Shoot/ No Shoot

[greenmist]

You're one of the LEOs on site: do you shoot or not, and articulate why.

 

 

[blue109]

Illegal camping is serious business

[unforgiven]

I would like to hear what the leo's here think.Myself with all those guys and a dog,I think it could have been handeled differently.Just my 2 mags.

[blue109]

From what I've been reading, that department is well known for being jackbooted thugs with badges.

[planeflyer21]

They could've beanbagged him only.

 

Small knives still cut.  This guy had a history with the PD already…involving knife attacks.  I may have shot him if there was a known slasher history to me.

[Zebra644]

A mentally ill person or person on narcotics with two fixed blade knives can do some serious and lethal damage. Every dept. policy and Police Academy teaches if they pull a knife, then you pull a gun period and get distance. Walking up an area like that with a full load out combined with aderiline will make one breath hard, and I think it was the dog you heard more than the officers. I wouldn't let the dog loose on him either with him dual weilding knives he'd kill that dog who is just like a family member and co-worker . Fuk the douche bag reporter K-9s are used as a non-lethal means just like mace, taser, bean bags ect. Trust me non-lethal doesn't allways work, he plays possum, you walk up, get a knife in an artery, out in the desert not good. He was told multiple times to drop the knives and as stated above we dont know his medical or criminal history. At what point is it a good idea to not listen to Police Officers, so if hes being wrongfully arrested, he wont ever have to sleep under a bridge again after he wins the law suit. Hell the time the poor guy only ever ate ok or showered was when he was in jail. If you noticed the flash bang barely phased him, that tells me there is something wrong with the guy either mentally or he's on something. However, depending on the wind and enviroment,  and his just standing there, I may have tired a pepper ball gun, 40 mm sponge round or a mace fogger, which is like a small fire extinguisher that projects some serious mace before having hit him with a bean bag. The problem with those are that you have to have the money to buy the stuff, and then you have to have a person certified to use it, not all agencies have the money or admin that can do that or will allow it.  I would also like to know what call or complaint was received that required the officers to respond. Every dept. has thier mental subject, vioent metnal subjects, drunks, local pill pushers ect. So without knowing the entire story, this can be viewed many different ways

Edited March 26, 2014 by Zebra644

[shibiwan]

Too many unknowns and the "media" is just sensationalizing. There's bigger fish to fry at this time.

[planeflyer21]

He was told multiple times to drop the knives and as stated above we dont know his medical or criminal history.

 

I saw a follow-up on it.  He had multiple contacts with police, one being stabbing/cutting another homeless person at a shelter.

 

If the cops there are like they are here, the ones in areas with large homeless populations know most everyone…who's done what, who's not a problem, who to watch out for and not turn your back to.

[98Z5V]

 If you noticed the flash bang barely phased him, that tells me there is something wrong with the guy either mentally or he's on something.

 

Saw that right away - didn't affect his balance in the least, and it should have rocked him pretty good from that distance. 

 

Gun-cam-guy is the one that put him down with the live ammo.  Everyone else was on the less-lethal, and the guy didn't seem to be phased by that stuff.  3 rounds from gun-cam-guy dropped him immediately.  He was done, right then.

[Robocop1051]

Here's one, for you guys who think bean bags work. This suspect is shot with four bean bags... same police dept!

http://www.policeone.com/body-cam/articles/6982642-Video-NM-police-fatally-shoot-man-armed-with-hammer/

Edited March 27, 2014 by Robocop1051

[Zebra644]

Saw that right away - didn't affect his balance in the least, and it should have rocked him pretty good from that distance.

 

For those who may not be familiar with a non fragmenting destructive device, as labeled by the BATFE, or as we call them flash bangs heres a little info. They are are about 130-170 decibles when they go off and like 2000 lumen from the flash, I forget the exacts. They are designed to obviously make a really bright  light and really loud bang to distract and or disorient, and trust me they work, except in this case. Any person in thier right mind would have dropped those knives and hit the ground and become instantly compliant.

Edited March 27, 2014 by Zebra644

[Zebra644]

Here's one, for you guys who think bean bags work. This suspect is shot with four bean bags... same police dept!

http://www.policeone.com/body-cam/articles/6982642-Video-NM-police-fatally-shoot-man-armed-with-hammer/

It also shows how quickly a person can close the distance gap, imagine he had a knife like the guy this thread was started on and much damage he could have inflicted on the officer with the bean bag shotgun. Thus the you pull a knife we pull out duty weapon policy. They hit him with a 12 guage at that distance this guy should have been doubled over in pain orr suffering from a fracture. It's always easy to Monday morning quater back when a person isnt trained, has no real knowledge of the laws and policies, or why things are, and isn't the one out there doing the job that others don't want to do. We just get called trigger happy jack booted thugs like the reporter. Instad he should ask to see a demonstration on this stuff and how and why it works. 

Edited March 27, 2014 by Zebra644

[greenmist]

From what I've been reading, that department is well known for being jackbooted thugs with badges.

IIRC, 21 officer involved shootings, since December 2013.

 

In last 4 months they have more OIS than New York City P.D., which has 16 times the ABQ population and a much higher homeless population.   

[planeflyer21]

I've had several people go through our simulator (Milo, makes FATS look like an early NES video game) totally change their opinion of police.

 

We have the ability to chang the course of the scenario as it is running…shoot, fist attack, comply, fake comply, second attacker, victim family member turns attacker, etc.  Even have scenarios where you're out with your family and stuff goes down.  Talk about tunnel vision.  "Not bad but you shot your kid here, and here, and here.  And put one through that door your wife just walked through.  Want to try this one again?"

[blue109]

here's what I see. some American is pissed off and being difficult because the fricken swat team came out to tell him he can't camp there. he can't sleep on the street, and the shelters are probably gross and dangerous, so he just wants to get away from everything. (I would also be chock full o bad attitude here) he finally decides to leave and gets hit with the grenade. at the same moment, 90lbs of teeth come tearing toward him, he make a very bad instinctual decision of self defense. the dog is reigned in, guy starts to turn around to hit the ground. officer small dick (who has been itching to play with his new toys) doesnt want to miss out and takes him out. no doubt earned him some high fives back in the locker room.

[98Z5V]

For those who may not be familiar with a non fragmenting destructive device, as labeled by the BATFE, or as we call them flash bangs heres a little info. They are are about 130-170 decibles when they go off and like 2000 lumen from the flash, I forget the exacts. They are designed to obviously make a really bright  light and really loud bang to distract and or disorient, and trust me they work, except in this case. Any person in thier right mind would have dropped those knives and hit the ground and become instantly compliant.

Yep, and that thing went off about 5 feet in front of him (if cam perspective is what it is).  Should have had him staggering at least, or knocked him to his knees from the concussion and resulting imbalance.  Dude didn't even move.

[Magwa]

I am staying out of this one.... to many sides to choose and they are all the wrong choice....

[Libertarian623]

Not sure what to think about all the comments about how he reacted to a flash bang, BFD its a flash bang (Oooo hes drunk or high big surprise). Next point I guess they have really lax use of force policies in NM, just follow the MF policy and everybody goes home. My point, tazer the sucker. Have never seen it fail in 50 or so encounters. Its all about following the procedures your department has in place and  practice, practice and you guessed it practice. OH well officer helmet cam will be able to critique himself every night just before nodding off, and some nights it will cause him to break out in a cold sweat and not sleep at all. Maybe he will change it when he gets his hand at the wheel.

[98Z5V]

Not sure what to think about all the comments about how he reacted to a flash bang, BFD its a flash bang (Oooo hes drunk or high big surprise).

 

Those comments were made because it's an indication that there's something not right going on here, with the subject of the video.  Initial judgment being what it is - "Dang!  That guy didn't even flich when that thing went off in front of him!  There may be a reason for that!"  Directly into the vid after that, they light him up with non-lethal, and he has very, very little reaction to that stuff.

 

So, those reasons are why those comments were made.  Those methods usually have a positive impact on the subject, and are ways to gain compliance in a non-compliant person.  Usually. 

[Zebra644]

 My point, tazer the sucker. Have never seen it fail in 50 or so encounters. Its all about following the procedures your department has in place and  practice, practice and you guessed it practice. 

Have you ever had to fight a guy on bath salts? i have my tazer didn't do sh!t to him and for about every good taze I've had, I have had one that didn't work becasue the subject was nuttier than squirrel sh!t in a walnuit tree, off thier meds or so hopped up on drugs they didn't know wether they were coming or going. But dont take my word for it T.V.  and the social media know more about my job than I do. I reccomend to anyone to go to their local PD and see if they have a Citizens Police Academy or if they can do a demonstartion on this stuff. After you see you'll ask yourself holy crap that didnt work on him WTF.

Edited March 27, 2014 by Zebra644

[392heminut]

IIRC, 21 officer involved shootings, since December 2013.

 

In last 4 months they have more OIS than New York City P.D., which has 16 times the ABQ population and a much higher homeless population.   

Wrong! The number is 21 since 2010. I'm not going to make any kind of statement as to whether the shooting was good or bad since I wasn't there and don't have all the facts. This video is a very small piece of what happened there and this situation had been playing out for 5 hours! Also, this subject's background was very well known by the officers and I'm sure a lot of it hasn't been made public but the man has priors for assault on a peace officer and on citizens.

 

Oh, and Libertarian, he was tasered two times with no effect before this portion of the video. This is what I meant when I said this video is only a small portion of the scenario that took place! Are you a LEO Libertarian? I wonder how you have witnessed "50 or so encounters". Tasers do fail and it is well documented. A friend of mine that went through taser training had a video of him being tasered in the class and he still reached down and picked up a rubber training pistol and pointed it at the instructor! Also, since you live in Michigan how would you even know what kind of "MF"ing use of force policies might be in place in New Mexico? If you are a cop I pity the officers that have to work along side of you!

 

Disclaimer; I have never worked for Albuquerque P.D. and do not even know anyone who does. I live over 200 miles from Albuquerque and have no connection to that department. I'm just calling things as I see them.

[greenmist]

Some of the Use of Force continuum/ criteria, for use of deadly force;

 

1.) Weapon: knife, gun, blunt object, etc..

 

2.) Delivery system: able to physically use said weapon.

 

3.) Intent: The subject is making hostile intentions known.

 

For example: A woman with a knife may be screaming that she wants to kill you, is going to kill you, but she is in an invalid in a  wheel chair-she is a NO shoot.

[Libertarian623]

98Z5V- I have been around and used flash bangs for twenty years ( so close I have got nose bleeds in training ) Never count on a flash bang to do anything other than piss off  and motivate and maybe give you 1 second of lead time. I have seen people that have never been exposed to the report of a flash bang just stand there and do nothing as if dazed. In this case I see it of little use in how I would handle this guy. Just saying it not worth all the comments. Assume everyone you come in contact with in this setting is UTI until proven otherwise.

Zebra- Yes to question 1, never kept stats , but have never lost. As for the tazer, I have seen plenty of poor shots that resulted in only one barb catching them, and not effectively putting them down. We always have multiple tazers out as well and side arms and perhaps a sergeant with either a shotgun or patrol rifle. I have never seen a tazer properly employed fail to take down even the most hopped up crack head.

Heminut- As to the training video all I got to say is he must be one tough SOB. I am 6'1" and 265lbs my lifts are close to 4,6 and 7 and when I was tazed I went down like a ton of bricks and there was plenty of money on the table to motivate me to do otherwise. The outfit that came in and trained our department trains hundreds of officer's a year and the instructors have trained thousands and they have never seen anyone take more than 1 balanced step after being properly  tazed. Again I come back to poor shot placement everybody does it that's why you need to employ 2 or 3 tazers.

Heminut - Didn't realize that tazers had been attempted prior to the video, but if that's the case why did the officiers give ground to the suspect and back off for the video because in the video unless your a expert with a tazer you haven't got a prayer of hitting that guy from that range. The guy with the dog was the only one close and he's got the dog to control, so hes out. And heminut I am not a LEO and never have been but teach and train with both military and LEO for twenty years. Would to love and chat but I got a call to go on now.

[Libertarian623]

False call I am back to discuss. Will be here all night til shift change at 7am. Not being argumentative just saying follow your use of force policy and let the lawyers do there job. Oh and trying to dispel the rumor that tazers don't work when properly employed.

[98Z5V]

 And heminut I am not a LEO and never have been but teach and train with both military and LEO for twenty years. Would to love and chat but I got a call to go on now.

 

Former military, then?!  If not, then you're on the training end of the stick, and it's a much different world when you're on the pointy end of the stick...

 

 

 

Here's what they were facing.  It's pretty safe to say they knew exactly what they were up against, considering his history.  They were engaging him for 3 hours prior to the start of this video.

 

http://www.koat.com/news/new-mexico/albuquerque/man-killed-in-foothills-officerinvolved-shooting-had-long-criminal-history/25098132

Edited March 28, 2014 by 98Z5V