilson Combat would be out of spec. I've seen some other threads where that's been the issue. I've got all the parts for making a 16" lightweight rifle on the way, too, so anything learned will be applied there. Knowledge is always valuable. 

[98Z5V]

This is the first full-on WC gun that we've had here, to diagnose.  I've told them, myself, about the issues with recoil systems, and specifically about the gas port diameters in their .260 Rem barrels...   and they don't listen. 

.260 Rem barrels from WC are LIGHTS OUT barrels. If you work on them.  The barrel is a 20" rifle gas barrel, 0.750" journal diameter, and WC just fuks it all up and ships it with a 0.070" gas port diameter.  It SHOULD be a 0.080" gas post diameter.  Found this out the hard way  - money, reloads, ammo, powder, etc. 

WC fucked it all up on their .260 barrel, but I fixed mine.  Fixed the 2nd one I bought from them (badass barrel), before I ever installed it.  I knew better, right outta the gate.

They make great, super-accurate barrels.  They need to FIRE THE GUY that's telling them gas port diameters.  He's clueless.  We have to fix most of them that come out of WC. 

[LevelHead]

9 minutes ago, 98Z5V said:

I need recoil system specs, and i gas port diameter in that WC Barrel that you received.

Both my WC .260 barrels shipped with undersized gas ports.  I fixed that myself. 

I'm super-curious at the recoil system that they sent you. 

Buffer spring is 11" long and has 26 coils (assuming I counted the end coils right)

Buffer is 3.845oz

Gas tube is rifle length. Happy to measure something more specific. 

I don't have pin gauges or numbered drill bits. Best i've got is digital calipers at the moment. 

 

[shooterrex]

My Wilson 6ARC barrel also had an undersized gas port. The 6.5 Creedmoor barrel from Wilson was the proper size.

Your buffer is a little light. 5 and a half oz range buffers seem to work better in the large frame guns.

[98Z5V]

6 minutes ago, LevelHead said:

Buffer spring is 11" long and has 26 coils (assuming I counted the end coils right)

Buffer is 3.845oz

WC sucks in the recoil system department, and don't know what they're doing.  They often compromise this in the gas system department, as well.  They need to get ahold of themselves, as a "premium manufacturer"  I hope they read this.  I'll talk to their "armorer" here, if he wants to join, and have a discussion. 

My advice - shiit-can the entire recoil system, entirely.  Save the oarts for an AR15 build.  You need a 5.4oz buffer (not a 3.8oz buffer), and you need a spring that can handle that  - and it's not their spring that they sent you, if it was "tuned: for that weakling buffer weight.  Get rid of both. Trashcan, unless you save them for an AR15 build, pending specs.

Buy this recoil system:

Don't look back, don't be scared.  Just do it.

  https://www.armalite.com/SACItem.aspx?Item=AR10REKIT01&ReturnURL=/Armalite/Product-Category/AR10-Parts-Accessories/Lower-Receiver-Parts&Category=ac614400-ff09-4cdf-9d35-419a654e7201

THEN, we need to look at your gas port diameter.  If you get that recoil system, and we fix your gas port diameter - your gas tube is good - you'll have a rifle that will eat any ammo, anytime, all the time.

[98Z5V]

I can't believe Wilson Combat fucked up a factory rifle - with all the shiit that they talk about "superior firearms...  "

I have a pile of Wilson Combat barrels, and they truly do "Shoot lights out" - their AR barrels are badss, amongst the very best. 

They can't figure out the Larger Frame gun, though? For real?!

I know they know know what they're doing with the gas port sizes on the .260 Rem barrels -they're OFF on that.  By far. Otherwise, badass .260 barrel.  Fix that, WC, unfuk your gas port diameter  -  I already told you it needs to be 0.080" on the 20" rufle gas barrel  - same thing for the 6.5C barrel - same cartridge, for all intents and purposes. 

Instead, they ship that barrel under-gassed, with a 0.070" gas port diayclemeter.  THey might learn, one day.  Maybe.

I FULLY TRUST the accuracy of Wilson Combat AR barrels.  I CANNOT TRUST the gas port diameter of ANY Wilson Combat barrels -that are not 5.56 barrels. 

If you buy a Wilson Combat barrel, it WILL shoot lights out,  If it's in a large-frame AR, that might be for one round, if it doesn't cycle, because the gas port diameter is fucked up.

Let's discuss this , WC.  Talk about  Your gas-port guys need to be fired.

Just my opinion, after fixing your amazing barrels, and making them truly function. 

[LevelHead]

16 minutes ago, 98Z5V said:

WC sucks in the recoil system department, and don't know what they're doing.  They often compromise this in the gas system department, as well.  They need to get ahold of themselves, as a "premium manufacturer"  I hope they read this.  I'll talk to their "armorer" here, if he wants to join, and have a discussion. 

My advice - shiit-can the entire recoil system, entirely.  Save the oarts for an AR15 build.  You need a 5.4oz buffer (not a 3.8oz buffer), and you need a spring that can handle that  - and it's not their spring that they sent you, if it was "tuned: for that weakling buffer weight.  Get rid of both. Trashcan, unless you save them for an AR15 build, pending specs.

Buy this recoil system:

Don't look back, don't be scared.  Just do it.

  https://www.armalite.com/SACItem.aspx?Item=AR10REKIT01&ReturnURL=/Armalite/Product-Category/AR10-Parts-Accessories/Lower-Receiver-Parts&Category=ac614400-ff09-4cdf-9d35-419a654e7201

THEN, we need to look at your gas port diameter.  If you get that recoil system, and we fix your gas port diameter - your gas tube is good - you'll have a rifle that will eat any ammo, anytime, all the time.

 

Roger that. 

Armalite kit is out of stock at Armalite so bought two from EuroOptic. 

Bought myself an M1 Pin Gage set which will be here Tuesday. 

[LevelHead]

14 minutes ago, 98Z5V said:

I can't believe Wilson Combat fucked up a factory rifle - with all the shiit that they talk about "superior firearms...  "

I have a pile of Wilson Combat barrels, and they truly do "Shoot lights out" - their AR barrels are badss, amongst the very best. 

They can't figure out the Larger Frame gun, though? For real?!

I know they know know what they're doing with the gas port sizes on the .260 Rem barrels -they're OFF on that.  By far. Otherwise, badass .260 barrel.  Fix that, WC, unfuk your gas port diameter  -  I already told you it needs to be 0.080" on the 20" rufle gas barrel  - same thing for the 6.5C barrel - same cartridge, for all intents and purposes. 

Instead, they ship that barrel under-gassed, with a 0.070" gas port diayclemeter.  THey might learn, one day.  Maybe.

I FULLY TRUST the accuracy of Wilson Combat AR barrels.  I CANNOT TRUST the gas port diameter of ANY Wilson Combat barrels -that are not 5.56 barrels. 

If you buy a Wilson Combat barrel, it WILL shoot lights out,  If it's in a large-frame AR, that might be for one round, if it doesn't cycle, because the gas port diameter is fucked up.

Let's discuss this , WC.  Talk about  Your gas-port guys need to be fired.

Just my opinion, after fixing your amazing barrels, and making them truly function. 

 

That's crazy. How does a company with a reputation like Wilson Combat put out something so reliant on proper tolerance that doesn't work right out of the box - when mated with the same company's recommended parts! Bonkers. 

Knowing that AR10s can be finicky I bought all the parts from one "good" vender in the hopes that precisely this kind of thing would not happen. 

[98Z5V]

Directly from WC:

We manufacture all of our AR models to be the most reliable and accurate rifles and carbines for hunting, competition, long-range, or short-range tactical use. We control the quality of every major component in our ARs to ensure that they will last for many years of service. We continually refine our parts and engineering to give you the best shooting performance.

Also, from WC:

"

Because of the nature of the AR parts business and varying pressures of commercially available ammunition, Wilson Combat cannot guarantee function in customer built AR rifles. We recommend all components be installed by a competent rifle-smith. 

 

If you assemble a firearm with Wilson Combat components and it fails to function, you first need to check the fit of the barrel to the gas block and the overall condition of your rifle’s gas system/bolt carrier group to ensure your system isn’t leaking gas. As buffers and springs play a role in overall reliability, the use of an aftermarket style buffer system is not recommended. When using an adjustable gas block, reliability is best achieved at the fully open setting without any gas port restriction. 

Wilson Combat will not troubleshoot customer built firearms/uppers.

 

If you feel a Wilson Combat component is defective, please return the component only to us using our Return Form. Shipping to Wilson Combat is the responsibility of the consumer."

 

Both my .260 Rem barrels had gas ports that were undersized, and I had to fix that.  I learned from the first one, and fixed the second one as soon as I received it.

Gas port drilling was fucked up - I had to use Armalite AR-10 gas tubes in ALL my WC barrels, because WC thinks that "in-between" gas port locations are okay for consumers. That's BOTH .260s, the .338 Fed Barrel, AND the .358 Win Barrel.  Yes, I have WC barrels  - and they DO SHOOT! 

 

Once you fix them.

 

Just think - I'll buy my 7mm-08 barrel from them -because I KNOW it will shoot.  It will be deadass accurate, like all the others I have from them. 

I just know I'll have to "fix it first" to make it run right.  That gs port diameter will be off, as well as the gas port drilling location, again -and I'll have to use a different gs tube to make it run right....

 

Thanks, WC.  Hat's off to you fellas.  Fix your AR gun barrels already. 

 

Oh, special, one for you WC...  

Love your barrels, accurate AF.  You need to fix them before they leave your shop, though, so I don't have to.  For that, you get an extra

 

Love making your barrels right - once they're fixed, nothing else out there can match them.  Nothing. 

[98Z5V]

3 minutes ago, LevelHead said:

 

That's crazy.

As you can see -I have a love/hate relationship with them.

Their AR barrels are fucking CRAZY ACCURATE...  after you FIX THEM, and make them run in an AR gun. 

Some of the most accurate AR barrels I've ever shot, from WC.  I had to work on every single one of them to make them shoot, though.  (2x) .260 Rem barrels, a .338 Fed barrel, a .358 Win barrel.  At this time of night, I'm probably forgetting another WC barrel that I've blindly put my trust into, and fixed to make run. 

They FUCKING SHOOT LIGHTS OUT!!!  Once you fix them. 

(Pay attention, WC...  contact me privately of this offends you_..)

^^^  Or, just nut up, and let's do it LIVE...

 

[98Z5V]

23 minutes ago, LevelHead said:

That's crazy. How does a company with a reputation like Wilson Combat put out something

... dit dit dit...

My question exactly.  They need to fire the "AR GUY" that they have.  The 5.56 guy can keep his job - that's cookie-cutter shiit. 

That Large-Frame guy?  Their barrel GURU?...  he needs to find a cheaper apartment. He doesn't know what he's doing, and it's obvious over the years that I've been buying large-frame barrels.  First one was 2017 or 2018.  That first .260 Rem barrel that had a fucked up gas port diameter. 

I DEAL WITH the gas tube length problems, and the gas port diameter problems - because the barrels FUCKING SHOOT lights out. Unreal accuracy.

If, you're willing to put the work in to make them right, for a large-frame AR, in the first place. 

I'll still do it - I a;ready know now, how the barrel will come to me.  Gas port needs work, gas tube needs verified...  That's okay with me, based on the accuracy I have from them. 

"NO diamond is every really finished" I guess.  I'll finish it myself.    They can't seem to do that at the factory, so I'll take up their slack, and just DO IT LIVE!... 

[LevelHead]

While disassembling the extractor I was greeted with two springs and two o-rings. That seems a bit excessive to me but It’s been decades since ai’ve detail stripped an AR10. 

What say you?

 

 

[LevelHead]

Pic of brass from last range session. Bolt face was covered with brass shavings, too. 

This strikes me as a “the gas system is probably fucked up so lets over-compensate by stiffening the extractor” kind of “solution”. Any reason I shouldn’t remove the rings and second spring and beef them up one step at a time if needed? 

[shooterrex]

It is extracting so you probably want to put it back as it was.

When working on these guns it is better to only fix/change one thing at a time.

This seems to be a recoil system or gas system problem. Perhaps both.

[LevelHead]

It's best with any troubleshooting to only change one thing at a time. I'll just add it to the troubleshooting steps I'll be doing at the next range trip. First test is the new buffer extension/buffer/spring, all of which should arrive tomorrow. 

[98Z5V]

18" (.308 Win) rifle gas barrel with a 0.750" journal diameter will need a gas port diameter that's around 0.096".  With your 0.875" journal diameter, you can drop 0.005" off that number.  You should see a gas port diameter that's 0.090" minimum.

[LevelHead]

4 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

18" (.308 Win) rifle gas barrel with a 0.750" journal diameter will need a gas port diameter that's around 0.096".  With your 0.875" journal diameter, you can drop 0.005" off that number.  You should see a gas port diameter that's 0.090" minimum.

Got my pin gage set. I measure the gas port at .088"