OCW CFE223 & 168gr A-Max

[seasprite]

What mag are you using ? Coal 2.817"

I have the 2 factory mags plus 1 pmag the factory mags I can go as long as 2.840" but not sure how they would feed. The pmags I can go as far as 2.820".

[survivalshop]

Mine are loaded to around 2.795-6 " , seems to work best for me .

If your primers are falling out or too easy to install ( WW is one of the primers I use ) the brass could be fatigued from over pressure & is done . This could also be why some of your groups are spreading out .

Your Chrono results don't look bad , your SD & ES will go hand in hand when you get it down low . Looks like they are good also . I always try for single digits ,but too many variables to get it there & your 11-15 is good enough for sure.

Just because the load is fast ,doesn't make it accurate. Your 2650 fps is what I am loaded for or close to it ,but if you are fatiguing the brass , you won't get many loadings out of them .

All Powders exhibit different characteristics in the pressure area , one may be fine at a certain velocity , but another may exhibit signs of over pressure .

I use WC 846 ball powder , not a pull down , but surplus & I have been using it for twenty years . I just opened my last 8 # keg. & I use 40 grs. of it (depending on case manufacturer ) for my loads & that came from a lot of testing because there is no load data on this powder & it will very from lot to lot .

I would check to make sure nothing is loose on your scope/mount or any thing else , like the barrel nut .

You have good potential groups & some that are spread out  . a good indication some thing could be loose .

[seasprite]

Thanks survivalshop, I think the main thing thats loose is the nut behind the trigger still trying to get used to driving this thing, some days I have a good steady hold other days it looks like an earthquake through the scope. I know the more I shoot it and keep my fundamentals in my mental checklist I should get better.

I decided to do review of my loading procedures and setup since this is the first rifle cartridge I've loaded for and found a problem. I chambered one of my reloads and darn near had to mortar it to get it out so I figured I'm not setting the shoulder back far enough. I check extraction back when I started this adventure with a dummy round and had no problems then maybe I had some oil in the chamber that aided in the easy extraction. Well I don't have case gage yet been meaning to get one so I did the next best thing I smoked the shoulder on a piece of brass and chambered it and confirmed solid contact. So I readjusted my sizing die to bump the shoulder back a little more using the smoke and easy extraction to let me know when I have set the shoulder back far enough.

I guess I get to review my load now that I set the shoulder back some. 

[MikedaddyH]

Seasprite,

Are you trimming and champhering your brass before you reload the rounds ?? If not , this might be why the round is jammed into the chamber.

[seasprite]

Seasprite,

Are you trimming and champhering your brass before you reload the rounds ?? If not , this might be why the round is jammed into the chamber.

Yes I'm trimming to 2.005 plus chamfering and deburring. I almost took some pics of smoked cases to show the progression of the carbon transfer from full shoulder contact to none I wish I would of now so you could see the difference. Its kind of a pain doing it this way because I kept cleaning the chamber after every test to keep the chamber shoulder from building up carbon giving me a false reading. I made up 3 test rounds today and went to range hand cycled all 3 by hand with no problems extracting the chambered rounds then shot all 3 with no pressure signs. Since I had to do this I'm think I'm going to start my load development over since this was a major change all part of learning I guess I'll get there though just may take while :tweed:

[planeflyer21]

I never thought about getting a "false reading" on cases with scorch marks.

With pistol ammo, I've noticed when working up loads, the hotter they are the less scorch that appears, presumably due to the increased pressure ensuring all the burn goes down barrel.

Jon

[seasprite]

I never thought about getting a "false reading" on cases with scorch marks.

With pistol ammo, I've noticed when working up loads, the hotter they are the less scorch that appears, presumably due to the increased pressure ensuring all the burn goes down barrel.

Jon

I think I need some pics. I took a case that was sized with the old settings on the die and took this pic so you can understand what I,m talking about.

The case on the left is just smoked so you can see the before.

The case in the middle was sized with the old setting you can see there is no carbon left on the shoulder because I had no head space from not setting the shoulder back far enough and wouldn't be able to unload the gun because the cartridge would be stuck in the chamber.

The case on the right was sized with my new settings as you can see the only contact is where the shoulder and case body meet and haven't had any trouble removing a live round from the chamber with this setting but I've only tried 3 so far.

[survivalshop]

What manufacturers die set you using ?

[seasprite]

What manufacturers die set you using ?

Lee dies with the Lee classic turret press. I'm currently using it in single stage mode by removing the indexing rod.

[survivalshop]

It is a good idea to use a case gage , but I never have to this day . I have followed the die manufactures instructions on all my die sets & have never had a problem with case shoulder set back .

I use the same method for all my die sets , but maybe I'm just lucky, some say that because different shell holders have different spec's , well they may & may not .

I raise the ram of the press , all the way up , I screw the sizing die till it touches the shell holder & then adjust it down a little more so as to slightly cam over when the ram is raised to the top . The word is slightly & thats to take up any play in the system & lock the die down & away you go .

[seasprite]

It is a good idea to use a case gage , but I never have to this day . I have followed the die manufactures instructions on all my die sets & have never had a problem with case shoulder set back .

I use the same method for all my die sets , but maybe I'm just lucky, some say that because different shell holders have different spec's , well they may & may not .

I raise the ram of the press , all the way up , I screw the sizing die till it touches the shell holder & then adjust it down a little more so as to slightly cam over when the ram is raised to the top . The word is slightly & thats to take up any play in the system & lock the die down & away you go .

This is what I did or thought I did <dontknow> I just followed the setup instructions that came with the die set. I guess I just didn't go far enough now I need to get back to the range for more testing. I kinda like telling the wife its important that I get this done ;D 

[seasprite]

It was a nice day today at the range the weather man said 97* HA! it was 75* when I got there and 80* when I left. My brass is good to go now since my sizing die is properly adjusted now no problems with ejecting a live round now just a quick pull on the charging handle and it comes right out. My OCW stayed the same to so now going to the seating depth test again and rechrony these loads and see were I,m at. see ya later

[NoFail]

Well thanks to this thread I picked up a pound of CFE 223 to try out. Somebody had some at Saturday gun show & I couldn't resist. I have a few hundred 168 Amax and am loading the rest of my on hand brass, about 50 pieces Winchester. Going with a starting charge of 47.3 gn CFE 223 for a few groups of 5, then a few 5 shot groups 47.5 gn, then same groupings 47.7, 47.9 & 48.1

gn CFE 223. See what happens should be fun...

No chrono though so, so I really want one.

I sorted the Winchester cases for weight (spreads less than 1 gn each group) & am seating to 2.800" average. I don't get consistent C.O.A.L.'s all the time. I have not learned yet if it's the equipment or components. Primers are Remington #9 1/2.

Thanks for the good idea seasprite, I am intrigued.

[survivalshop]

Its been raining since Friday & I'm on vacation & can't even shoot .

Damn you Debbie !

[seasprite]

Well thanks to this thread I picked up a pound of CFE 223 to try out. Somebody had some at Saturday gun show & I couldn't resist. I have a few hundred 168 Amax and am loading the rest of my on hand brass, about 50 pieces Winchester. Going with a starting charge of 47.3 gn CFE 223 for a few groups of 5, then a few 5 shot groups 47.5 gn, then same groupings 47.7, 47.9 & 48.1

gn CFE 223. See what happens should be fun...

No chrono though so, so I really want one.

I sorted the Winchester cases for weight (spreads less than 1 gn each group) & am seating to 2.800" average. I don't get consistent C.O.A.L.'s all the time. I have not learned yet if it's the equipment or components. Primers are Remington #9 1/2.

Thanks for the good idea seasprite, I am intrigued.

Cool  <thumbsup> I can't wait to see what kind of results you get. It be interesting to see if your accuracy noad will be the same as mine on the powder charge. I haven't started sorting by case weight yet that going to be my next step after testing seating depth again. I'm try to do all my development with once fired cases right now for consistency which means sometimes I have to go and shoot some of the PPU factory ammo so I can some cases to load bought a case of this stuff for $300.00 back at a gun show awhile back just for plinking and to use the brass for reloading.

I've got my next set of test rounds loaded for the seating depth test now I just have to get to the range. My loads are 2.815"-2.785" reduced by .005" for each set of 5 rounds.

So NoFail what type of rifle and barrel length are you running?

" Its been raining since Friday & I'm on vacation & can't even shoot .

Damn you Debbie !"

Sorry to here that survivalshop hope you get some good weather soon. Our a/c took a dump on us and there calling for 100*+ in the next couple of days can't wait for the repair guy to get here the only plus is right now the humidity is low so its been tolerable but that won't last long.

[unforgiven]

Wife decided to go to Ft.Meyers this week with friends. <laughs>

[NoFail]

seasprite, it's a 16" JP Enterprises Super Match Stainless, Cryogenic. And my brother in law showed up today at the house and we got to talking about everything. Short story is we both went halves on a new Forster Ultra 2 die set .308 Winchester & a PACT Professional XP Chronograph, we can hardly wait till the 3rd!!! Shipping from Midway....

That chrono has all the bells & whistles. Has tons of bullet types with their ballistics loaded into it, calculates trajectories, can hook up to lap top, etc., so no more shooting blind, pissing in wind... New dies should do us quite well too.....

[seasprite]

seasprite, it's a 16" JP Enterprises Super Match Stainless, Cryogenic. And my brother in law showed up today at the house and we got to talking about everything. Short story is we both went halves on a new Forster Ultra 2 die set .308 Winchester & a PACT Professional XP Chronograph, we can hardly wait till the 3rd!!! Shipping from Midway....

That chrono has all the bells & whistles. Has tons of bullet types with their ballistics loaded into it, calculates trajectories, can hook up to lap top, etc., so no more shooting blind, pissing in wind... New dies should do us quite well too.....

Man that sounds like a really nice rig(pics) how does it shoot? I know mine is capable of better than what I've posted here but the nut behind the trigger can't seem to stay tight ::) I guess I'll just have to keep going to the range till I get that nut fixed ;)

I'm glad you got a chrony and sounds like a nice one at that. Now we can compare numbers even though some of components are going to be different(i.e. brass and primers) it be nice to see if the data going to be close to what I'm getting. I'm wanting to go to the range with the chronograph this weekend for my seating depth test but its suppose to be 102* Sat. so I'm undecided right now.

Survivalshop, I think I saw on the news that Debbie finally left you so were you able to get out?

[NoFail]

seasprite, yes this should be fun to compare. It would be awesome if UPS shows up today with the new equipment. I will not shoot again until we get the chrono.

I have been to the range only three times since I got the scope & once went camping in the mountains & shot too 200 yards. Sometimes I can get up too three holes in paper touching from 100, with two holes off, always trying 5 round groups, various charges (mostly 43.5 gn) with IMR 4064, all 168 gn A-MAX, SMK & Nosler Ballistic Silver Tip. The Nosler's I haven't had real success with yet but the others show great promise.

Now the scope is a USO 1.5-6x28 FFP w/JNG reticule MOA/MOA. The reticule thickness isn't exactly great for precision and I bet I can do better with some fine cross hairs. I have a new SS 1-6x24 HD FFP mil/mil coming in I hope soon. The specs on that reticule looks to be finer lines, we'll see how it works. I know, still not ideal for precision being a 6x and all. I'm using a JP Enterprises JP EZ single stage trigger, in my gun it has a crisp 4.5 lb break. I was working up some loads with 168 gn A-MAX with the CFE 223 when I screwed up the RCBS sizer die. Ordered replacement parts, they came yesterday and are wrong. Can't load until new Forster Ultra dies show up with the chrono. And that's okay, those new dies will be way better. The brass for these loads is old Winchester .308 shot out of a bolt action. They are tarnished and I have been cleaning them up to look like new, very time consuming but gives me lots of good brass.

[seasprite]

Very nice NoFail <thumbsup>

I have to ask though what happen to your sizing die?

[NoFail]

I forgot to lube one case and F'd up the deprimer/neck sizing rod. Wasted the threads the neck sizer thingy where it screws onto the rod/shaft thing. Was the low end RCBS die anyway.

Guess what!!!! UPS did drop something off this afternoon  <thumbsup>

[seasprite]

Well I went and braved the heat yesterday to retest my seating depth after readjusting my sizing die for the shoulder problem I had and I can say now that setting the shoulder back didn't seem to have an effect on my loads but for safety sake I felt I had to retest all my work to make sure there was no change.

I did take the chronograph yesterday and came back with some interesting results I'm only going to post my Avg, es, sd for most of my groups I shot over 35 rounds yesterday and that would be to much to enter on here except for a couple that I had interesting results with.

2.815"

1:2629

2: n/a

3: n/a

4: n/a

5:2620

2.810"  AVG 2648 ES25 SD11

2.805"  AVG 2647 ES23 SD10

2.800"  AVG 2652 ES35 SD16

2.795"  AVG 2655 ES17 SD7

2.790"

1:2663    ES 27

2:2665    SD 12

3:2648  AVG 2655

4:2638

5:2665

2.785" TO DEEP HIGH PRESURE

avg2666 es46 sd14

The 2.790" really got me to wounder why I had 3 rounds less than 2fps apart so I decided to weigh my cases for that string to see if that might be the answer and here is what I found.

PPU once fired brass

1:176.4gr

2:176.4gr

3:176.5gr

4:176.6gr

5:178.8gr

So I guess my next step to reduce my es & sd #'s will be to weigh the cases might try +- .5gr for a 1gr spread after that I thought about trying uniforming the primer pocket and flash hole. Have you guy's done this and what were your results?

[survivalshop]

The whole reason to weigh your cases is because of volume . A heavy case case will be thicker & less volume of the thicker case will cause higher pressure & that will screw up your grouping .

I believe that's where some of our fliers come from , not just those ones you know you screw up, I can call a flier just about every time ,because I know I moved or some thing when the round capped off.

Since I started weighing brass my groups shrunk even with some of my worst triggers.

Its all about consistency , in powder charges, bullets , cases & your pulling the trigger.

Ya, that # 5 case is in a different category .

Your chrono results for loadings look good , now ya just need more trigger time with the load combo ya pick.

[seasprite]

I decided on my load but after looking at NoFail's data I'm going to do a seating depth test and chronograph the 47.1gr charge weight to see if my results are similar to his. If my velocities es & sd look good I may switch loads so here's my current load as it stands now.

168gr A-Max

48gr CFE 223

CCI 200 LR primers

PPU brass trimmed to 2.005"

neck tension .003

COAL 2.790"

Crimp .335"

I processed 160 pieces twice fired brass yesterday and today so far I weighed them out and divided them in to 20 piece lots with one lot only having a .3gr deference but most fall in a .5gr deference per 20. I know I didn't have to take it that tight but figured what the heck can't hurt. Since I was in the weighing mood I decided to weigh my primers :cookoo: to see how much of a deference there was & found a range of 5.0gr to 5.3gr with the majority weighing in at 5.2gr. Could this be just a deference in cup & anvil thickness or the priming compound? Does it make deference in the loads who knows? So I loaded up 20 with my weighed cases and weighed primers. I'll probably wait until I check the seating depth test for 47.1gr of powder before testing this starting run low on components so I'm going to have to restock before to long.

[NoFail]

seasprite, I'd be curious to see what happens for you if you tried Remington #9 1/2 primers. My SD's are lower than yours but why?  <dontknow>  I have 1500 remaining of those. I was told they have thick jacket walls and less prone to slam fire in a auto loader. It's why I use them anyway, but I'd like to try something different to have a look see.