Forged vs, Billet

[D.R.D.]

Alright, this topic has be hashed out before on AR15 threads, but not so much in the 308 world.  It's been said "Billet for accuracy, and forged for durability".  But we've seen lots of concepts shattered of late.  We now know reliability is more about springs and ejectors, than Di vs. piston, or how well lubed the gun is.  The barrel length argument is being challenged every day (that is, unless you are shooting a 32" from a flying horse - LOL!)  Etc

 

Here's the question: All things being equal, will it affect accuracy or functionality at all?

 

Given the following:

1. You've got a excellent barrel (LW, Fulton, Bartlein, etc)
2. Great trigger (SSA-E, Wilson, AR Gold, etc)
3. Tight build/assembly
4. Good ammo (match or handloads for what your rifle likes best)

We are awaiting reports on the new PSA or Aero Precision Forged receiver sets to see how well they build, how tight they fit, etc.  I ask this since I've got some billet and forged receivers and would rather sell the billet if it makes no difference since I can get a whole forged set for the price of one billet lower.  I'd like to save money for the parts that matter (mentioned above).

 

What say y'all?

Edited September 14, 2014 by D.R.D.

[98Z5V]

Did you know that DPMS LR308 lower receivers are billet machined?  And their uppers are extruded stock, and machined?  Shocks a few people.

[shibiwan]

Billet ones tend to be more consistent IF the machining operations are well planned and the critical cuts are done in as few operations as possible. Forged lowers can equal that of billet lowers but again it's really dependent on how it's been completed.

 

In fact, forged lowers may have better grain structure due to the forging process because the metal is "flowed" by the forging pressure so the crystalline grains are lined up right. Most billet lowers are machined out of bar stock which has a linear grain pattern.

 

It's really a toss up, but really everything with fit/finish is dependent on the final machining.

Edited September 14, 2014 by shibiwan

[98Z5V]

It's really a toss up, but really everything with fit/finish is dependent on the final machining.

 

That's it, right there.

 

There's not really that much stress on a lower.  There's not really that much stress on an upper.  The stress is in the chamber of the barrel.

 

 

Buy a good barrel.

[shibiwan]

...and use a good bolt.

[EasyEJL]

Here's the question: All things being equal, will it affect accuracy or functionality at all?

accuracy, not the slightest, functionality as was mentioned is based on the machining which can be good or bad on a forged or billet. so in general, not the slightest real difference between the 2 other than looks.

[D.R.D.]

Thanks for the replies. So, how does one assess if the machining was done well? And what makes one bolt better than another?

[survivalshop]

  Your best bet is to use the same manufacturers matching set of Upper & lower Receivers , being function ,can & will equate to accuracy . get a miss matched Upper & lower combo that have tolerance stacking & see where that gets you .

   You can read here in many threads where different upper/lower manufacture receivers were used & problems can come up . I have a set that are different upper manufacture than the Lower & had a few different problems  ( both Billet ). I put all the parts on a DPMS lower with a Tactical Machining upper , which is a DPMS compatible upper & the rifle functions flawlessly  & shoots a lot better, IMO .

  Bedding the action to tighten the upper/lower made a nice fit , but the accuracy suffered & that is proven by the targets that were shot before & after the swap out .

 

  This may come under the , Machined properly , as was said above . 

 

  

[Robocop1051]

The only time(s) I suggest billet over forged:

• If cosmetics are really that important to you...
• If the billet has integral features (ie; ambi bolt release) that are unavailable on forged receivers. (Mega, Seekins, AXTS, KAC, LWRCi)

Companies like Noveske, LMT, Mega, Colt, even new comer BAD Inc have all shown that a a high quality forged receiver can exist, and be extremely functional. If one of the above reasons doesn't apply to you, stick with the forged... Just because it's forged, don't think you're saving money. In most cases, you get what you pay for.

 

As for integral features, Aero Precision has even started implementing special features on their forged receivers, like the "PDQ" ambi-bolt release. No longer do the billet receivers hold a monopoly on that market.

[D.R.D.]

What do you think of the aero or psa forged receivers?

[Robocop1051]

What do you think of the aero or psa forged receivers?

 

I don't know much about PSA, but there are several guys around here that own them.

 

AP receivers aren't necessarily the "best", but they are sure as hell GOOD ENOUGH.

[98Z5V]

I have so many Aero lowers and uppers on AR-15s that it's not even funny.  None has ever been an issue.  Now, based on that, I don't have an Aero .308 set, either upper or lower.  I'd be shocked (like a Guantanamo Detainee) if any of their stuff was out of spec.  They don't slouch.  They only put out great stuff. 

[D.R.D.]

Alright then. I might be selling a billet SI defense lower to get a psa or aero forged matched set...

[D.R.D.]

What makes any one bolt better than another? Radical firearms, Alex precision arms, shadow ops, si defense, dpms? Etc...

[shibiwan]

What makes any one bolt better than another? Radical firearms, Alex precision arms, shadow ops, si defense, dpms? Etc...

 

Materials, and matched properly to the barrel so that the headspace is correct.

[D.R.D.]

Ok, so let's say you're getting a LW barrel. Would you get the bolt they supply and head space to the barrel or send them a bolt to headspace? If you sent them one, what make would you choose and which materials?

[shibiwan]

If their barrels come with a bolt, use that bolt. It should be headspaced correctly. Otherwise if it doesn't, send them a bolt. :D

[StainTrain]

Ok, so let's say you're getting a LW barrel. Would you get the bolt they supply and head space to the barrel or send them a bolt to headspace? If you sent them one, what make would you choose and which materials?

This

https://dsgarms.com/jpeb-308

 

But I have used DPMS bolts without issue.  

[StainTrain]

The only time(s) I suggest billet over forged:

• If cosmetics are really that important to you...
• If the billet has integral features (ie; ambi bolt release) that are unavailable on forged receivers. (Mega, Seekins, AXTS, KAC, LWRCi)

Companies like Noveske, LMT, Mega, Colt, even new comer BAD Inc have all shown that a a high quality forged receiver can exist, and be extremely functional. If one of the above reasons doesn't apply to you, stick with the forged... Just because it's forged, don't think you're saving money. In most cases, you get what you pay for.

 

As for integral features, Aero Precision has even started implementing special features on their forged receivers, like the "PDQ" ambi-bolt release. No longer do the billet receivers hold a monopoly on that market.

Pretty much this regarding the two. I own both and aside from looks, I don't notice any differences, functional or otherwise.  

[98Z5V]

There are some times when billet is (or might be) a benefit over forged, but those times are few and far between.  Rainier Arms makes a 5.56 Billet Ultramatch upper receiver, which is held to some pretty tight tolerances - the most important of those tolereances if the machining of the front face of the upper receiver  - it the front face of the receiver is truly square and true, then the barrel mates up to it square and true - it's more accurate.

 

Same thing can be done on 5.56 rifles by truing the front of the upper - no such thing is out there for 308ARs yet.  Someone needs to make it.

 

Here's the Rainier Arms Billet Ultramatch upper info:

 

CNC machined from solid billet 7075-T6 aluminum which is 70% stronger than the commonly used 6061 aluminum and finished with milspec hardcoat anodize to a surface hardness of 60 Rockwell. Renewed design to work with 99.9% of all accessories, including; the Magpul BAD lever, Daniel Defense Lite rails and even features the pre-drilled alignment hole for the Noveske NSR Rail. If you want to build the best upper money can buy, look no further than the Rainier Arms UltraMatch Billet Upper. Extremely robust yet weighs in at a mere 9.3 oz. Made in the USA.

• Life Time Warranty against defects & workmanship
• 90 day - Satisfaction guarantee - 100% money back with no questions asked

The most critical features are:

• Parallelism between the picatinny rail, main center bore and the centerline of the mounting lugs
• Perpendicularity between the centerline of the lugs and the barrel mating face (at the front of the threads)
• Flatness of the barrel mating face

We are holding .0003 or better on all of those measurements. Competitor uppers are between .001 and .003 on the perpendicularity and parallelism.

Configuration:

• A3 Flat-Top
• A4 Flat-Top - w/M4 Feedramps

*** Upper Parts Kit Installed ***

 

I have two of these uppers on my own rifles, and I can't say they're more accurate than a standard upper - but I CAN SAY that the two rifles with these uppers are fucking stooopid accurate. One is my billet ARF lower build, and the other is the 20" Woody National Match rifle.  Both those rifles are fucking ridiculous accurate.  The 14.5" ARF billet gun is the one we use to shoot steel at 575 with a  red dot - bets against each other.

Edited September 15, 2014 by 98Z5V

[D.R.D.]

ARF?

[98Z5V]

Derp!?

 

https://store.ar15.com/product.html?cat=47&pr=329

[D.R.D.]

Ahh...thanks

[D.R.D.]

Do we know who makes psa receivers?

[98Z5V]

Nope. Doesn't matter though, as long as they're in spec.  Final-Finishing is rarely a concern, unless everything is off and nothing fits.

 

Is yours off?

Edited September 15, 2014 by 98Z5V