Zebra644 Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 98Z5V- I have been around and used flash bangs for twenty years ( so close I have got nose bleeds in training ) Never count on a flash bang to do anything other than piss off and motivate and maybe give you 1 second of lead time. I have seen people that have never been exposed to the report of a flash bang just stand there and do nothing as if dazed. In this case I see it of little use in how I would handle this guy. Just saying it not worth all the comments. Assume everyone you come in contact with in this setting is UTI until proven otherwise. Zebra- Yes to question 1, never kept stats , but have never lost. As for the tazer, I have seen plenty of poor shots that resulted in only one barb catching them, and not effectively putting them down. And heminut I am not a LEO and never have been but teach and train with both military and LEO for twenty years. Would to love and chat but Okay I am attacking you but I am confused here please help me understand. You have fought people on bath salts , but dont keep stats? I remember every good knock out drag out fight I've ever had as a cop becasue I have a scar or was bruised trying to get them under control, and I learend from it. But your not LEO and train them? What kind of work do do you when you referred to your dept? How have you not been LEO but personally witnessed multiple taser incidents involving mental or drugged subjects? I do agree there are at times only 1 barb hits and obiously it wont work? I am sorry but I have been LEO for going on 10 years and was with County SWAT for 5 before my knee went, by the way I am 6'5'' and 240 and the as dad always told me no matter how big you are or tough or strong you may be, there is always some one out there bigger, tougher and stronger and will stomp a mud hole in your a$$. Now add crazy or chemicals to it and hold on. Training in a controlled atmosphere is one thing being out there when a seires and sequence of events that leed to the inability to use said infailible equiptment or it was made at beer thirty on a Friday is another. I do agree train, train, train. As per the policy and proceedure, every dept. in America is either Accredited or thier policy and proceedures follow very closely. Respectfully I call bullpoopy flag 20 yard pen, repeat 1 st down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Libertarian623 Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 5V= yes prior military 3 years US Army active duty 8 years reserves and NG, last 15 years working as contractor and now living the good quiet life in a nice Fire Department. Zebra - I teach officer's CQC, why because I am really good at one thing CQC. You are welcome to come train anytime with me or my officer's. . Most of my CQC contacts where as real as it gets. Why don't you PM me with a phone number and we will sort it all out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zebra644 Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 Ah that explains it, you just gave vague info and understandably so, and to one in my position I just needed clarification. There are a lot of keyboard commandos out there. Why don't you come here to me and we'll train you :)). PM inbound AFTER FURTHER REVIEW THE PLAY IS GOOD, RESET THE CLOCK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenmist Posted March 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 You're one of the LEOs on site: do you shoot or not, and articulate why. This is a little more simple than some are making it to be, believe it or not. Enough of the pecker checks ...my career is bigger than yours, B.S.. If the scenario gets you that fired up, that you cannot respond in a reasonable manner, let's just lock the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zebra644 Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) I would have tired a few more non-lethal i.e. a 40 MM sponge round, or 40 mm gas or tri chamber on him and had the guys wearing gas mask or pepper ball, the issue is wind and open area, gas works much better in a confined space. Gas however would have eliminated the use of a K-9. If he still failed to comply after tazing, gas, bean bag rounds, mace and a flash bang, and nothing else could have been done and he needed to be taken into custody given his violent and mental past history and he made an overt act towards me or another officer, yep. But I still am missing why the LEO's were called is this a park where people walk and hike, or just a business owner who wants the guy off of his property, that reason they were there plays a role. Again until he made an overt act of aggression towards the officers either while approaching or during the hands on arrest, I would have refrained from the use of lethal force, but I again we can Monday morning Q.B. all day. I would think that any SWAT team worth its salt, knowing his background would have came equipped, . If these guys are just primary responders attached to a team then they could have held perimeter until the necessary equipment arrived. We try to maintain a safe distance from anyone with a blunt or forged object. As 98 Z showed in his video, you saw how fast a person can move and close distance to cut your reaction time down. Remember SWAT is special weapons and tactics not the crap the t.v. shows. We have the good toys like the non-lethal and as for me I am happy to bring an issue to a peaceful end if at all possible, good guys go home, bad goes to jail not the morgue unless they made it happen. Sorry if during the course I went off topic, I have too much time on my hands at the moment. Edited March 28, 2014 by Zebra644 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue109 Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) I have friends with worse "criminal histories" than that guy, minus the secret mission stuff. obviously crazy, but most homeless are. that's why they are homeless. he slashed a bum, but it doesn't list any circumstances. he punched a cop (never a good idea) but it said he had a knife on him at the time and he obviously didn't go for it. , when the knives came out those guys got their xmas wish and the shoot became justified, but it wasn't necessary. that guys worst crime was trespassing until the storm troopers showed up and escalated it. none of those officers we're in any danger at the moment the real bullets flew. if they argued with him for 3 hrs, so what. how long does one get to argue with authority before they are allowed to kill you? if we are shooting people now for the danger they "might" be as oppose to the danger they are, than it's already too late. Edited March 28, 2014 by blue109 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Libertarian623 Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 Greenmist - no need to lock the thread. I was wrong to get off topic. Zebra - Believe me if the chief would send me to a warmer place to train I would gladly come. You have my number in my PM back, I could explain further. Also in my initial post I stated that the helmet cam officier would be reliving it for the rest of his life only to point out we are all human we all make mistakes and we take them home with us and live with them for our entire lives. It is a cross we bear that no one else see's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue109 Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 to clarify...I'm not trying to sound like some bleeding heart crybag...I could give a crap about that guy on a personal level. I'm putting myself, and all of us...in the shoes of the bum. we are slowly being incensed to this militarized police violence. we are the ones who partake in a "hobby" that is politically unpopular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
392heminut Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 You're one of the LEOs on site: do you shoot or not, and articulate why. This is a little more simple than some are making it to be, believe it or not. Enough of the pecker checks ...my career is bigger than yours, B.S.. If the scenario gets you that fired up, that you cannot respond in a reasonable manner, let's just lock the thread. Greenmist, YOU are oversimplifying this! As I stated earlier, I won't make any statement based on this video because it's a very small part of the whole incident. I learned a long time ago not to be baited by people like you that try to back LEO's in a corner by using a video like this that doesn't even come close to representing all the dynamics of the situation. I don't know what purpose you're trying to accomplish here, but I agree that it's probably best to just lock this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Libertarian623 Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 Blue - Your comments are valid and justified and welcome for discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planeflyer21 Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 if they argued with him for 3 hrs, so what. how long does one get to argue with authority before they are allowed to kill you? if we are shooting people now for the danger they "might" be as oppose to the danger they are, than it's already too late. Kind of like the differences between the standoff in Waco by the feds, and the standoff with the Indian tribe up in Canada about the same time and RCMP. RCMP waited the "hooligans" out for like 5 months, peacefully resolved. In many parts of the country it IS too late. Divides are getting deeper. Even locally…I see county deputies and all the smaller agencies leaning towards working with the public, TPD as enforcing the will of the city. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenmist Posted March 29, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 Greenmist, YOU are oversimplifying this! As I stated earlier, I won't make any statement based on this video because it's a very small part of the whole incident. I learned a long time ago not to be baited by people like you that try to back LEO's in a corner by using a video like this that doesn't even come close to representing all the dynamics of the situation. I don't know what purpose you're trying to accomplish here, but I agree that it's probably best to just lock this thread. No, what I am doing is a cross between an AAR (After action review) and a training scenario instruction, based on real-life video. You seem to believe you are being held captive by your local L.E. and need to attack, for them? With basic statement analysis, of what you have written, you are overreacting and I ask you to take a few moments to better compose yourself before responding again. So, first off, let's get some things straight : nobody is backing LEOs into ANY corner-we have taken these LE jobs knowing full well what we were getting into, and any officer worth his/her service will agree. Looking honestly at AARs is part of that job, but some agencies are not honest, and THAT is what ends up screwing A LOT of LEOs in the field. That path of dishonesty and lack of leadership is how you get to an agenciy's position such as ABQ P.D.. Secondly, the use of force continuum is pretty much a national standard, which has been made that way in part by federal case law pertaining specifically to shooting subjects in the back. Going off half-cocked on another member here, you exhibited your lack of knowledge about that, but it's just a learning lab here-no foul. It is simple set of instructions, for a very difficult job: decide if this is a shoot or no shoot scenario for you, and then articulate why you made that decision. I am not "oversimplify"ing anything-this is what MANY officers/recruits will be asked in training, before watching this VERY video. It is part of the reasons why we wear/buy so much camera equipment today. Allegedly there are other background and historical matters per this subject, but those ideas are inadmissible, as they will be inadmissible in a court of law should surviving family decide to file suit. The video you see will be some of the evidence presented to a jury, and previous behavior history of said subject will NOT be. Working on the street is an extremely rewarding and difficult job, but this recent scenario appears to be a new symptom of a problem nobody really wants to look at yet. It's the sausage making room of today's LEOs, and what they face almost everyday, unless you're lucky enough to be in Mayberry... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue109 Posted March 29, 2014 Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 the feds have taken the case. I feel much better now. http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/fbi-investigating-police-shooting-of-camper sarcasm btw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnatshooter Posted March 29, 2014 Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 I seriously have to wonder what the outcome would have been here, if the police were required to use the same Rules of Engagement for US soldiers stationed in Iraq. From what little I understand of the ROE, the result would have been, 'no shoot'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planeflyer21 Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 sarcasm btw Glad I caught that. <laughs> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 I seriously have to wonder what the outcome would have been here, if the police were required to use the same Rules of Engagement for US soldiers stationed in Iraq. From what little I understand of the ROE, the result would have been, 'no shoot'. I'd hate to see a transition to a military ROE for law enforcement - LE is too militarized as it is. We don't need to push them further into it. M $0.02. On another note - if LE uses a military ROE, we'd have alot of dead cops out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue109 Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 I don't know....I have a letter of reprimand for RETURNING fire in Iraq. not kidding. guess we were suppose to ask permission first.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue109 Posted April 18, 2014 Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 feds appointed some civilian overwatch to appease the sheep. they realized it was a pony show and quit. http://m.koat.com/news/3-police-oversight-commission-members-quit/25501790 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StainTrain Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 (edited) Weird. IMO it should go before the Grand Jury (if it hasn't already). The Grand Jury is your civilian oversight with the teeth to indict or the ability to no bill. Plus the shooting is judged on the individual facts of the shooting. Edited April 19, 2014 by StainTrain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StainTrain Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 I'd hate to see a transition to a military ROE for law enforcement - LE is too militarized as it is. We don't need to push them further into it. M $0.02. On another note - if LE uses a military ROE, we'd have alot of dead cops out there. TRUTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 ^^^ Glad you understand that - I don't think alot of guys here understand what I said in that, or why... The Military ROE at least in the most recent, and still ongoing conflict - it's just fucked up. It didn't start out that way, but it morphed into "stupid." You basically have to have bullets flying into your formation before you can return fire. That wouldn't work well for police, and we'd have alot of dead cops out there - but the lawyers that dream this $hit up would have a steady paycheck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unforgiven Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 When did they start this ROE $hit??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue109 Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 since day 1 in the sandbox. MFers counted our ammo out, and told us they would be spot checking it to make sure every round was accounted for. they never did, but it's still pretty stupid. I also got a "ticket" from an MP outside of BIAP for not wearing a seatbelt. then 2 days later a bunch of folks got killed when someone chucked a grenade into their hummer and they couldn't get out fast enough because of the stupid ass seatbelts. the rule went away, but I still got in trouble for my ticket. non mil people just don't realize how painfully idiotic 98% of the military is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unforgiven Posted April 20, 2014 Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 When I was working Great Lakes Naval the guys were talkin about all the stupid hoops they have to go through to take their motorcycle on base. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted April 20, 2014 Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 (edited) Here's a good read on the current ROE in A-Stan: http://rt.com/usa/battlefield-deaths-rules-engagement-change-862/ In that article, there is mention of CPT Will Swenson - research that guy. The ROE was so fucked up that he got out of the Army after that battle. He was very vocal about the fight, and the lack of support. His CMOH paperwork was "lost" after that. He said Eff it and walked. Got out. FTA - Fuk The Army. He did get his Medal of Honor. Ultimately. http://www.armytimes.com/article/20131016/NEWS05/310160032/Army-promises-changes-after-botching-Swenson-s-MoH-nomination Edited April 20, 2014 by 98Z5V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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