Obvious benefit to running a ladder for handloaders.

[NF1E]

In the process of working up a usable load for Sierra 135 gn fb varminters for one of my rifles. 

 

Bula Defense Systems M14 type XM21 version 1 ser #3. Heavy Bula barrel with the rest of the parts from Bula except for Trigger which is Shootingsight EBR with lightened hammer. Chassis is JAE with 1 turn on the barrel tensioner.  Scope is a Night Force ATACR 5-25 on TPS med rings.

 

Ammo is hand loaded using MEN berdan cases freshly annealed, TULA KV-7.62 N primers igniting Varget. Starting load on ladder is 45gn  up to 47.5gn in 1/2 gn increments.

 

Target one is for sighters with 5 rnds of MEN surplus on the center to warm things up, then 2 sighters from each different load as the morning progressed. Ambient temp is 45 degs with a light breeze.

2nd target is for the 10 rnd groups at 100 yds. Barrel was allowed to cool down to the point my hand could hold onto it forward of the gas system. Dry Otis patches were pulled through barrel between changing loads. 

Notice the obvious on the 46 gn load.  1 moa max spread with a average of under .5 moa for 10 rnds at 100 yds. Even the poorest group had an average of under 1 moa. Worst spread was 2 moa with the 47 gn load.  Whatta Hobby!

 

 

 

[98Z5V]

14 hours ago, NF1E said:

Starting load on ladder is 45gn  up to 47.5gn in 1/2 gn increments.

The only thing I've ever run 1/2 grain on for load guassing is .300 Win Mag and .338 Lapua Mag.  Just bacuase the case volume is so high.  70+ on the Win Mag and 90+ on the .338 LM.

Everything else is guess work, because you'll miss something, somewhere.  For Large Frame ARs, I run 0.3 apart until I find something, then step that down.  For Small Frame ARs, I always run 0.2gr apart.  Until I find something.  There's only 2 loads in my life that I ever started 0.1gr apart, and that was my 5.56 75gr Mk262-beaters, and the newest 6 ARC 108gr load. 

I think you're way off, starting out 0.5gr apart - there's too much that you can miss, that far apart.

[NF1E]

Now, that's funny.  The .5 gn is just to get in the ball park my friend.  From there much more refinements gets done over a period of time including bullet jump.  If you noticed, this is for an M14 type semi auto and .5 moa average is more than acceptable for most shooters.

I am replacing a custom 136 gn fb that has worked well for me for years but is no longer available. The Sierra 135 fb varmint are widely available.  Whatta Hobby!

[98Z5V]

14 hours ago, NF1E said:

If you noticed, this is for an M14 type semi auto

I noticed.  

[NF1E]

Loaded up 1 range box of 100 yesterday with 46 gn of Varget +- .02 gn which is the weight of 1 kernal. Using the RCBS Matchmaster makes this task almost too simple.

Today is dedicated to 22 rf. Got some old 40x buddies coming over to my range. I will be shooting a CZ-457 with 21" Lilja barrel and giving them a run for their money. Last match with a CX-457 with a 16.5" barrel I left them in the dust. Should be even better today.  Of course they blamed their lack of quality ammo for their losses. Typical. Blame everything but the trigger monkey.  Rifle and a few test groups after re-barreling. I think she is ready.  Whatta Hobby!

 

 

 

[NF1E]

Re: Changing bullet types for the season.

Will be using 46 gn of Varget with the 135 Sierra fb for awhile. Shot a few 100 yd 10 rnd grps rapid fire this morning using one of my M14 type rifles off a bipod checking for consistency with barrel heating. We are good to go.
Upper left was 9 shots cold clean bore with scope correction for the one hit in the X. Rest were just fun for the moment. The lone shot on the center bull was with another rifle I am working on. Whatta Hobby!

[Magwa]

In this day of components being scarce, I like the ladder method for finding optimal charge weight and I go in .03 grain increments till I have a node that shows me a real flat spot where increments of 2 or three all show the same velocity then i know that powder charge is good and my barrel likes it , then I just have to find bullet seating depth. the whole process can be done in less that 30 rounds and has given me my very best long range loads....

[NF1E]

3 hours ago, Magwa said:

I am guessing you meant .3 gn increments for finding a node.  .03 is barely larger than a singer kernel of powder.   Whatta Hobby!

 

[98Z5V]

12 hours ago, NF1E said:

 

You only quoted what he stated, but you didn't reply.  I'd like to know your reply.

Don't know what powder you're using, but I measure down to the 10th for some loads, and the digital scale does it well, and the chrono numbers support the decision, with single-digit SDs, when I find the right load.

No, he probably means 0.3 grain charges on ladders, and that's probably for larger calibers.  I do the same thing.  On smaller calibers, I run 0.2 grains until I find a node, during load development.

Please explain why your half grain charge load development is superior.  I'd like to hear your story, instead of seeing you critique other people for what they do.

Like I said before, the only thing I half-grain is .338 Lapua Magnum, and my .300 Win Mag - and that was just to start, and only because of the case capacity - 70 on the Win Mag and 90 on the .338 Lapua, for those.  You seem to think half grains are perfectly fine for the 30-06 going through an M14, so I'd like to hear about it.  Tell me about bent op rods, too.

[98Z5V]

12 hours ago, NF1E said:

I am guessing you meant .3 gn increments for finding a node.  .03 is barely larger than a singer kernel of powder.   Whatta Hobby!

This was probably your comment, but you fucked the quote all up...  Tell me if I'm wrong... 

WHATTA HOBBY!!!

[NF1E]

My comment was, as written, I was suggesting that he meant .3 grain increments and not the .03 as written.  A kernal of Varget weighs right around .02.  Pretty simple. Never have been all that good on a keyboard. Thanks for letting me know what I thought I had replied didn't come across.

 

When setting up my original ladders, I use .5 grn as rough determination using min and max from loading charts to find my general node for .30 cal loads. Then I work in .1 gn  increments for .5 gn either side of the chosen node. Once the load has been found, my actual loading is down to .02gn, or down to the kernal, for my precision loads. Generic loading, that I run, is usually only +- .1 gn because that's close enough for most bullseye shooting.  My precision builds for the M14 are getting down to the .5 moa area and bolt rifles under that.   It's all good. Photo is of one 10 rnd grp with a 6.5 creedmoor bolt rifle after completion of load development. Whatta Hobby!

 

 

 

[Magwa]

yep 51 grains then 51.3, then 51.6 then 51.9 then 52.2etc....... my bad...

Example my 6.5x284 Norma when i developed the load when i got to 48.2,48.5 and 48.8 they all were within 2 FPS velocity I took 48.5 as my load no need to test further as all three were the same velocity i took the middle so i was good either way.. seated some berger 140 hybrids at 20 thou,off the lands shot two three shot groups had slightly stringing so i went to 30 shot two at 400 both center hits shot two at 800 both hits and shot three at 1k 2 out of three hits.. this load took total 23 rounds I am now in the 500 round range with this load and it still shoots sub 1/2 inch at 100 at 2968 FPS...and it shoots long targets as well as short.. this way worked for me, others mileage may very but this system works for all calibers and saves components... the last 6 shot string i choreographed was ....

2975,2970,2968,2968,2968and 2966  es of 9 and sd of 3.6 i can live with those numbers.......

Edited May 16, 2023 by Magwa

[NF1E]

Thanks for the clarification.  Just such a good feeling when things work out. Love the Berger bullets. I used their 136 gn 30 cal fb for years until they stopped producing them. Have not managed to get anything quite as good. Did take me half a season to find exactly the load I wanted. Then of course different temps can make a world of difference.

Whatta Hobby!

[98Z5V]

15 hours ago, Magwa said:

Example my 6.5x284 Norma when i developed the load when i got to 48.2,48.5 and 48.8 they all were within 2 FPS velocity

When you hit something like that, it means you're not burning all the powder inside the barrel.  More powder won't make it go faster, because it's not burning up within what you need it to burn up in - the barrel.  All that excess is burning up outside the barrel, and has no more affect on the projectile at that point.  Speeds don't increase with more powder, because you ran out of barrel length to burn that powder inside of, and impart energy onto that projectile.  All the extra powder is just a fireball at the end of the barrel. 

At that point, if you want to change the speeds, increase them, you need to change to a faster burning powder.  If you like the speeds, go back to the last charge that had an increase in speed, and develop that load - if it was an accuracy node, and had no pressure signs. 

[Magwa]

Yep burn rate ,barrel length, barrel make, primer when you get it all working together it is a awesome thing........

[98Z5V]

We hit this issue with @JBMatt, working on a good 77gr load for his 13.9" gun he's been shooting at the matches.  We were out at the SDTF, and he was showing me all the last weeks testing data, and the more powder you threw at it, made zero difference in speeds.  Barrel is too short, everything you try burns up after it gets out of the barrel.  And trying to get the speeds up on that short little fucker was pretty important, just to use it at the matches.  

I recommended something to him that I'd never, ever recommend to anyone else.  I only did it because I know how meticulous he is with his own loading process, and load development.  I told him to try Reloder 10X, and see what happens.  That powder is fas as fuk for a 77gr 5.56 projectile, to the point of being dangerous.  Nobody should ever try that, if they're reading this.

But, it's his current load, works great, and he 2nd-round shot the 715 yard target two months ago.  No bipod, no bag, just gun.  In that class, you just have to "deal with it..."  

FWIW, I'd never even think to try to shoot a 13.9" 5.56 gun at 715 yards.   But that crazy bastard has it figured out...  

[JBMatt]

On 5/17/2023 at 7:08 PM, 98Z5V said:

We hit this issue with @JBMatt, working on a good 77gr load for his 13.9" gun he's been shooting at the matches.  We were out at the SDTF, and he was showing me all the last weeks testing data, and the more powder you threw at it, made zero difference in speeds.  Barrel is too short, everything you try burns up after it gets out of the barrel.  And trying to get the speeds up on that short little fucker was pretty important, just to use it at the matches.  

I recommended something to him that I'd never, ever recommend to anyone else.  I only did it because I know how meticulous he is with his own loading process, and load development.  I told him to try Reloder 10X, and see what happens.  That powder is fas as fuk for a 77gr 5.56 projectile, to the point of being dangerous.  Nobody should ever try that, if they're reading this.

But, it's his current load, works great, and he 2nd-round shot the 715 yard target two months ago.  No bipod, no bag, just gun.  In that class, you just have to "deal with it..."  

FWIW, I'd never even think to try to shoot a 13.9" 5.56 gun at 715 yards.   But that crazy bastard has it figured out...  

Powder burn rate and how it affects EVERYTHING really became apparent with that little short barrel.  Learned a lot that isn't as apparent with 16"-24" barrels.  Couldn't get the results I wanted with the "right" powders.  Started with the standard heavy for caliber powders with an emphasis on temp stable.  Varget:  slow, inaccurate and terrible SD's.  Great in so many other applications.  Worked my way up the chart to Accurate 2520, IMR-4064, H4895 and then IMR 8208-XBR.  Was hoping for good results with that, being that it shoots .5 MOA @ 2700 fps with single digit SD's in my 18" comp gun and is on the faster end of heavy for caliber powders.  Nope.  On to H335 and Benchmark.  Still nothing good, but good as I had gotten to that point.  Loaded 120 and shot a match.  It wasn't even close to what I need for that competition.  Needs to be sub MOA, and everything up to this point was closer to 2 MOA than not.  In a last ditch effort, and going into questionable territory, went to IMR-3031 and RE 10x.  3031 still wasn't working but then 1 step faster to the 10x and there it was.  Solid speed @ 2,500 fps, low teens SD's and sub MOA.  Loaded that up and shot the match and I'm pretty sure that was the best showing I've had with that gun, even though the score didn't really reflect it, the load shot well.  It was interesting to watch all those other powder get to about 2,550 fps and then it just didn't matter how much more powder you put to it, the speeds just flat lined.

[NF1E]

Load has been established.   155 gn Berger hybrid target over 44.5 gn of Varget in MEN berdan cases set off with Tula berdan primers. Now it's time for the trigger monkey to work on his part of the equation.  Whatta Hobby!

 

 

 

 

[NF1E]

Target for today. Getting there. Rifle and ammo are capable of the 10-X designation. Trigger monkey needs some work.  Whatta Hobby!

 

 

 

[Cunuckgaucho]

I'd say the trigger monkey seems to be earning his bananas 

[98Z5V]

@JBMatt's 10X load with the 77 seconds projectiles and the 13.9" barrel corked the 780 yard target this weekend - just inline with the dope on the gun.  That's the baddest little 5.56 gun I've ever seen shoot.