D. Wilson Bolts

[survivalshop]

I can already see its a wider cut for the Cases extractor grove , look at the ends of the cut & then look at my photo , I must have gotten a short cut one . I will be testing my alteration tomorrow morning .

 He asked if I would like to get a rebuild kit , but haven't heard from him , so I ordered one yesterday & I see its got my Home Email address & I tryed to change it but the email still comes to my home email instead of my Shops email , could be why he didn't know who ordered the Bolt .

  The ne Forum is doing some crazy $hit , it added my rely as a quote & keeps adding my Canopy photo to my replies . LOL 

 

Edited September 3, 2015 by survivalshop

[98Z5V]

  The ne Forum is doing some crazy $hit , it added my rely as a quote & keeps adding my Canopy photo to my replies . LOL 

 

I can't see how this is an issue...   LMAO!

[survivalshop]

I think its a an inside job .   LOL 

[GreyGoose]

Slight digression if I may you two:

I got my LMT bolt today, what a f**king masterpiece!

Can't wait to put this stuff all together!!!

Digression ended:

Once you all get this D.Wilson bolt stuff cleared up I may try that on the next one.

(If I was Mr Wilson I'd be dilligent about jumping in on this thread and aggressively getting it resolved considering...)

Just say'in, that's at least how I do business.

[98Z5V]

He is - he's active in what's going on, trust me.

[GreyGoose]

He is - he's active in what's going on, trust me.

Ya I gathered as much, just haven't seen him responding much and considering SS's posts, well I just thought I'd take one for the team.

I saw you were supportive and wasn't overly concerned. ;-)

Did I mention this LMT bolt is just f**king bad ass?!

Hope it runs as good as it looks!

Edited September 4, 2015 by GreyGoose

[survivalshop]

Got my parts kit today & this Extractor is different then the one that came with my bolt . Its like the others that have posted here , the cut in the Extractor for the cases Extractor grove is cut wider , if you look at the photo's of the one from my Bolt & this one , you can see the are flat edges on the out side edges of the one from my Bolt , where the cut is not wide enough . Hard time with enough light in the photo because of the Finnish , but its a wider cut , trust me . Its like the DPMS cut  & this one reads Match on it .

 The one on the left is the DWilson & the one on the right is a DPMS

This is the new one I got from Dwilson

  My altered Extractor works just fine , I will test this one also .

[jtallen83]

The battery was dead in my calipers but here are a few more close-up pictures of the extractor that came in my Wilson bolt, there are some marks in the groove where I hooked it on a case to see how grippy it was, it seemed to grab well but then I won't know for sure till I go hot with it;

[survivalshop]

 Just like any component we get for the 308AR , won't know till you try it , but it looks ok . The burr's I found on mine could have been causing my issues also . I don't see any on your Extractor or the New one I just got . 

  The kit I got , also has the O-rings or Donuts for enhanced Spring action for the Extractor spring & I may test one next week , I may not make it to the range till Wednesday.

[survivalshop]

    Went to the range today with the new Bolt components installed on the Bolt & am very disappointed . I first tried the Donut on the Extractor spring with the new Extractor & I had the same failures as before, with the Failure to extract & a fresh round trying to feed into the chamber with the spent case not ejected . I took the Donut out & failure rate was almost every round fired . I even cleaned the Bolt, Chamber/Barrel & it didn't change a thing .

     Went & again tried the DWilson Extractor I altered & it failed less then the other one & when it failed , it didn't pull the spent case out of the chamber . I didn't bother to put the DPMS Extractor back in , because I shot over a hundred rounds with it on this bolt with out a failure .

      This whole issue has me baffled , why seemingly good components would fail in this Bolt is a head scratcher . The only thing , and this may be really reaching , is the Bolt Carrier , its used & I wonder if there could be an alignment problem with the new Bolt in a well worn BC ? The reason I say this is , that the DPMS Bolt that works just fine , is the mate for this BC & they may have broken in or worn in a certain way that is causing a misalignment , I said it was a stretch LOL , but you never know ,we always think if a Bolt wears out or we replace a Barrel & install a new Bolt to go with it that the BC is OK , well Maybe it isn't , at least in this case .What throws that theory is , a new DPMS Extractor works on this Bolt , so if it were the BC , wouldn't it fail also ?

    The problem with this Bolt is defiantly the Extractor , but the why is what makes me scratching my head . Since I have a couple more 308AR's , I'm going to swap out & test these extractors in them & see how they work out in them . 

Edited September 9, 2015 by survivalshop

[jtallen83]

I've got tracking numbers on the rest of my parts so if everything goes right I should be testing my wilson BCG on the 14th. I don't have a spare DPMS format BCG to test with it so I hope I don't have any issues. Will my spare Armalite ejector, extractor, and springs swap with the wilson in case I need to troubleshoot?

[survivalshop]

I assume they are the same , compare them .  

 Here is a funny thing that happened at the range today , I was swapping out Extractors & the spring flopped out onto the bench & bounced off the bench at my feet , its grass & muddy grass at that , lucky the bench I was sitting at was not under water like most of the others . I looked for that spring for fifteen minutes , even took my flash light out to see in the shade under the bench & couldn't find it , I shot & changed parts for another hour or so & I don't know why ,but I looked down at my feet & there was that little bugger sitting straight up looking at me like a lost puppy , so I took it home with me , what are the odds ?

 I'm going to take a closer look t these Extractors , there has to be something about them , I just haven't found it yet .

[98Z5V]

This is just the bolt?  DWilson bolt, in another carrier?  What carrier (I probably missed that bit of info...)?

My BCG from him just ate up everything I threw at it last Sunday.  Just didn't care what was in the chamber - Poof!  Spit it out.

[survivalshop]

DPMS Chromed BC . If that was the cause of my issue , why would the DWilson Bolt work with a new DPMS Extractor . Kinda eliminates the BC, IMO .    

  I did find some interesting things when I disassembled the two Bolts & took measurements of the components & Bolt Extractor Channels . First off the original Extractor was doomed from the beginning , because the depth of the Exrtactor grove is too shallow , about half as deep as the DPMS & the new " Match " Extractor I just got in the kit , so that's one thing . When I cut it a little wider & may have gotten it slightly deeper , but its too shallow to get a good hold on the Case's Extractor grove & even though I polished it up because of the Burr's that were there , all I took off the face of it was the Black from the Nitrating process , it was not tough to take off , even with a Hard Arkansas round stone.

  The left one is the new Match one & the right is the one that came with the Bolt . There is a large difference in the Beefiness of the claw part , which I didn't alter 

  Here are some comparison measurements , of course these are rough & done with the depth part of a digital Caliper .

 This is how I took the depth measurements of the Extractors claw for the cases Extractor grove ( this is for demonstration purposes , I used both hands with the Extractor on a flat surface )

Depth of New DPMS Extractor               -0.087" 

Depth of Old used DPMS Extractor       - 0.080"

Depth of New Match DWilson Extractor - 0.071 "

I decided to take measurements of the Extractor Channel in the two Bolts , because , when looking at the two Bolts , you could see from a side angle , the DWilson Bolt Extractor was slightly lower in the channel in the back spring area , where the DPMS was flush with the outside surface of the Bolt .

DWilson Bolt 

DPMS Bolt

 Measurements of Extractor Channels , front was measured from the top of the Locking lugs to the forward most part of the Channel ( This would act as a stop for the spring loaded Extractor 

-DPMS & DWilson were both the same - front - 0.175"

-Rear of channel ( where spring would be ) 

  DPMS - 0167"

  DWilson - 0.177" 

 You can see why the rear of the DWilson 's Extractor , at least in this Bolt , is sitting lower in the Spring area . It may be why whe Extractor spring in the DWilson Bolt feels stiffer , also

 The other measurement that I found interesting is the gap between the Ejector & the Extractor, measured on the Extractor claw to the Ejector itself . This measurement coincides with the actual Extractor depth & could explain why this set up on this particular Bolt is not working to Extract the spent case reliably .

New DPMS Extractor in DWilson Bolt      - 0.310" 

DWilson Match Extractor in DWilson Bolt - 0.317"

Old Used DPMS test Bolt                          - 0.290"

This shows a larger gap between the Ejector & the Extractor on the DWilson that is grabbing the Case . You may think that there is not much difference , but I have found with Firearms components , it doesn't take much to cause a component not to work reliably . A combination of more spring pressure & shallower griping section for the cases Extractor grove , can cause issues . 

 I also took a measurement from the outside of the locking lug on the Bolt to the Locking Lug on the Extractor 

 DPMS Extractor on DWilson Bolt                      -0.844"

 DPMS test Bolt                                                  - 0.826"

DWilson New Match Extractor on DWilson Bolt - 0.851"

  All have to remember this is only one Bolt & it works just fine with the DPMS Extractor , so that shows how tolerances , even slight ones can cause issues . I have never got this deep into the spec's of a Bolt or its components before , never had to really , I've never had this much of an issue before.The Extractor's Channel measurements were interesting . If you guy's that have Dwilson Bolts , can look at them & see if the back portion of the Extractor ,above the Spring is sitting flush or is slightly below the outside to the Bolt diameter for me , I would appreciate it .

 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2015 by survivalshop

[jtallen83]

Still no battery for my calipers but here are a few pictures, mine looks pretty close to flush in the back and a little shallow on the hook end.

[98Z5V]

I'll dig mine out in the next few days and get some pics up - it's very odd, in JT's pics above ^^^ to see a full lug on the extractor.  With a full lug on the extractor, it's gonna be damn hard to single-load a round in the chamber and drop the bolt carrier on it - it's not gonna have the room to deflect upward (outward) inside the chamber to get over that dropped-in round...  I think... 

Never seen a full lug on an extractor before. 

EDT - Eff me, I didn't even catch this when I got it - full lug on the extractor.  Now, I'm trying to remember if I dropped the BCG on a chambered round or not.  I'll test that soon. Not gonna do it in the house, you know, just because...  :)

Edited September 11, 2015 by 98Z5V

[survivalshop]

  I installed the original Extractor that came with this Bolt & it sits flush with the out side of the Bolt , just like the DPMS . I'm beginning to think the Spec's on the two Bolts are made different or there is something not right with this particular Bolt . I took a measurement of the Extractor Pin depth from the flat of the Bolt's Extractor channel to the Pin & there is a difference between the two Bolts .Here is what I got & a $hity photo from this AM of how I took the depth reading . Making sure I wasn't reading from the wear or guide ring on that part of the Bolt .

DPMS Bolt     - 0.069"

DWilson Bolt  - 0.076"

 It seems the Extractor Pin on this Bolt is set deeper into the Bolts recess for the Extractor , compared to the DPMS , not sure if its because they use different spec's or this Bolt was machined wrong . I don't have an answer & why would the original Extractor fit differently then the replacement from the DWilson Kit or the DPMS Extractor ? I don't have that answers . With the Pin being set deeper & that part of the Channel , where the spring sit being deeper , I think its making the geometry of the Extractors function wrong , not to mention the actual claw part of the Extractor being too shallow , is a combo that makes this Bolt fail .

 I do know one thing the Extractor that came with this Bolt was bad from the get go & comparing it to the others show that & I do not trust this Bolt with anyones Components in it , I think I got one that made it through the crack . I know my measurements are crude , but I made sure I got consistent readings before I came to any measurement conclusions . 

[survivalshop]

I'll dig mine out in the next few days and get some pics up - it's very odd, in JT's pics above ^^^ to see a full lug on the extractor.  With a full lug on the extractor, it's gonna be damn hard to single-load a round in the chamber and drop the bolt carrier on it - it's not gonna have the room to deflect upward (outward) inside the chamber to get over that dropped-in round...  I think... 

Never seen a full lug on an extractor before. 

EDT - Eff me, I didn't even catch this when I got it - full lug on the extractor.  Now, I'm trying to remember if I dropped the BCG on a chambered round or not.  I'll test that soon. Not gonna do it in the house, you know, just because...  :)

 Check my photo's of the two Bolts above , you can see the DPMS Bolt has the Extractors Lug the same as the DWilson .Not sure how it will work with single loading , I try not to do it .I measured them I believe in one of the posts on this thread .You going to make me look , LOL

You can see the Lug on the DPMS Is the same , although its used & worn .

Edited September 11, 2015 by survivalshop

[unclemoak]

He is - he's active in what's going on, trust me.

I'm still here. I've gotten a little less stringent on following this thread since the forum changed over and I can't make sense of what is what.

I did call and left a voicemail with survivalshop just a bit ago. 

 

Give me a bit to digest everything that seems to be going on in this thread since I last posted.

[survivalshop]

 I got your email & voice mail . See if my crude measurements make any sense to you . Of all the people , you will know if the small differences even mean anything , maybe I'm just grasping at straws .

[survivalshop]

  Went to the range today , it was sunny when I left & as soon as I got to the range some crap blew in from the Ocean & it proceeded to come down in buckets , waited for a half hour & it slowed down a little ,so while I was waiting I installed the DWilson Bolt in the BC of my 16" 308AR & loaded a twenty rounds up & with the original Extractor that came with the Bolt , it failed to Extract right off the bat , I changed to the Extractor that came with the Kit , marked with " Match " on it & dumped the entire twenty round mag . I did work on the original extractor , so I may have done something to make it malfunction , so I just wrote it off & will test it some more next range trip .

 Because it started to pour a Monsoon day out there I didn't test any further with any of the three 308AR's I brought with me , if I knew this crap would blow in I would have brought my Canopy & could have shot all day , but it was sunny all around & the range is only 10-12 miles away , WTF .

 I emailed DWilson with what happened today & said I believe its all about Tolerance Stacking with the different manufacturers of the components , Criterion , & his Bolt , not playing well together , like a lot of the other things these 308AR's have issues with . I will do more testing & I will order another Manufacturers Bolt today for testing with this 18" barrel .

 This DWilson Bolt worked flawlessly with the DPMS Extractor , but as I explained to DWilson , I didn't like the was the Pin fit , his Extractor pin just slid in with mild pressure on the Extractor , not so with the DPMS Extractor , I had to use a good amount of pressure to push the pin in , so I would not trust it to hold up for long. The Photo's in prior posts here show how the back end ( spring end ) on the DPMS sits lower in the Extractor channel also. 

 I will post on what Bolt I ordered in my build thread .

[survivalshop]

 Since I made my last post , I've been wondering what would cause a Bolt assembly to work with on barrel /Extension & not another , after all another Bolt works with this same Barrel/Extension . There has to be a key reason some where , might be just Tolerance stacking or maybe the amount of rounds through the Barrel/Extension , this 18" in question now has about 500 rds. out of it in just testing to see why this bolt has problems ejecting in this Barrel/Extension .

  I have to test this Bolt in my 20" & see if it works .& then test the other Bolts in this 18" to see if they work , using this same BC . Too bad it was a down pour , I could have gotten all this info & I think my Canopy is going with me from now on , I can use it as a sun shield if its not raining .

  Thing is all the Barrels are by the same manufacturer. Strange .

Edited September 17, 2015 by survivalshop

[EasyEJL]

I would think its tolerance stacking, that isn't a ridiculous possibility

[survivalshop]

     I've been thinking again  ( I know that could be dangerous ) But since the Wilson Bolt worked so well in the 16" , I decided to keep it there for now . I took the Shadow Ops Bolt from the BCG of the 16' & checked head space with the 18" & since it checked out Ok , I will try it in the 18" & if it runs, I don't need another Bolt . The Shadow Ops BCG only has as many rounds as the DWilson Bolt , so if it works , there shouldn't be a problem with switching them out Criterion to Criterion Barrel with such a low round count .

 I did take some of the measurements of the Shadow Ops Bolt as I did with the other two , so this will be interesting , because they are different from the other two .

[jtallen83]

Got some measurements on my Wilson Bolt;

Depth of the extractor groove best I could replicate your picture;

.0545           This could be the size of the depth pin not fitting the curve in the groove the same.

Depth of the extractor groove;

Front .175   Rear(spring seat) .175

Distance between the center of the extractor claw to the ejector;

.3275

Distance from the extractor lug to the opposite lug;

.853

The extractor spring;

.239

extractor spring from my Armalite spare parts;

.255

The Armalite spring with plug and ring is noticeably stiffer and snaps into the recess of the wilson extractor while the wilson double spring easily falls out. I'll try some shots with the Armalite spring installed.

If my issues continue after opening up the gas port more I will dig into the ejector and spring, for right now I don't want to mess with it, I don't have one of those fancy finger saving tools!